General Skating Chat

[moni]

2 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

Totally unrelated to anything, but regarding layouts:

Anyone knows what specific step is the one Yuzuru does after his 3A in this new Chopin's SP? Is it a simple 3-turn, with an arms movement coordinated with it? Well, I guess I shouldn't call it simple, since it's with the landing foot of the 3A xD 

 

Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I think, right after the Axel he did this: RBO-RBI change of edge + RBI-RFI counter + RFI twizzles. And it's definitely not simple  

[Murieleirum]

2 hours ago, moni said:

 

Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I think, right after the Axel he did this: RBO-RBI change of edge + RBI-RFI counter + RFI twizzles. And it's definitely not simple  

 

Oooh, I mistook a counter for a 3-turn and totally bypassed the change of edge. That's what I get for trying to guess when I have no idea what I'm doing xD At least I can distinguish the twizzles tho! He worked hard for them, amirite (re: twizzle sandwich 3A swan)

[Yatagarasu]

I am sorry for interrupting the current talk but just a little notice.

If you're wondering why the topic suddenly shrunk, I have moved all the talk about jump landings, mechanics of it, etc into it's separate post, so that all the skaters can be discussed there as well as the very principals of good technique!

you can find it here

 

[xeyra]

So I've done a very rough set of average statistics of the Top 6 men in the 2016-2017 season. I've only included in the averages competitions that were ISU sanctioned (Challenger series, GP, Championships and WTT). I've gathered the GOE for every jump pass, spin and sequence, calculated some averages and came up with the numbers in the Excel file below. 

 

This is probably really convoluted and could have a lot more interesting info or be way clearer, but every guy managed to f*ck up their layouts a thousand times so I don't care, this is what you get. Disclaimer: I can't math for shit, so this is all excel's doing. Also didn't do any percentages. Sorry!

 

GOE AVERAGES OF THE TOP 6 MEN 2016/2017 SEASON

NOTES:

• There are 8 tabs: overall summary; GOE element average summary; skater's individual GOEs and averages per competitions;
• Whenever the first jump of a combo was popped, I added it to one of the general popped combo categories - this was a way of keeping my sanity;
• Any jump-REP was included in that jump's statistics (so if you jumped two 4Ts and one was a fall with REP, I counted both GOEs under 4T);
• The averages are calculated as thus: element average on the end column; GOE average of each competition (in pink); total GOE average of each element (in bold italics - basically I averaged the averages instead of adding them up);
• The totals are calculated as thus: total falls, total under-rotations/downgrades (in this I counted every marked < or << in a protocol, including on the half loops!), total edge calls (! or e) and total pops;
• The GOEs were added in regardless of whether the jump was downgraded or underrotated, or the level of spins or step sequences.

 

OBSERVATIONS:

• Shoma is the only man with absolutely no pops in the ISU sanctioned events. He didn't even pop anything in his other (not counted) events. Nathan and Boyang were very close (then WTT happened). Basically, these guys have learned their lesson: rotate your quads!;
• Yuzuru is the real popstar of the bunch, as we all knew. However, he shares the honor of less number of falls with Javi and Boyang;
• Shoma has managed to fall a total of 12 times (8+4), if you count ALL his competitions, but he also had like 10 competitions to everyone's 5-7 (not counting Nationals);
• Nathan and Patrick also liked to fall a lot (11). Marina's boys solidarity;
• Javi needs to REALLY change his three jump combo from his 3F since he always gets an unclear (!) edge on it;
• Despite being the best popstar in the World (sorry Keiji), Yuzuru managed to nonetheless have the highest GOE total averages both in the SP and FS. He's an alien alright.
• All the GOE averages, when you look at it, weren't particularly high from anyone because of all the crap popped, fallen on, two-footed, stepped-out, etc. All the men were consistently a mess.

 

Let me know if there's anything wrong, any data you suggest I add or modify, anything that needs clarifying, whatever. 

 

Edit: Detected a mistake (didn't count Javi's 4S pop in a SP) so corrected the link.

Edit 2: I should have probably separated by GOE averages of jumps, spins and sequences, because of the differences in multiplier for each element. Fixed!

Edit 3: Updated Nathan's SP averages due to error on the fields being counted for the data. It's now correct. 

[xeyra]

Next week I'll try to work on jump percentages unless someone wants to beat me to it.

[Murieleirum]

Thank you SO much for the hard work, and hey, this is more than a FANCY graphic! 

 

As I suspected, Yuzu's GOE averages are higher than anyone else's, and not even that small of a difference. 4,5 points total of difference between him and Shoma, 5 points difference between him and Javier. This WITH the judges' candies, WITH the pops, with everything. This boy lives on Planet Hanyu. 

So, we were right to say that the points Yuzu might initially 'lose' in BV, he actually regains through GOE. Even more so, if he manages not to pop as much as he did this past season xD 

 

Oh God, you should totally show this to Max. He would love it! 

 

This is just one of the many averages that prove Yuzuru IS still the most consistent, and consistently on top of EVERYTHING. 

 

[xeyra]

I've now opened the tables for edits (it was late, I uploaded it but forgot to open in Google Sheets), if anyone wants to fiddle with stuff, try some functions, add in some data, etc. 

 

For example, I'll be adding fields for the BV, scores and PCS on each of the 6 men's tabs as well. Might be interesting to see the variation between their highest and lowest scores. Feel free to add in the data if you want. And now that's done as well.

 

An interesting observation: Nathan and Boyang's average BV in their FS was about 10-20 points higher than most other men's average BV. Highest BV was Nathan's at Worlds (112.87). Lowest was Patrick's at Finlandia Trophy (71.62). 

[ralucutzagy]

 

[ralucutzagy]

 

[Murieleirum]

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

I've now opened the tables for edits (it was late, I uploaded it but forgot to open in Google Sheets), if anyone wants to fiddle with stuff, try some functions, add in some data, etc. 

 

For example, I'll be adding fields for the BV, scores and PCS on each of the 6 men's tabs as well. Might be interesting to see the variation between their highest and lowest scores. Feel free to add in the data if you want. And now that's done as well.

 

An interesting observation: Nathan and Boyang's average BV in their FS was about 10-20 points higher than most other men's average BV. Highest BV was Nathan's at Worlds (112.87). Lowest was Patrick's at Finlandia Trophy (71.62). 

 

I am nerding so much, it's not even real. Thank you so much again for all the info added!

To me it's interesting when: 

1) You observe Hanyu and Fernandez. Yuzuru has higher GOE in the Short, higher GOE in the Free, higher BV in the Free, higher total score in the Free and higher total GOE combined. BUT, since he has a lower BV in the Short (because he popped his combination so many times) (lower by 5 points, which is not little), he ends up having a lower final score average in the Short (lower by 5 points, which is not little). 

As a result, Fernandez's PCS in the Free are higher as well, even though his final score in the Free is lower than Hanyu's by 5 points.

To me, this confirms what many people have been saying: Yuzuru's mistakes in the Short cost him a lot in the Free, especially PCS wise, and this is probably how the judges justified his 97 presentation score at Helsinki, which, if you ask Max Ambesi, was a scandal.  

 

I think Yuzuru thought about this hard, when he decided what program to have in the Short. He knows very well how much his mistakes in LGC cost him, during the whole season. They made him risk the gold at Worlds, they made him lose the gold at 4CC, and so on. 

 

I really hope Chopin 3.0 will finally give him the satisfaction to reach his full potential in score, both in the Short and in the Free. 

[xeyra]

23 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I am nerding so much, it's not even real. Thank you so much again for all the info added!

To me it's interesting when: 

1) You observe Hanyu and Fernandez. Yuzuru has higher GOE in the Short, higher GOE in the Free, higher BV in the Free, higher total score in the Free and higher total GOE combined. BUT, since he has a lower BV in the Short (because he popped his combination so many times) (lower by 5 points, which is not little), he ends up having a lower final score average in the Short (lower by 5 points, which is not little). 

As a result, Fernandez's PCS in the Free are higher as well, even though his final score in the Free is lower than Hanyu's by 5 points.

To me, this confirms what many people have been saying: Yuzuru's mistakes in the Short cost him a lot in the Free, especially PCS wise, and this is probably how the judges justified his 97 presentation score at Helsinki, which, if you ask Max Ambesi, was a scandal.  

 

Hey, 97 wasn't so bad a number. I'd give him more GOEs before I thought about changing the PCS. PCS can be quite subjective, especially the last three categories, so I never quite criticize them too much. 97ish was also what he got the first time he skated Seimei clean, at NHK. 

 

Yuzu's greatest strength is his GOEs, which helped him a lot when he f*cked up his layouts with pops or falls. GOEs can also be Javi and Patrick's strengths, but they were even more inconsistent in them and they already have lower BV. Shoma, on the other hand, has almost as much GOE as Yuzu and similar, if not higher, BV. Shoma also had what seems to be less variance in scores and GOEs. This is where the idea of high consistency comes. I wonder what's the best way to calculate variance. I don't think just seeing the difference between the highest and lowest score is enough? 

 

Nathan and Boyang had HUGE amounts of BV but aside from GPF or Worlds, respectively, their GOEs weren't particularly high (nor their PCS). 

 

I'm going to add to the first tab's table the BV, PCS and Score averages for easier comparison. Anything else you or anyone thinks might be useful to also add, let me know, aside from the promised jump rate percentages, which are going to be another nightmare (though @sallycinnamon already did Yuzu's before).

 

Also, I've now actually opened the google sheet for editing, because I was dumb and had it view only. 

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

Yuzu's greatest strength is his GOEs, which helped him a lot when he f*cked up his layouts with pops or falls. GOEs can also be Javi and Patrick's strengths, but they were even more inconsistent in them and they already have lower BV. Shoma, on the other hand, has almost as much GOE as Yuzu and similar, if not higher, BV. Shoma also had what seems to be less variance in scores and GOEs. This is where the idea of high consistency comes. I wonder what's the best way to calculate variance. I don't think just seeing the difference between the highest and lowest score is enough? 

 

Well, 97 wasn't a low number, but if you think about the performance... yes, I'd still say underscored. I think, had he skated clean at the Short, he would have been given higher PCS. Hope and Legacy is still a harder program than Seimei (and I think his jumps in H&L were actually better), so I think it would have been normal to get higher PCS! But it's just a small difference. 

 

Yes, Shoma's strenght for now is his 'consistency' which makes him gain GOE's and PCS. Though, his consistency is partly given by his questionable jump technique, so who knows, maybe next year there will be more calls for underrotation or wrong edge and his GOE's will be a bit settled. (I will admit, I am bitter because of his +3 GOE on his 3A, while this year Yuzuru was almost never given +3 GOE in anything?)

 

[xeyra]

6 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Well, 97 wasn't a low number, but if you think about the performance... yes, I'd still say underscored. I think, had he skated clean at the Short, he would have been given higher PCS. Hope and Legacy is still a harder program than Seimei (and I think his jumps in H&L were actually better), so I think it would have been normal to get higher PCS! But it's just a small difference. 

 

Yes, Shoma's strenght for now is his 'consistency' which makes him gain GOE's and PCS. Though, his consistency is partly given by his questionable jump technique, so who knows, maybe next year there will be more calls for underrotation or wrong edge and his GOE's will be a bit settled. (I will admit, I am bitter because of his +3 GOE on his 3A, while this year Yuzuru was almost never given +3 GOE in anything?)

 

 

Yuzu got some +3 GOE on his SP 3A but didn't get any in his 3A combos in the FS. I suspect 3A2T may not achieve close to +3 GOE any time soon, compared to 3A3Ts and other harder combos, unless he skates last and has a good SP, at which point the judges might be more generous. The times he did do 3A2T this season he either popped his 4S combo to a 2S-3T or didn't pop his combo but skated earlier. Same thing for his 3A1Lo3S, which also didn't work out entirely well (some UR/DR in the half loop, from a shaky 3A landing, and sometimes a 2S instead of a 3S) or was replaced by a 4T combo.

[Katt]

I think his 97 PCS at WC is ok, since its the first time he skate clean FS this season. I know judges wouldn't give him 98pcs like Seimei, and given how they underscored his FS the whole season, I even expected 95-96 pcs. H&L is harder but it depend alot on Yuzuru himself to make it work aka skate cleanly. Meanwhile Seimei has a very unique theme/character and its the kind of program can shine on choreo alone. I don't have any word on his GOE since its massively underscore like many people said. 

[Murieleirum]

2 minutes ago, Katt said:

I don't have any word on his GOE since its massively underscore like many people said. 

 

Well, but it's the same thing, you know. If you skate a perfect program, if all of your jumps are +3GOE (even if you don't give them 3GOE, you know they're perfect), if all the technical elements are superb, if half the public was in tears when he finished skating because of how much they were moved... that 0,25 GOE out of one jump, the 0,75 GOE of that one other jump, all these little underscorings sum up, creating a "massive" underscoring, but could have been filled by a 98, or maybe even 99 Presentation score. I agree 100% with Max on this: the judges didn't have the balls to give him 100, but that's exactly the score he deserved. Never in the history of figure skating we've seen a Program performed like H&L was in Helsinki. 

To me, the 100 score exists for a reason. Not using it when it's the case, it's just chicken behavior.