General Skating Chat

[SparkleSalad]

26 minutes ago, yuzuuu said:

my I know where did Vincent said he liked yuzu's program? sorry I'm so not up to date haha

 

 

[xeyra]

I think what invites more comparisons from Yuzu's fans is that the cut of Vincent's RJ, outside of the first 30s or so, is basically the same, up to including Escape at the end, which is not a theme from the Romeo and Juliet soundtrack. The RJ cuts in Han Yan's or Marin Honda's programs last season didn't invite the same comparisons because they were different music cuts, even if they all included Kissing You. 

 

More than that, the structure of Vincent's FS is also very similar, with some elements like spins, choreo/step sequences and jumps placed in very similar moments in the music. This invites the comparison even further. I noticed his spread eagle sequence (which is lovely, actually) was placed exactly where Yuzu did his long Ina Bauer, but that music highlight does invite these kind of wow elements. 

 

I'm sure a lot of non-Yuzu fans will not really care, though, and some who saw the 2012 Romeo may not remember it enough to compare to this 2017 Romeo. Also others will probably go out of their way to say that it's totally different, which is not really true; come on, Vincent IS a fanboy and it shows.

 

Also, poor kid was super nervous and running out of steam for his ambitious 5-quad program. Don't hold his poor interpretation against him too much yet; this was his first outing with the FS, after all.

 

As for scoring, do remember this was an USA competition, with USA judges, some of which are probably not ISU sanctioned, so let's not spend that much time discussing and dissecting it now and wait for his international senior debut to think about his PCS or GOEs. US Nationals with US judges also gave Nathan 91 PCS for his FS, which just goes to show you need to wait for international judging for a more accurate assessment of a skater (or a more accurate assessment of politics, whatever one prefers).

 

I do know as a Yuzu fan that I'll appreciate Vincent's SP more than his FS because it'll be hard, due to the very similar music cut and element placement and even some choreographic touches here and there, to not think about Yuzu's RJ1. If Vincent and his team had gone with a different cut of the music, it would have been different because I have had no issues appreciating other RJ versions (it's not like Yuzu owns RJ... it's a warhorse for a reason), but using Escape at the end is a little 

[kaeryth]

2 minutes ago, xeyra said:

I do know as a Yuzu fan that I'll appreciate Vincent's SP more than his FS because it'll be hard, due to the very similar music cut and element placement and even some choreographic touches here and there, to not think about Yuzu's RJ1. If Vincent and his team had gone with a different cut of the music, it would have been different because I have had no issues appreciating other RJ versions (it's not like Yuzu owns RJ... it's a warhorse for a reason), but using Escape at the end is a little 

 

I agree. Nobody's saying Yuzu owns Romeo and Juliet but it's the music cuts and choreography that makes it up for comparison. Some of the timing of the jumps to the music (that third jumping pass) and especially the final choreo sequence down to the final jumping pass and spins. I just feel there's not a lot of originality in this program.

[xeyra]

20 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

I agree. Nobody's saying Yuzu owns Romeo and Juliet but it's the music cuts and choreography that makes it up for comparison. Some of the timing of the jumps to the music (that third jumping pass) and especially the final choreo sequence down to the final jumping pass and spins. I just feel there's not a lot of originality in this program.

 

Truth is, there are moments in a music theme that do invite certain elements, either step sequences or jumps or spins, and since Vincent's cut is so, so similar to Yuzu's, inevitably the elements would have to be placed at exactly the same moments. And his team didn't attempt to escape this.

 

As a counter example, this is why I was so pleasantly surprised when Shoma placed a spin where I've read people expected a step sequence in his Winter SP, because he bucked the 'trend' of what the music was calling for (and it works! so kudos to Higuchi and her choreography). 

 

On the other hand, I am still not entirely sold on the first spin timing in Yuzu's Chopin 3.0, but we'll have to wait and see if he takes as long to set up the 4Lo in a proper rink as he had to in FaOI, which might change the build in to the spin better.

[kaeryth]

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

Truth is, there are moments in a music theme that do invite certain elements, either step sequences or jumps or spins, and since Vincent's cut is so, so similar to Yuzu's, inevitably the elements would have to be placed at exactly the same moments. And his team didn't attempt to escape this.

 

As a counter example, this is why I was so pleasantly surprised when Shoma placed a spin where I've read people expected a step sequence in his Winter SP, because he bucked the 'trend' of what the music was calling for (and it works! so kudos to Higuchi and her choreography). 

 

Hmmmm... I guess that's actually one of the most disappointing thing. The fact that they used similar music cuts, you'd that his team would be a bit more cautious with the choreography especially since Vincent himself has seen Yuzu's program enough to say it's one of his favourites.

[Valkyria]

I watched Vincent's FS yesterday and had pretty much the same reaction as you guys. The music cut is so similar to Yuzuru's (as @xeyra said, I was waiting to see if Escape came on to make clear it was more than mere coincidence :_D) that it's just begging for the comparison, and so far it's not looking good for Vincent. Yes, it's still very early in the season and everyone's programs are going to be pretty rough at this stage, but it's more than that. I don't really care about the scoring it got (which was always going to be questionable, considering the circumstances) but about the soul of the performance. Even if it's only us Yuzuru and/or longer term skating fans that have Yuzu's W2012 skate burnt into our brains, the talk is already there and it seems to me like putting unnecessary pressure to try to live up to that on top of everything else.

 

In short: I'm still wondering if it was a very brave decision or a very stupid one 

[xeyra]

6 minutes ago, Valkyria said:

In short: I'm still wondering if it was a very brave decision or a very stupid one 

 

The honest truth? I personally don't think anyone who will be judging or officially commentating on it will care. Some judges who might have seen RJ1 and happen to judge Vincent's FS at some competition might be reminded and make comparisons in their mind, but it won't really make much of a difference. He'll be scored according to what he brings on the table, and whether he'll improve on what he has at this point in time (remember he is already attempting 5 quads in July! This is absolutely crazy, to be honest, even if he URs quite a bit) we will have to see, like with everyone whose early season programs are rather rough.

[kaeryth]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

The honest truth? I personally don't think anyone who will be judging or officially commentating on it will care. Some judges who might have seen RJ1 and happen to judge Vincent's FS at some competition might be reminded and make comparisons in their mind, but it won't really make much of a difference. He'll be scored according to what he brings on the table, and whether he'll improve on what he has at this point in time (remember he is already attempting 5 quads in July! This is absolutely crazy, to be honest, even if he URs quite a bit) we will have to see, like with everyone whose early season programs are rather rough.

 

I know of 2 commentators who would be judging this against Yuzu's performance (they did it with Han Yan's R+J last season as well).

[xeyra]

43 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

I know of 2 commentators who would be judging this against Yuzu's performance (they did it with Han Yan's R+J last season as well).

 

Well, aside from the ITA Eurosport boys... 

 

@kaeryth, what did they say about Han Yan's R+J last season, though? 

[fluffypooh]

I just saw vincent 's FS, the landing of all his jumps are so scary, I don't think he has the techniques down yet.  and it takes longer preparation so the program is emptier.  yea I guess I am comparing subconsciously to Yuzu's, imo you need to have good skills before you can connect to the program, vincent is just not there yet, still very junior.   

[Yolo3a]

Honestly I thought his programme was empty a lot of times and he sets up for the jumps for long time, like Nathan. 

I think the last stsq music is so familiar that it would invite comparison. May be because I have seen that video 200 times. But I really feel like Vincent's approach is more like an admirer rather than a competitor to yuzuru. 

[Xen]

How did you guys get me to watch his FS? My lost time....R&J music doesn't really suit him, something about it just doesn't seem right. If he had to go the Rota route, maybe even La Strada would work better. If he had to go classical, Gerswin might work better, plus some of the more recent, modern classical music.

 

I don't buy much into the score, because judges will score comparatively, and Vincent hasn't gone against the big boys. He won't get those scores if he goes against a decently clean Nathan, Shoma and possibly Boyang. 

Artistically he's not Hanyu, or Jason, or Patrick, so naturally he won't pick the artistry route. But in pure techniques, he's not Nathan either-which begs the question, why his team chose the technical route to the top. I mean, so long as Nathan breathes, Vincent isn't going to overtake a decently on target Nathan. Nevermind that Vincent has serious UR issues. Nationally it might work, since he could fill the gap between the pure technician Nate, and the pure artist Jason. But internationally, I don't know. There's Shoma, and there's Boyang to worry about-seriously would you give Boyang's quads and Vincent's quads the same GOE? (well honestly you shouldn't, but then again sometimes the judges...)

[kaeryth]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

Well, aside from the ITA Eurosport boys... 

 

@kaeryth, what did they say about Han Yan's R+J last season, though? 

 

I don't remember the translation but the video is here. If I remember correctly (don't quote me on this) something about the music reminding them about a particular memorable skate by Hanyu.

[CiaoCiao]

I just realized that in my opinion not just the music belongs to Yuzu, but also the character of Romeo belongs to him. It's strange: in my opinion Romeo had the features of Leonard Whiting in the film, and now he is more like... a cute japanese boy 

 

About Vincent's program, I will wait to see it in competition before saying anything, even with Yuzu's version in the mind.

[SparkleSalad]

41 minutes ago, CiaoCiao said:

I just realized that in my opinion not just the music belongs to Yuzu, but also the character of Romeo belongs to him. It's strange: in my opinion Romeo had the features of Leonard Whiting in the film, and now he is more like... a cute japanese boy 

 

About Vincent's program, I will wait to see it in competition before saying anything, even with Yuzu's version in the mind.

 

The first time I saw it I felt like I had finally seen the true Romeo. Shakespeare didn't realise he was a Japanese boy when he wrote it, that's all. Though really I think Shakespeare's Romeo is an impulsive, violent little jerk who would have dumped Juliet the next week if they hadn't buggered up and killed themselves, Hanyu is that perfect romantic Romeo I had in my head growing up before I realised how awful teenage boys are.