General Skating Chat

[SSS]

JW is someone who never? concerned about uno's jump...And he made bad joke on Yuzu...i highly doubt his words should be take into account...

[Xen]

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

His tweet there is quite confusing for anyone who's not really an expert, like myself... but in the comments below he does say, regarding Shoma's quad Flip, that it's not pre-rotated. It's just a 'messy tap'.

 

There is no way to tap forward on a toe jump. Technically it's also called picking the ice. But anyways, Uncle Kurt already called out the prerotation on tv during wc, wish more twitter commentators would listen to him.....

 

[kaeryth]

Oh Uncle Max... (in my dream...)

 

 

[SparkleSalad]

58 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

Oh Uncle Max... (in my dream...)

 

 

 

What a lovely dream. 

[kaeryth]

I just realised Uncle Max put 4T3T instead of COD

[Yuazz]

I believe yuzu will use layout from OP at Toronto. If anything doesn't go well till CoR, I bet he'll use plan B. Perhaps debuting his 4Lz. 

[katonice]

3 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

His tweet there is quite confusing for anyone who's not really an expert, like myself... but in the comments below he does say, regarding Shoma's quad Flip, that it's not pre-rotated. It's just a 'messy tap'.

 

Now I'm curious what he would call Satoko's pre-rotation?

(And now I'd like to go and look for slo-mos of Satoko's jumps as well.)

 

I don't really understand what he means by a "messy tap"?

Does he mean then that a pre-rotated jump is one where the tap happens when the skater is facing forward? Otherwise, they're just being messy with their tap?

I doubt anyone would do it that way intentionally though, and in that sense I guess he's also implying no one can pre-rotate a toe jump.

[CupidsBow]

He's saying that it is not considered pre-rotation (entering the jump facing forwards) and that pre-rotated jumps are rare amongst top skaters. By messy tap I believe he means a less than ideal body/foot position when striking the ice that is indicative of bad technique and should make the jump unable to score high GOE, but is not the same as a jump that is pre-rotated and needs a downgrade. The body might be turned enough that the jump entry looks messy, but it is not enough to call as pre-rotated. Which would be why Shoma doesn't have his jumps downgraded for PR.

[meoima]

4 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

His tweet there is quite confusing for anyone who's not really an expert, like myself... but in the comments below he does say, regarding Shoma's quad Flip, that it's not pre-rotated. It's just a 'messy tap'.

 

Jackie Wong is not a specialist though. Below is what a specialist think 

 

I am saying ISU clearly KNOW Shoma cheats the take-off in his jumps. It has definition in the ISU handbook. They just do not want to add too many things and change the whole judging system before the Olympic. 

 

And if you notice Jackie Wong's description, you can see that he does not outright attack Shoma as having cheated jumps. However, he does remind people gently that a "PURE TAP" like Nathan deserves higher GOE than a "MESSY TAP" by Shoma. Political action at its best. Of course he knows ISU won't punish bad take-off for at least a year. Now it is time to do politicking for American skaters. Like: "Yes we won't say anyone cheat, but our skaters deserves better."

 

BTW, in some ISU meetings, the experts there do address some problems with the current judging and they do point out various issues the fans have said. They just do not attack those issues for some various reasons.

[Xen]

2 hours ago, katonice said:

Now I'm curious what he would call Satoko's pre-rotation?

(And now I'd like to go and look for slo-mos of Satoko's jumps as well.)

 

I don't really understand what he means by a "messy tap"?

Does he mean then that a pre-rotated jump is one where the tap happens when the skater is facing forward? Otherwise, they're just being messy with their tap?

I doubt anyone would do it that way intentionally though, and in that sense I guess he's also implying no one can pre-rotate a toe jump.

I'll take Uncle Kurt's word over Jackie's. 

1) Jackie is correct that there is no forward toe tap. But seriously though, that's not the issue with pre-rotated jumps. NO freakin' jump is taught to take off with a forward toe tap (picking is the correct term). The pre-rotation is all about the pivoting off the picking toe for toe jumps. And turning and jumping off a  3 turn for edge jumps, where your toe pick is the last part to leave the ice. 

2) There are jumps that have pre-rotation built into them, somewhere between 90-180 degrees. These jumps are the toe loop, loop and the salchow. It is considered correct technique. For reference, I offer the following: 

Toe Loop: https://youtu.be/emXR9rVtISE

Salchow: https://youtu.be/wCId9mVFJw8

Loop:https://youtu.be/t4dz1jp1Eq0

 

However, the flip and the Lutz are different beasts. The flip does have a loop like section built into the jump, but that little section is based off a back pivot, however you don't usually need to really do a full loop to launch. There was a time when weaker jumpers were in fact taught to jump off a loop for a flip, however that's changed and considered poor technique that must be fixed.  For reference, these videos might help: 

How to do a flip: https://youtu.be/CnVqI_c7Lrs

Tom Z's lessons for Lutz and Flip: https://youtu.be/lSiFTO1e5Ls?list=PL9hcBiuqNVftTabS2pbS-VTTkdG1GanJi

Now, flip jumps do have a bit of a pivot to them, so if you want to give some skates the benefit of the doubt on a flip, I can understand. However, that does not apply to the lutz, and that is where leniency is a problem. A lutz is hard not just because it's a counter rotation, but it is the one jump that has so little pivoting allowed, it is the jump that is closest to a full rotation in the air.  

 

Can lutz jumps be pre-rotated, well yes, they can now. The pre-rotation again, is not due to the toe tap (picking) being forward, it's staying on the (right) toe pick for a very long duration, and allowing a very long pivot on that toe, so you essentially take off in a loop position (that is more forward). 

 

Now, I can forgive judges a bit on GOEs and PCS (except where flagerant), but tech panel should, in my opinion, be stricter. If this were a 100 meter race, the tech panel essentially makes sure that all the guys are starting on the same line and everyone is really running 100 meters, not 90 meters for 1 guy, 110 for another etc. So yeah, ISU get it right please. I don't think it will really detract from the glory and excitement that is figure skating, because there are guys and gals who have such good technique they can still crack those points barriers. And that they are the ones who should be looked upon as role models. Now if they don't call clearly, they're just muddling the waters, and making the politiking a bit too obvious. 

 

Disclaimer: I'm not adding axels because they are very different from the other jumps, and there is about a quarter turn on the ice before the skater fully launches up. I also think it's more encouraging for skaters from other feds if they truly know that their cleaner technique is acknowledged, especially if skaters from stronger feds are not being called on wrong technique. It's stupid to really think skaters themselves do not know who is cheating and who is not.

 

[katonice]

22 minutes ago, Xen said:

I'll take Uncle Kurt's word over Jackie's. 

1) Jackie is correct that there is no forward toe tap. But seriously though, that's not the issue with pre-rotated jumps. NO freakin' jump is taught to take off with a forward toe tap (picking is the correct term). The pre-rotation is all about the pivoting off the picking toe for toe jumps. And turning and jumping off a  3 turn for edge jumps, where your toe pick is the last part to leave the ice. 

2) There are jumps that have pre-rotation built into them, somewhere between 90-180 degrees. These jumps are the toe loop, loop and the salchow. It is considered correct technique. For reference, I offer the following: 

Toe Loop: https://youtu.be/emXR9rVtISE

Salchow: https://youtu.be/wCId9mVFJw8

Loop:https://youtu.be/t4dz1jp1Eq0

 

However, the flip and the Lutz are different beasts. The flip does have a loop like section built into the jump, but that little section is based off a back pivot, however you don't usually need to really do a full loop to launch. There was a time when weaker jumpers were in fact taught to jump off a loop for a flip, however that's changed and considered poor technique that must be fixed.  For reference, these 3 videos might help: 

How to do a flip: https://youtu.be/CnVqI_c7Lrs

Tom Z's lessons for Lutz and Flip: https://youtu.be/lSiFTO1e5Ls?list=PL9hcBiuqNVftTabS2pbS-VTTkdG1GanJi

Now, flip jumps do have a bit of a pivot to them, so if you want to give some skates the benefit of the doubt on a flip, I can understand. However, that does not apply to the lutz, and that is where leniency is a problem. A lutz is hard not just because it's a counter rotation, but it is the one jump that has so little pivoting allowed, it is the jump that is closest to a full rotation in the air.  

 

Can lutz jumps be pre-rotated, well yes, they can. The pre-rotation again, is not due to the toe tap (picking) being forward, it's staying on the (right) toe pick for a very long duration, and allowing a very long pivot on that toe, so you essentially take off in a loop position (that is more forward). 

 

Now, I can forgive judges a bit on GOEs and PCS (except where flagerant), but tech panel should, in my opinion, be stricter. If this were a 100 meter race, the tech panel essentially makes sure that all the guys are starting on the same line and everyone is really running 100 meters, not 90 meters for 1 guy, 110 for another etc. So yeah, ISU get it right please. I don't think it will really detract from the glory and excitement that is figure skating, because there are guys and gals who have such good technique they can still crack those points barriers. And that they are the ones who should be looked upon as role models. Now if they don't call clearly, they're just muddling the waters, and making the politiking a bit too obvious. 

 

Can we say then that Shoma's 4F has an acceptable degree of pre-rotation?

From what I see (and by no means am I an expert) he pre-rotates about 90deg on the ice.

I guess this is within the acceptable range of pre-rotation allowed?

(Although I guess some could say that he's almost facing forward when his toe pick leaves the ice.)

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, katonice said:

Can we say then that Shoma's 4F has an acceptable degree of pre-rotation?

From what I see (and by no means am I an expert) he pre-rotates about 90deg on the ice.

I guess this is within the acceptable range of pre-rotation allowed?

(Although I guess some could say that he's almost facing forward when his toe pick leaves the ice.)

This is where it pains me to say stuff about Shoma's jumps. Because I do not think he's a weak jumper (you really can't if you want to do quads).

In slow mo, there are times when his 4F appears right at 180, but then there are slow mo where his toe has pivoted beyond the 180 (closer to a 4, or 3 o'clock position). He almost never takes off from 90 degrees, it's almost always a minimum of 150 pivot on his right toe  and then press up for the 4F. Think he stretches 180 degrees allowed to the max.

 

Speaking of which, for the ones who did attend Helsinki, in real time who had greater height, Nate or Shoma? 

[CupidsBow]

28 minutes ago, katonice said:

Can we say then that Shoma's 4F has an acceptable degree of pre-rotation?

From what I see (and by no means am I an expert) he pre-rotates about 90deg on the ice.

I guess this is within the acceptable range of pre-rotation allowed?

(Although I guess some could say that he's almost facing forward when his toe pick leaves the ice.)

 

The TP can only apply a downgrade for pre-rotation if the jump is clearly forward facing on take off when reviewed at regular speed. Slow-mo reveals issues but if it's not a clear forward-facing take off at full speed, the PR isn't going to enter the scoring, though it should be dragging his GOE down.

TBH though I think when the TP can see there is a questionable amount of pre-rotation and a landing that looks even slightly UR,  they should be giving a < at least.

 

I wasn't at Helsinki but at 4CC is is pretty clear that Shoma lacks height on his jumps in comparison to the other top men. That's why he struggles so much with his landings.

 

[Xen]

1 minute ago, CupidsBow said:

 

The TP can only apply a downgrade for pre-rotation if the jump is clearly forward facing on take off when reviewed at regular speed. Slow-mo reveals issues but if it's not a clear forward-facing take off at full speed, the PR isn't going to enter the scoring, though it should be dragging his GOE down.

TBH though I think when the TP can see there is a questionable amount of pre-rotation and his landing looks even slightly UR, he should be getting a < at least.

 

I wasn't at Helsinki but at 4CC is is pretty clear that Shoma lacks height on his jumps in comparison to the other top men. That's why he struggles so much with his landings.

 

I think the lack of slow-mo is the issue. The difference between 180 and 220 is harder to ID at full speed, though there are times I suspect it even at full speed because his left leg is really odd. If I refer to Tom Z's video, a lutz should take off with both toe picks leaving the ice.This is because if pre-rotated too far, the left outside becomes a left inside, as the jump off point has a small flag-if you don't jump off, you will go into inside edge while you pivot.  So at full speed, I'd check whether the left free leg kicks away and out to be a lutz, or if it turns sideways and up for a flip. 

 

As for forward facing...well those soft knees help. He manages to do all that pivoting with his body twisting slower than his legs, so if you check between him and Nate's jumps, Nate's have a bit of a clear jerk up (his body perks up) when he launches, while Shoma's is smoother (like a loop). I really applaud that Shoma is trying to change his jumps, he's working hard like a maniac,  but I think his jump technique does do a disservice to the rest of his skating (and that goes back to who monitored his single or double jumps when he may have been too young to know the difference). 

[meoima]

12 minutes ago, Xen said:

I think the lack of slow-mo is the issue. The difference between 180 and 220 is harder to ID at full speed, though there are times I suspect it even at full speed because his left leg is really odd. If I refer to Tom Z's video, a lutz should take off with both toe picks leaving the ice.This is because if pre-rotated too far, the left outside becomes a left inside, as the jump off point has a small flag-if you don't jump off, you will go into inside edge while you pivot.  So at full speed, I'd check whether the left free leg kicks away and out to be a lutz, or if it turns sideways and up for a flip. 

 

As for forward facing...well those soft knees help. He manages to do all that pivoting with his body twisting slower than his legs, so if you check between him and Nate's jumps, Nate's have a bit of a clear jerk up (his body perks up) when he launches, while Shoma's is smoother (like a loop). I really applaud that Shoma is trying to change his jumps, he's working hard like a maniac,  but I think his jump technique does do a disservice to the rest of his skating (and that goes back to who monitored his single or double jumps when he may have been too young to know the difference). 

Nathan jumps higher and bigger than Shoma for sure.

Nathan's jumps do not have the biggest ice coverage though, compared to Boyang, his jumps are smaller. They had photos side by side to compare in the Ice Jewel magazine. Boyang's 4lz is really great but I am not sure his other quads (and other triples) are huge, maybe ok height and coverage but not super. 

Yuzuru and Patrick have biggest jumps. I think Patrick has biggest 4T3T and maybe biggest 3F, had he jumped 4F maybe it will be huge. Yuzuru has biggest edge jumps (4lo,4S, 3A). Javi have big quads but his triples not so big.