General Skating Chat

[singcarcom]

2 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

Sorry, can't understand you.

By "not as elegant", I meant it's like 100% vs 99.8%. Sorry didn't make that clear. XD   Even when Yuzu pops his axels, it's beautiful. =P

And I'm referring to those 3A where he might be toying with the idea of 4A?

[liv]

So, basically they say they want the quads to be of higher quality,  nicer and cleaner, to get the marks....rather than trying the hard stuff and doing it poorly just to get the high BV.... great, sounds good in theory, but since quality is subject to the eye of the judge it could be just another way to abuse the system and give marks to a favourite, or not reward others.

 

I prefer to believe it would reward someone like Yuzu, who should be getting +3 GOE on his jumping passes when he is skating well... but I've been watching skating for too many decades to believe that the right things always occur. As always, though, watch and wait and hope.

 

 

[Summer]

21 hours ago, singcarcom said:

I agree. They should make it mandatory for judges to watch more slow-mo replays before awarding GOEs. PCS can be subjective, but not GOEs. If non-experts can spot URs, edges and other issues with slow-mo, the judges have no excuses.  I also think Yuzu will benefit more from this because he's often so fast that judges can't catch how brilliant his jumps are. 

 

Just to point out that currently only tech panels can use slow-mo. The judges don’t get to watch anything on slow-mo, they can only review in normal speed when giving GOE.

 

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction

"....At ISU Events, Judges may review in real time certain elements of the skaters’ performances by means of an instantaneous Video Replay System."

[singcarcom]

6 minutes ago, Summer said:

Just to point out that currently only tech panels can use slow-mo. The judges don’t get to watch anything on slow-mo, they can only review in normal speed when giving GOE.

 

Do you think it's possible to change this? Perhaps let the judges watch only 1 slow-mo before finalizing their GOE scores? It doesn't really take that much time does it? And wouldn't that cause less controversy in judging?

[gladi]

On 8/27/2017 at 0:02 AM, SparkleSalad said:

 

I was wondering why he was having trouble with his 3a landings in his exhibition this season. We only got to see those beautiful twizzles out of it once or twice. Is there a reason it would only affect galas, though?

 

My eyes are still babies about this but I rewatched the Ienai yo 3a in slow-mo and I think I see what you mean. Instead of a symmetrical arc the angle is forced down at the end by the landing leg?

 

It's true for Ienaiyo he has had to check the landing with his knees. (http://dai.ly/x5yavl9?start=998) On rewatch, the back-counter was really quick and he didn't seem to have enough of an extension and swing from his free leg on takeoff. So the likely problem was that the takeoff was too quick. The jump was slightly lower, and the landing was lower for it. (People would kill for that landing anyway.)

 

The 3A in Yokohama (http://dai.ly/x5x88gj?start=14) doesn't have the same low landing. Nor those at the open practice on media day. In fact, my sense was quite the opposite. Those during media day were bigger, and he had ample time in the air to open and land (like previously mentioned in the thread).

[Yatagarasu]

About the gala 3As from this past season - what he's attempting there is a twizzle-3A-twizzle, which is by no means an easy thing to do. You have to control the momentum you have from the rotations on ice and the speed from moving across it (the skater is both rotating and moving across the ice on one foot at the same time), and then from that, into a jump, and from that, into yet another twizzle.

Then all of that, under the gala lights which make things double difficult. He really does know how to make his own life hard. 

 

I don't see any problems with his 3As apart from the usual bobble here and there, which is normal. 

[kaeryth]

@gladi & @Yatagarasu Yay! Thank you for the explanation!

What do you guys thinks of the possible change in rules? Re: Lower BV for quads?

[Summer]

18 hours ago, singcarcom said:

 

Do you think it's possible to change this? Perhaps let the judges watch only 1 slow-mo before finalizing their GOE scores? It doesn't really take that much time does it? And wouldn't that cause less controversy in judging?

There is a clear division of labor: while the tech panel concentrates on the nitty-gritty the judges are interrested in more general impression of things.

 

Watching 1 slow-mo would lead to a whole new set of questions like if all the judges watch the same one who decides which one it is. And if everyone watches different ones the GOEs would most likely end up varying even more than they do already.

 

I believe it can only change if their idea of what the judges do changes to more detail oriented. Since that takes more time they would need to introduce a new (third) panel whose only job is to give GOE. Because that requires money, I don’t think it’ll happen any time soon.

[Yatagarasu]

15 hours ago, kaeryth said:

@gladi & @Yatagarasu Yay! Thank you for the explanation!

What do you guys thinks of the possible change in rules? Re: Lower BV for quads?

 

Not happy with the idea if the solution is lower BV + increase the range of GOEs. That leaves a lot more room for judges to fudge and there is absolutely no way to prevent that. Politicking is something that is never going to go away. 

 

So if we have that it will really just increase the problems we currently have. At the moment, skaters can count on a certain number of points even if they cannot count on the GOEs, regardless of how they perform the jump. GOEs often end up being a product of reputation and politicking far more than what is actually happening on the ice but at least there's a guaranteed number of points BV offers. If they increase the GOE range while lowering the BV, the space for score manipulation just increases exponentially, and there will be manipulation, there is no doubt about that. It leaves the scores way more in the hands of the judges, than the hands of the skaters, and that is never a good thing.

 

Just the GOE range increase doesn't guarantee us anything either, the judges will have to actually apply the rules, which is again up in the air but at least the BV would remain as it is for federations without much influence and other iffy stuff. Also, I think they're playing with fire, if they go for that mixed solution because scandals are so going to increase and IOC is not going to be happy. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

33 分ぐらい, Murieleirumさんが言いました:

 

I can see how launching for a 4A may be terrifying as well. It's super high, there's so much speed and strenght, I can see how it gives you that athletic high very easily (and not only that, of course, but quads in general, and this is why I think so many young athletes want to do them).

 

I'm no expert but to my admittedly untrained eyes some of his biggest 3As seem to have already sufficient height and distance for a 4A, by virtue that they look bigger than most quads out there, his own included. And because of that, each time I see these big 3As, especially those in practice, it's like I'm seeing him jump it in slo-mo possibly because his rotations weren't as fast in comparison to the time he spent up in the air. So I can only surmise that all he hasn't shown us yet, is a higher rotation speed. Because everything else, he more or less already has. I could be underestimating it, because what I do know, really. But either way, that's the feeling I'm getting.

[Murieleirum]

3 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I'm no expert but to my admittedly untrained eyes some of his biggest 3As seem to have already sufficient height and distance for a 4A, by virtue that they look bigger than most quads out there, his own included. And because of that, each time I see these big 3As, especially those in practice, it's like I'm seeing him jump it in slo-mo possibly because his rotations weren't as fast in comparison to the time he spent up in the air. So I can only surmise that all he hasn't shown us yet, is a higher rotation speed. Because everything else, he more or less already has. I could be underestimating it, because what I do know, really. But either way, that's the feeling I'm getting.

 

I don't know a lot about jumps, so I'm in your same boat. I feel like your impression of him rotating 'more slowly' the 3A compared to the quads is due to the fact that he's kicking that leg up to get that height, then he rotates, and then he lands more than comfortably because he has the speed and height and lenght to complete 3 rotations (and a half) with no problem. But I think the speed of rotation is the same, because if you think about it most quads only have 3.5 rotations in the air, which is the same rotation that 3A has. But while that 0.5 rotation is spent (with quads) with entry and landing, somehow with the Axel there's no added 0.5 rotation, so it looks as if he's in the air, doing nothing. I don't know if I'm going anywhere with this. LOL. The point is that I think that his speed of rotation is the same. Only, with quads the rotation starts earlier and ends late, while with the Axel it starts 'mid-air' and ends earlier. 

 

What I think is missing for him to do the 4A isn't higher rotation speed, but more speed (which equals more distance) and more height. Not a lot, just 17 cm. If he gets those elements, he will have more air time to do that fourth rotation more. But such a huge jump is hard to land, because of all that energy. One thing I'm sure of: it will be the most beautiful and impressive jump ever landed. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

1 時間前, Murieleirumさんが言いました:

 

I don't know a lot about jumps, so I'm in your same boat. I feel like your impression of him rotating 'more slowly' the 3A compared to the quads is due to the fact that he's kicking that leg up to get that height, then he rotates, and then he lands more than comfortably because he has the speed and height and lenght to complete 3 rotations (and a half) with no problem. But I think the speed of rotation is the same, because if you think about it most quads only have 3.5 rotations in the air, which is the same rotation that 3A has. But while that 0.5 rotation is spent (with quads) with entry and landing, somehow with the Axel there's no added 0.5 rotation, so it looks as if he's in the air, doing nothing. I don't know if I'm going anywhere with this. LOL. The point is that I think that his speed of rotation is the same. Only, with quads the rotation starts earlier and ends late, while with the Axel it starts 'mid-air' and ends earlier. 

 

What I think is missing for him to do the 4A isn't higher rotation speed, but more speed (which equals more distance) and more height. Not a lot, just 17 cm. If he gets those elements, he will have more air time to do that fourth rotation more. But such a huge jump is hard to land, because of all that energy. One thing I'm sure of: it will be the most beautiful and impressive jump ever landed. 

 

Heh, you're probably right. In any case, I'd take your theory over my own shaky one any day. It's just that his 3A is certainly a lot bigger and longer than the 3As of others, who seem like they're on the air about the same amount of time as they are when they're doing quads, so my layman logic tells me that if he stays in the air for that much longer when he does his 3A than when others do theirs, it stands to reason he has enough time for one more rotation. Cos c'mon, it's just one more rotation. That's certainly less than the two he imposed on that other poor kid. >_<

 

(Lol. I know there's probably a lot more to it than what my layman brain is assuming. Just wanted to put it out there how I came to this overly simple conclusion.)

[Xen]

I do wonder what his total airtime is for his 3A.  There was a website that mentioned airtime, and minimum jump height needed for different jumps.

[Murieleirum]

42 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Heh, you're probably right. In any case, I'd take your theory over my own shaky one any day. It's just that his 3A is certainly a lot bigger and longer than the 3As of others, who seem like they're on the air about the same amount of time as they are when they're doing quads, so my layman logic tells me that if he stays in the air for that much longer when he does his 3A than when others do theirs, it stands to reason he has enough time for one more rotation. Cos c'mon, it's just one more rotation. That's certainly less than the two he imposed on that other poor kid. >_<

 

(Lol. I know there's probably a lot more to it than what my layman brain is assuming. Just wanted to put it out there how I came to this overly simple conclusion.)

 

Just as an example, look at his attempt here:

 

He does do 4 rotations in the air here (put it in 0.25 speed and you'll count 4 turns clearly), but he lacks that final 0.5 because he had height but he didn't have enough speed. So, he needs just a little bit power than that, and he's done it. (He has already rotated more than the skater who attempted before him). Plus, Max said Yuzuru landed it. I believe everything Max says. So, now it's just a question of training it to stabilize it, which will come post Pyeongchang, hopefully! 

Think of the 4Lz... we've seen close to zero attempts from him, and yet one month ago we hear that 'he has stabilized the jump and wonders where to put it' LOL. I feel like what Yuzuru calls 'quad training' is just: train your usual way, and go for the jump. If you land it, good job! If you don't land it, think about why you didn't land it and next time you'll do better. 

 

I mean honestly, he trained 4Lz by putting it AT THE END OF HOPE AND LEGACY. 

 

This guy. 

[Murieleirum]

Oh, sorry if I provide no link, but in the most recent PINO upload, you can see Yuzuru's 4T3T in Chopin. He enters it after a series of 3 turns (new entrance from the ones he did in Faoi), which is the same entrance we've seen for Hana ni naru. Except that was "only" a 4T, while this was a 4T3T. Am I the last one to see this and everyone has finished drooling already, or what? 

that entry is crazy!