Proposed changes for next season

[WinForPooh]

Oh for heaven's sake! 

 

The BV of 4A is still complete BS though. ETA: According to how they've scaled all other axels, it should be valued in the same bracket as a quint, under a 5T.  

[Yatagarasu]

How do you manage to produce a typo in that tiny document of such importance you've been working on for months? I'd get fired within second but oh lol ISU is not accountable to anyone.

 

And well.

 

Sorry guys, but 4A is beyond certain people so poo poo on the difficulty, they will destroy it's BV just in case. 

Poor Axels. Unloved by ISU.

[EisElle]

1 hour ago, WinForPooh said:

Oh for heaven's sake! 

 

The BV of 4A is still complete BS though. ETA: According to how they've scaled all other axels, it should be valued in the same bracket as a quint, under a 5T.  

True, it has a whole half rotation more, so in theory it should be half way between a 4Lz and a hypotetic 5T...

 

There are many things I don't like in these changes, first of all that they are A LOT and there might be even more if the other proposals are approved. I know that when COP replaced 6.0 there were more, but if they want to keep the COP imo tweaks here and there would allow for better and better pondered changes and if things don't work out it's easy enough to find the culprit. But now we have change in BV, change in GOE range, change in GOE bullets  (that become even more generic and foggy), change in SOV, one jump less for Men, shorter FS for Men and iirc Pairs too, and possibly no repeated quad rule, no -1 deduction on falls, change in PCS factoring and so on 

Has ISU run some simulations? Apparently they tested things already but could they please share those simulations? So they don't drive crazy the very audience they want to appeal?(simulations from an event like Tallin Trophy should be fine, if GPF would be too controversial, with top skaters from all major skating feds involved...)

 

I'm not quite sold on GOE being so much more dependent on BV. For example, it only makes the gap between average 4T and average 4Lz bigger. WHY? You are already taking into account the added difficulty in the BV, why award the same difficulty twice? And let's not kid ourselves, merely landing a 4Lz is really what it takes to get inflated goe, while merely landing a 4T won't. How is this supposed to reward quality?

 

No step before jumps in SP is ridiculous, do you want to push people to show mastery on their jumps or not? Doing a jump out of steps that can still check first  3 bullets deserves more than just one added goe, in particular if you don't force skaters to show IF they can even jump out of steps. Then ISU could as well stop asking for Axel-type of jump in SP, too. Or certain type of combo. Why would having steps into your triple be any less prove of technical ability than showing you can jump a 3-2?

(Also the bullet for steps preceding jumps has become even more generic, as if it wasn't generic enough)

 

I don't like the reduced score for max goe lv4 stsq and spins. If you want to push for jump contests, ISU, just say so and spare us the whole fake worry about artistry and balanced programs and grabbing more audience. Audience, generic audience more so, LOVES pretty spins. And they LOVE pretty stsq too, because, you know, pretty stsq actually work with music and tbh music and pretty things are a BIG reason why generic audience watches FS, as they really can't tell a quad from a triple, or a lutz from a toe. Making skaters shift even more of their focus on jumps won't get you well-rounded skaters who can skate and spin and grab generic audience.

 

I don't like that ChSq, which can consist of a single move in the field (it shouldn't, but oh well) can score higher than a technically harder and physically much more demanding element like stsq.

I don't like 4Lo becoming a cinderella compared to 4F, given that the reasoning loop jump is easier because of more natural PR is BS, as there are very prerotated flip out there that are still getting full credit. So, considering the added strain to the hips, the lack of toe pick assistance to get the vault (so harder to get decent time of flight) and the greater degree of mastery required to get the timing right  (because timing is what makes the jump possible), in which world 4Lo is so much easier than a 4F just as prerotated? (Now, if PR was addressed and extremely prerotated flip had BV chopped it would be different, maybe). 

I also don't like that the BV of 3Lo will be lowered, too. -Lo combo are harder and with higher risk of UR than -3T combo and ISU is making going for loop combo even less convenient...

 

I would be ok with a bonus for variety of clean quad AND triples but I don't like that skaters can't repeat quads. Then the next step would be telling ladies can't repeat triples, right, ISU? Maybe just try not to shoot sky high goe for ugly quads first? Because a 4F that takes the whole rink for the preparation should be in the range of a good 4T,  if you really value quality. But if you say skaters they NEED a barely minimum 4F because their high quality 4T CAN'T be repeated, you're not exactly promoting quality!

 

As for the Axel, why they dislike the poor jump so much? I guess they went: hey, let's make 3A score less, it's obviusly so easy that skaters don't feel challenged anymore...only that, wait, quads kings still have troubles on that more often than not 

And 4A...well, it's not like we hadn't seen it coming. I wish I could believe ISU aims to protect reckless skaters, lacking the proper technical foundations, from pursuing such a dangerous jump... But no.

 

 

[Katt]

I re-read the new goe bullets and seem like its easier to get +5 than the old +3 now. You need 5 bullets to archive +5, with the first 3 is a must. So a quad without steps can get +5. The 1,2,3 bullet are vague, how they measure very good height and length ? how you consider what's a good take off, good body position ? 
 - The same for chsq. Ice coverage is bullet 4 which means they don't need good ice coverage to reach +5
- A jump lack of 1/4 rotation is UR. Its use to be more than 1/4 
- ! sign on lz and F will get negative GOE. How ever I dont know if a good flutz (like Osmond's) can still get positve GOE if she fulfill other bullets ?
- How the GOE work for jump bonus in 2nd half ? Is it base on raw BV or bonus BV ?

 In short, I dont know how these rule change can encourage skater not to focus on jump jump jump 

[BWOZWaltz]

 

I wanted to share this re: 4A BV.

 

This tweeter's mother is extremely upset about 4A BV and quoting 'I'm p***ed off! I demand 4A BV to be 150 points. As soon as you've landed (4A) you're declared a winner & the competition is finished' And he/she's wondering if the mother's talking about the Quidditch Snitch 

[yuzupon]

1 hour ago, BWOZWaltz said:

And he/she's wondering if the mother's talking about the Quidditch Snitch 

 

BTW, here's Alice, converting more scores (Vasiljev's WC '18, Medvedeva and Zagitova's PC, Uno's WC '18), and I am copy pasting the entire post under spoiler, in case people don't want to click on the link and be directed away from this page.

Spoiler

 

Sure, here’s one example using Deniss’s WC18 FS: 

 

By the way, some of you guys don’t seem to get it that what I’m trying to do here is only conversion, i.e. translating scores from the old BV/SOV to the new one. Anyone who wants me to re-score all the elements and runs simulation with different layouts, you can do so yourself, send your imaginary protocol over, and I’ll do the conversion for you.

Here’s how Zhenya and Alina would fare under the new system, using their FS from PyeongChang:

Don’t let the absolute numbers fool you, the gap between them in the new system is actually slightly smaller than in the old system. It’s 2 vs 2.4 points.

 

In case anyone is interested in what it’d look like for a disastrous skate, see the below example from Shoma, also WC18:

Now a funny quirk of this new system is, when your jump BV is reduced due to a UR/edge call, the SOV of that element will scale down accordingly (it was not like that in the old system: a 4T< used to have the exact same SOV as that of a 4T). So, take Shoma’s two opening quads:

He fell on the 4Lo, but did not get a UR call for it, so from the old system to the new system, his total score for that element gets reduced by as much as 34%, both because of the BV slash and because a GOE of -5 in the new system, on a fully rotated quad loop, is equal to as much as -5.25 in deduction. 

Now on the 4F, he got a UR, and as a result of said funny quirk, his total score for that element goes down by only 10% in the new system. Because a GOE of -5 on a quad flip that was both under-rotated and resulted in a fall, is equal to only a -4.13 deduction in final score. 

This is true for all of the jumps, not just quads, so, well, if you are a skater with a chronic case of UR, your TES might actually be affected less compared to everyone else. How’s that for some food for thought huh? 

 

 

Quoting the ending part, which makes my head dizzy all over again:

"This is true for all of the jumps, not just quads, so, well, if you are a skater with a chronic case of UR, your TES might actually be affected less compared to everyone else. How’s that for some food for thought huh?"

[Katt]

Comparing the UR jump in 2 systems is such a delight !!!! The quad BV were reduce so of course it will worth less but for the triples,  actually the UR, lip/ flutz triple might worth more in new system.

- Lets see if a lady UR all the jump in her free skate with -1 GOE

 

 

	Old system	New system
2A<	1.8	2.23
3T<	2.3	2.83
3S<	2.4	2.91
3lo<	2.9	3.31
3F< or 3Fe	3.0	3.38
3lz< or 3lze	3.5	3.99

 

- And with  falls : 

 

	Old system	New system
2A<	0.8	1.24
3T<	0.9	1.57
3S<	1.0	1.61
3lo<	1.5	1.84
3F< or 3Fe	1.6	1.99
3lz< or 3lze	2.1	2.21

Wow wow wow

 

(Please let me know if I did the math right ....)

 

[Neenah]

3 minutes ago, Katt said:

Comparing the UR jump in 2 systems is such a delight !!!! The quad BV were reduce so of course it will worth less but for the triples,  actually the UR/wrong edge triple might worth more in new system.

- Lets see if a ladies UR all the jump in her free skate with -1 GOE

 

 

	Old system	New system
2A<	1.8	2.23
3T<	2.3	2.83
3S<	2.4	2.91
3lo<	2.9	3.31
3F<	3.0	3.38
3lz<	3.5	3.39

 

- And with  falls : 

 

	Old system	New system
2A<	0.8	1.24
3T<	0.9	1.57
3S<	1.0	1.61
3lo<	1.5	1.84
3F<	1.6	1.99
3lz<	2.1	2.21

Wow wow wow

 

[Yatagarasu]

[Pamigena]

18 hours ago, Neenah said:

Except they clearly say in the "reductions for errors section"that a UR jump (sign <) gets a -2 to -3 GOE.

 

Now I may be doubting my math skills but this seems clear cut to me, a UR jump cannot be more than +3 GOE no matter how pretty it is, right?!!!!!!

 

I'm in no position to crunch numbers anyway, and stuff like that just confuses the heck out of me even more.

 

ISU: When you have a fall or a serious error on a technical element, your PCS in these components will be capped at this number.

Also ISU: Here's a list of scores you can get with +5 GOE on jumps with technical errors.

 

Like, huh? How did they manage to put more specific numbers on the "max PCS due to tech error" than on the "max GOE due to tech error"? Am I missing something or are they actually listing scores that should be impossible? But let me guess, it comes down to the "should be" phrasing once again? Just like a fall "should be" scored like a fall and not like a creative exit?

 

I swear they are giving me no incentive whatsoever to actually try and fully understand this mess they call a scoring system

[hoodie axel]

 Lovely!

 

So Zhou, Uno, Chen power trio.

 

[Sombreuil]

47 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

 

I swear they are giving me no incentive whatsoever to actually try and fully understand this mess they call a scoring system

They aren't aiming for 'transparency ' ( how much do I hate this use of that word- let me count-). They're looking for a complex system to be interpreted by the judges they appoint via th various Feds.  I don't think I need to elaborate on what I think of that idea.

[Moria Polonius]

11 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

Oh for heaven's sake! 

 

The BV of 4A is still complete BS though. ETA: According to how they've scaled all other axels, it should be valued in the same bracket as a quint, under a 5T.  

 

Yeah, there's a 2.1 point increase between a 3Lz and 3A and only 1pt increase between 4Lz and 4A. The only reason for that, that I can see, tbh, is to specifically disadvantage Yuzu, just in case he manages to get that 4A. I bet the gap will increase the day Yuzu announces his retirement, though.

 

Other changes though, if judges apply the GOE even half-correctly, seem beneficial for Yuzu. That "steps required before a solo jump" was a dead regulation anyway, at least they stopped pretending they care about that.

 

Altogether, seeing those base values etc, I'm suddenly for "no quad repetition" and "bonus for all type of jumps completed cleanly" as well.

[Pamigena]

11 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

They aren't aiming for 'transparency ' ( how much do I hate this use of that word- let me count-). They're looking for a complex system to be interpreted by the judges they appoint via th various Feds.  I don't think I need to elaborate on what I think of that idea.

 

yeah in theory I know that  I sometimes just wish they were a little more subtle about it. But on average the ISU has about as much in common with subtlety as Las Vegas does with an Amish village.

[Moria Polonius]

On 23.05.2018 at 9:45 PM, Katt said:

The old system with +3 GOE and 3 factor (1.0 ; 0.7 ; 0.5) is already hard enough to remember and explain to new/casual fan let alone that every element might has it own GOE factor.I don't think I have enough patience and tolerence to read all of these SOV. Too many number hurt my eyes. If this get through the congress, I may need a new glasses 

This is a reason why FS will never become a high profile sport. Even long time fans can't understand the scoring most of the time. 

 

Actually, I think the percentage system is MUCH easier to explain to a casual fan. Each element has a certain number of points. If you're awesome and get grade 5  on it (in my country, 5 is the highest school mark, lol, it would be really simple here to understand), you get 50% extra, if you're ok and get a 2, you get 20% extra, if you mess up and get -3, they take away 30%.