General Skating Chat

[Pammi]

On ‎23‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 6:48 PM, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

If the gods remain firmly by his side, victory is his. Because as far as complete skating goes, no one is closer to the mark than Hanyu. ISU knows this. That and, even while his BV isn't the highest, it's very, very, VERY  high still, and if he manages to develop the momentum he wants, he can basically command his GOEs, and to a certain extent, his PCS.

 

But he can't command the GOEs and PCS of others, especially if they skate clean, as well. While the overt lifting has so far still not been enough to overcome Hanyu's sheer skill even when he couldn't fully deliver his best, as was the case last season, no one can say for sure that the Olympic crazy won't eat so deeply into the brains of those calling the shots that they'll throw caution to the wind just to please those with money in their pockets. 

 

If this happens, the scandalized outrage after will likely be bigger than the Kim vs Sotnikova debacle due to a couple of reasons:

 

1) Hanyu has been a strong presence in the sport. And that's an understatement. He's even more of a giant in it now than Plushenko or Kim ever were (and these two were HUGE) in terms of pushing the sport forward, fanbase and results. In fact, this whole situation with all these strong contenders and their myriad quads wouldn't have emerged if it weren't for him. He may not have singlehandedly brought figure skating to this level, but he did at least 50% of the heavylifting. And that's a low estimate. FS fan or no,  anyone with eyes--and they only need to casually track the past seasons--and aren't obstinately kidding themselves due to reasons unknown, will draw the same conclusion. We're talking about a leap from 3-4 quads total for the most ambitious skaters back in 2014 to an average of 7ish quads total among the top contenders in 2018. If anyone tracks back the last few seasons to the last Olympics, they'll find that the only common denominator that stands out high above the rest throughout this particular cycle is none other than Hanyu. And if we match him up against other remarkable figureheads  in all the history of this sport, there has never been one even close to being like him ever.

 

2) No one in the men's field up to now, absolutely no one, is close to him in terms of overall skills. The nearest would be Chan and Fernandez and even they have been left far in the dust by Hanyu. This isn't an opinion, this is fact.  The younger skaters, a couple of them show promise but unless they slow down and reevaluate their overall objectives as to why they skate, they probably won't ever achieve the same level of perfection as Hanyu. Funny how, though, that they are the ones with a better chance of beating a clean Hanyu than the ones who are actually closer to the guy in skills. Some things won't ever compute, I guess. And I'm not sure how close Sotnikova's overall skills were to Kim's but one thing I'm sure of is there's no way the gap was as wide as it is between Hanyu and everyone else. Not even close. Kim is one-of-a-kind, a remarkable talent, but she's not the force of nature Hanyu is. She is 50% artist, 50% athlete (some might argue it's more 60-40, and if these are fans, maybe they know better). Hanyu is 50% artist, 250% athlete.

 

So it would almost be an inconsiderable stretch to put someone else, no matter how clean or how much higher their BV, above a pitch perfect Hanyu who's delivered a monster of a layout himself. Not unless, like I've said,  this person somehow manages to develop the same kind of completeness, if not better, than what has taken Hanyu, even with his advantage of talent, physique, indomitable spirit, relentless drive and sharply honed mind, his whole life to gain, in a few short months. Think that's gonna happen? I don't think so either. So a stretch it is. But not a stretch that shady business can't make happen if the people behind it want it badly enough to compromise the integrity of the Games to the point of no return and effectively completely lose the essence behind the sport.

 

If that happens, that'd be their problem, not Hanyu's. ISU would have had the most perfect representation of the sport they'll ever get for a long time to come, and if they want to squander the one chance that'll very likely bring in more long-term returns than the short-term ones shady dealings can only afford, well, it wouldn't be the first time something with so much potential gets flushed down the lavatory. Hanyu would have his ideal skate and thus at least won't have to beat himself up over having delivered something less than perfect. We fans will feel poorly for him for a while but I think we'll all be okay so long he has his dream skates, or as close to them as he possibly could get, that would go down in the annals of history and burn his name into the minds of the masses for good. Because those, my friends, are the true prizes.

 

So my only real concern is if he'd be able to put out those best skates he's been hankering to do on that particular stage probably since, I dunno, the Stone Ages or something.

 

...though I must say that I'm also mildly apprehensive that these beautiful skates, if they happen and the outcome still isn't as it should be, may potentially be overshadowed by the ugliness of the ensuing shitstorm. So...let's just hope they're wise enough to give him the gold medal if he delivers and save everyone and themselves a shit ton of grief.

Great post @¯\_(ツ)_/¯    thank you I really enjoyed reading your perspective, and found it hard not to agree !

[EisElle]

thank you @moni for your insights.

tbh I am always kind of surprised that Yuzuru doesn't trips during LGC step sequence because his speed is just insane, with so many abrupt changes in speed and direction.

Yuzu, please slow down! (who am I kidding, he's always done Chopin ballade step sequence at breakneck speed, and it will only get worse...)

2 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

There's a video out there in which Nobunari Oda and Shizuka Arakawa explain why Yuzu's step sequence in Hope and Legacy is so hard: the deep edges and the upper body movements. 

where where?

[robin]

I haven't watched the 4CC LGC in quite some time... it's not my favorite version of LGC bc of the StSq rather than the pop, actually. I'm not that well versed in requirements for step sequences but he was a little late for it after the sit spin and had to rush through the elements to catch up. I can imagine how that might have affected a few steps.

[Valkyria]

5 hours ago, moni said:

I think the reason Yuzu got Lv3 in Boston and 4CC is that he made a small mistake during some of his turns. Probably wrong/unclear edge or putting free foot down too soon or similar thing. Because of this, one/some of his turn/turns was/were not counted. Right now I can't tell the exact moment but maybe later when I have time I will watch it in slowmotion and check every turn carefully. It is something you can't notice in real time unless you are really an expert.

 

Why do some others get Lv4 so easily? 
It depends on a particular skater, some are just very good at steps (Patrick, Shoma...). But in general, many skaters don't do step sequence at such a high speed/such deep edges/so much upper body movement as Yuzu, thus are less prone to make a mistake and it is easier for them to do it more precisely. 

 

 

This, basically. Is not that the planned content of the step sequence changes, just small mistakes that make relevant turns/steps not count and make the skater miss some of the requirements for the level.

 

Still, it must have made Yuzuru very salty to get anything other than level 4 for LGC's step sequence, since it was built to have redundant requirements precisely to prevent that (he'll probably never get over dropping levels for Seimei, et all XD)

[SSS]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

thank you @moni for your insights.

tbh I am always kind of surprised that Yuzuru doesn't trips during LGC step sequence because his speed is just insane, with so many abrupt changes in speed and direction.

Yuzu, please slow down! (who am I kidding, he's always done Chopin ballade step sequence at breakneck speed, and it will only get worse...)

where where?

You made me want to find a fancam of LGC asap

[xeyra]

49 minutes ago, SSS said:

You made me want to find a fancam of LGC asap

 

Here's one, from GPF:

 

 

[SSS]

4 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

Here's one, from GPF:

 

 

Thanks. Yes, Insane. I love the guy 

[SSS]

18 hours ago, seaweed said:

 Wtf.. i don't understand at all...

 

14 hours ago, LadyLou said:

 

I am shook

I think I remember the thing with his problems with lv4 in 2015-2016 at first was because the rules had changed from the previous season, and about GPF I thought he maybe was more focused on the performance rather than on control...and there was the tech specialist who is notorious for his strictness on stsq I think (if anyone knows better please correct me) but I didn't know he got lv3 for SP in Boston too (I don't know if laugh or cry for lv4 in the FS,oh zuzu )

I didn't believe my data, so I went to check again, it was true that Yuzu was the only one to get level 3 in 4CC SP ><

We should have a thread studying Yuzu's step sequence. What was the rule change?

[EisElle]

I didn't remember very well,so I tracked back the updated guidelines for 2017-2018

about stsq it says

Quote

1) Minimum variety (Level 1), simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of difficult turns and steps throughout

(compulsory)

2) Rotations in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction

3) Use of body movements for at least 1/3 of the pattern

4) Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns on different feet executed with a clear rhythm within the sequence. Only the first combination attempted on each foot can be counted

The underlined part was added. I don't know what effect it can have in general, but I guess redundancy is no more useful because if you don't get the level with the first combination it's useless to have another one? As the second wouldn't be counted anyway? Someone more knowlegdeable maybe can explain better (I don't know a thing, just learning and nerding on the isu handbook)

There is this one about the required lenght of the pattern too

Quote

Step sequence pattern: It must be visible and identifiable and should be performed by using almost the full

ice surface (e.g. straight line, serpentine, circle, oval or similar shape) either in it’s length from short barrier

to short barrier or twice in its width from long barrier to long barrier.

 

 

EDIT wait, sorry @SSS  I misread what rule change you were talking about (I'm kinda still asleep)

You can find the whole thing about Seimei stsq and rule change in 2015-2016 discussed at lenght here

https://fuckyeahdearlybeloved.tumblr.com/post/158554601816/i-dont-really-get-the-levels-and-stsq-ive-also

[Valkyria]

18 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

Here's one, from GPF:

 

 

 

 maybe, but I LOVE the guy who does this cams. Truly, one of us; I'd love to watch a competition with him XDDD

[xeyra]

 

Nice visual example guide on spins. 

[moni]

11 hours ago, LadyLou said:

The underlined part was added. I don't know what effect it can have in general, but I guess redundancy is no more useful because if you don't get the level with the first combination it's useless to have another one? As the second wouldn't be counted anyway? Someone more knowlegdeable maybe can explain better (I don't know a thing, just learning and nerding on the isu handbook)

 

Exactly. 

For example last 2 seasons (in both SP and FS), Yuzuru was doing one combination on his right foot and two on his left foot. So if he made a mistake in his first combination on his left foot but did his second combo cleanly, it would be counted. Next season it won't be. But to be fair, I don't remember seeing him making a mistake in his combo on his left foot. If there were some mistakes, it was either in the combo on his right foot (H&L NHK...) or in some solo turns(loops, choctaws..).

[moni]

On 27. 7. 2017 at 5:39 PM, moni said:

I think the reason Yuzu got Lv3 in Boston and 4CC is that he made a small mistake during some of his turns. Probably wrong/unclear edge or putting free foot down too soon or similar thing. Because of this, one/some of his turn/turns was/were not counted. Right now I can't tell the exact moment but maybe later when I have time I will watch it in slowmotion and check every turn carefully. It is something you can't notice in real time unless you are really an expert.

So, I rewatched his Chopin SP from Boston (probably more than million times, LOL) and here are some possible mistakes I found in his StSq. But it depends on how strict the judge is (Yuzu had few shallow edges, or at least it looked like it to me from that camera angle).

 

He had some unclear edges on some of his choctaws but I don't think this caused Lv3 because he did at least one clean choctaw in both directions. But his first loop (his exit RBI edge was probably not deep enough) or/and his second rocker(again, probably rather flat RFI edge) could be invalid and thus he could not fulfill the requirements to have 11 different turns and 5 different types of turns(if loop was invalid) or one difficult combination on each foot (if rocker was invalid). All the other turns seem clean too me. 

 
Here is my analysis (it starts right after his second spin), on the first sheet I wrote down all of his steps+edges (blue color means difficult turn) + possible mistakes (red colour) at Worlds, Nationals, GPF and NKH. On the second sheet there is a summary of which requirement of Lv4 he (probaly) didn't fulfill. It's a little bit different than this analysis from NHK 2015 made by another fan. Although most of the relevant steps match, I found one more rocker and choctaw and one less counter. I'm far from an expert but this is what I'm seeing in those videos. If someone here knows about steps, please tell me whether I'm right or wrong!

 

Tomorrow I will try to do the same with LGC at 4CC.

[kaeryth]

So... my unofficial conclusion is that he skates too fast. Which kinda makes sense since at 4CC he was a bit frantic during the StSq to catch up with the music after he popped to COD . H&L seemed to have always gotten Level 4 - has a slower melody and so he takes his time.

[AsteroidB-612]

2 hours ago, moni said:

So, I rewatched his Chopin SP from Boston (probably more than million times, LOL) and here are some possible mistakes I found in his StSq. But it depends on how strict the judge is (Yuzu had few shallow edges, or at least it looked like it to me from that camera angle).

 

He had some unclear edges on some of his choctaws but I don't think this caused Lv3 because he did at least one clean choctaw in both directions. But his first loop (his exit RBI edge was probably not deep enough) or/and his second rocker(again, probably rather flat RFI edge) could be invalid and thus he could not fulfill the requirements to have 11 different turns and 5 different types of turns(if loop was invalid) or one difficult combination on each foot (if rocker was invalid). All the other turns seem clean too me. 

 
Here is my analysis (it starts right after his second spin), on the first sheet I wrote down all of his steps+edges (blue color means difficult turn) + possible mistakes (red colour) at Worlds, Nationals, GPF and NKH. On the second sheet there is a summary of which requirement of Lv4 he (probaly) didn't fulfill. It's a little bit different than this analysis from NHK 2015 made by another fan. Although most of the relevant steps match, I found one more rocker and choctaw and one less counter. I'm far from an expert but this is what I'm seeing in those videos. If someone here knows about steps, please tell me whether I'm right or wrong!

 

Tomorrow I will try to do the same with LGC at 4CC.

Thank you so so so much for taking the time out and analyze to this extend! This totally answered everyone's questions regarding his Chopin StSq !! (It seems that his problem is with the edges and  sort of confirms what people here speculate about him been light and fast and sometimes when he rush things can lead to mistakes with edges not been deep enough...) can't wait to see what you find in 4cc LGC!