General Skating Chat

[meoima]

13 minutes ago, wingman said:

 

 

I totally agree with @xeyra. I can see @meoima's point, but really, is it necessary to justify the "why" of love? Whatever the reason that turned you into his fan, be it the emotions, the personality, the techniques,... that's what matter most.

 

If one feels like they want to learn more on the technical aspects, they should learn how GOEs are awarded, because those criterion represent what the entire field of figure skating consider important for a jump. The minute details of "how skater A does it" do not matter at all, as everyone's body is different. What matter is how many GOE boxes they check, and on this aspect, Yuzu's records are undeniable facts.

It is not about "why" of the love. It is about the technique. Even a non-fan of Yuna Kim should not say her lutz is wrong. Because her Lutz is one of the best. Also, as Laylou has stated, people here talk in English but many are not native-English speakers and many come from other platforms. 

[wingman]

Well yeah, but people can say whatever they want. Why care? (Especially in this age of fake news).

If someone said that Yuna's Lutz is wrong, I'd like to see them do a correct one in front of a judging panel.

[meoima]

1 minute ago, wingman said:

Well yeah, but people can say whatever they want. Why care? (Especially in this age of fake news).

If someone said that Yuna's Lutz is wrong, I'd like to see them do a correct one in front of a judging panel.

Yes, people say whatever they want as well and it's their personal accounts, right? Then why get so emotional over some personal tweets saying Yuzuru's 4S is one of the 2 ways that are correct? it's like: "No you must not say A to reply B just because of some bad comments." Most people not using twitter would just think ok it's a clear up of the technique debate. 

[Xen]

Bringing us back onto the topic of FS, instead of the psychology of fans (which I don't get at times), I want to bring up the axel jump. In light of what was mentioned.

56 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

I thought the change of goe range and cut of men fs to 4.00 minutes was already confirmed, but we'll actually have to wait till June(?) for the official decision (and formulation), is that correct? But the new goe range was used in the test event iirc , plus that jpn judge addressed those changes in that talk show when talking about Yuzu's 4S, so I guess those changes will be confirmed.

I'm actually more worried about the idea of changing the bv of jumps...without prior testing of how well new goe can actually work. 

Also, I was thinking if it's possible that they'll make incremental of positive goe by 0.5 ( eg: if there are 10 bullets in total, hitting one gives 0.5, hitting 5 results in 2,5...). Imo it would be quite useful, right now there is no chance to distinguish a 3 bullets jump from a 4 bullets one (of course, only if judges strictly assess the bullets for goe). I'd like the "it is recommended to score so and so when the jump satisfies x bullets" (non  verbatim) will go away and become "if it hits a bullet,  just score it like this". There is going to be already so much subjectivity, I'd like to know if judges are just having (big) troubles assessing bullets correctly or they just flat out disregard the guidelines... but I'm not holding my breath for that

 

I was playing around with fisk8 app and found a potential 7 jump layout. If this is valid, technically, you can do without a 3A provided you have a stamina, in a 7 jumps setup.  While I don't think it's realistic since most skaters don't have a5 types of quad jumps, given BV differences, guys might seriously aim for it (so many have issues with 3A). If the judges and ISU want and demand variety, and still think the 3A is a valid, difficult, separation of the men from the boys  type of jump, then they do need to amend the rules a bit. Either that an axel must be performed in the long, or only 1 quad type jump can be repeated in combo etc. Or if they decide to do a BV cut, do not touch the 3A. 

 

Putting under spoiler so no heart attacks unless you want it.

Spoiler

Layout:  I only placed 3 jumps in second half bonus section, because 4 would be insane, too insane

4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 4S// 4T1Lo3S  4S2T 4T

Spins: FCCoSp4 CCSp4 CCoSp4

Steps: StSq4, ChSq

BV: 109.83

 

I think honestly, if we want judges to justify their GOEs or even monitor and teach GOEs, is to list out all the bullets and have judges press the bullet points they think apply. Let the computer do the calculations. And then we have more knowledge of where judges may be differing and they would need to  justify why.  I am also thinking of those standout -3's and +3's etc during the Olys, and wondering if there is a way to flag them so the judges can get a second look at their scores? A -3 really stands out when the skater doesn't have a fall or any other clear reason for a -3 (steps for example in SP). 

 

@LadyLou: I was rewatching Tarakanova again, and think she might have the best axel in Eteri's group. She had pretty good lift on a 2A that had nearly no speed into it at JGPF.  Unless my perception is really off?  We're possibly looking at the one Eteri Girl who could try a 3A since they're all on that quad/3A craze?

[xeyra]

11 minutes ago, Xen said:

Bringing us back onto the topic of FS, instead of the psychology of fans (which I don't get at times), I want to bring up the axel jump. In light of what was mentioned.

 

I was playing around with fisk8 app and found a potential 7 jump layout. If this is valid, technically, you can do without a 3A provided you have a stamina, in a 7 jumps setup.  While I don't think it's realistic since most skaters don't have a5 types of quad jumps, given BV differences, guys might seriously aim for it (so many have issues with 3A). If the judges and ISU want and demand variety, and still think the 3A is a valid, difficult, separation of the men from the boys  type of jump, then they do need to amend the rules a bit. Either that an axel must be performed in the long, or only 1 quad type jump can be repeated in combo etc. Or if they decide to do a BV cut, do not touch the 3A. 

 

Putting under spoiler so no heart attacks unless you want it.

  Hide contents

Layout:  I only placed 3 jumps in second half bonus section, because 4 would be insane, too insane

4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 4S// 4T1Lo3S  4S2T 4T

Spins: FCCoSp4 CCSp4 CCoSp4

Steps: StSq4, ChSq

BV: 109.83

 

 

 

An axel is a required FS element, though, so any layout has to include at least a single, 7 jumps or not. I don't think they'll change that rule at all. Or how many jumps you can repeat.

[Xen]

Just now, xeyra said:

 

An axel is a required FS element, though, so any layout has to include at least a single, 7 jumps or not. I don't think they'll change that rule at all. Or how many jumps you can repeat.

Ah, I forgot about that. >_<

Okay, updated:

Spoiler

4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 4Lz// 4T1Lo3S  4S2T 3A

Spins: FCCoSp4 CCSp4 CCoSp4

Steps: StSq4, ChSq

BV: 110.95

 

[xeyra]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

Ah, I forgot about that. >_<

Okay, updated:

  Hide contents

4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 4Lz// 4T1Lo3S  4S2T 3A

Spins: FCCoSp4 CCSp4 CCoSp4

Steps: StSq4, ChSq

BV: 110.95

 

 

Basically, Nathan would still win any BV game since he has access to all of those. 

[xeyra]

BTW they'll test the new system in a summer competition. I forget which one but it's in the USA.

[meoima]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Bringing us back onto the topic of FS, instead of the psychology of fans (which I don't get at times), I want to bring up the axel jump. In light of what was mentioned.

 

I was playing around with fisk8 app and found a potential 7 jump layout. If this is valid, technically, you can do without a 3A provided you have a stamina, in a 7 jumps setup.  While I don't think it's realistic since most skaters don't have a5 types of quad jumps, given BV differences, guys might seriously aim for it (so many have issues with 3A). If the judges and ISU want and demand variety, and still think the 3A is a valid, difficult, separation of the men from the boys  type of jump, then they do need to amend the rules a bit. Either that an axel must be performed in the long, or only 1 quad type jump can be repeated in combo etc. Or if they decide to do a BV cut, do not touch the 3A. 

 

Putting under spoiler so no heart attacks unless you want it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Layout:  I only placed 3 jumps in second half bonus section, because 4 would be insane, too insane

4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 4S// 4T1Lo3S  4S2T 4T

Spins: FCCoSp4 CCSp4 CCoSp4

Steps: StSq4, ChSq

BV: 109.83

 

I think honestly, if we want judges to justify their GOEs or even monitor and teach GOEs, is to list out all the bullets and have judges press the bullet points they think apply. Let the computer do the calculations. And then we have more knowledge of where judges may be differing and they would need to  justify why.  I am also thinking of those standout -3's and +3's etc during the Olys, and wondering if there is a way to flag them so the judges can get a second look at their scores? A -3 really stands out when the skater doesn't have a fall or any other clear reason for a -3 (steps for example in SP). 

 

@LadyLou: I was rewatching Tarakanova again, and think she might have the best axel in Eteri's group. She had pretty good lift on a 2A that had nearly no speed into it at JGPF.  Unless my perception is really off?  We're possibly looking at the one Eteri Girl who could try a 3A since they're all on that quad/3A craze?

If there are debates over cutting 30 seconds in men LP, they might not cut it right away. The men do quads and need more preparation. They might still get 4m30 second.

 

Takaranova is very raw and sloppy. Her jumps are big. But Alena Kostornaia's Axel seems better.

[Xen]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

BTW they'll test the new system in a summer competition. I forget which one but it's in the USA.

Well I've tested this around with a  hypo layout. It's a bit...scary. Full explanation of what was done:

- 7 jumping passes in 4 minutes, 4 in second half

- Assuming that GOE is tied to percent of BV, in which case each +1 GOE=10% of BV

- no reduction in spin or stsq requirements

Jumps	BV	GOE (perfect)	Final
4Lo	12	6	18
4T	10.3	5.15	15.45
3F	5.3	1.86	7.16
4S3T (x)	16.28	8.14	24.42
4T1Lo3S (x)	16.72	8.36	25.08
3A2T (x)	10.78	5.39	16.17
3A (x)	9.35	4.68	14.03
FCCoSP4	3.5	0.88	4.38
CCSp4	3.2	0.8	4
CCoSp4	3.5	0.88	4.38
StSq4	3.9	1.37	5.27
ChSq1	2.0	0.7	2.7
Subtotal	96.83	44.19	141.02

 

Which is a bit ridiculously high. And if you check, due to the factorization, spins and steps take on even less significance, and normal triple jumps such as 3F have a final value that is less than under the old system (old system of straight up GOE is 7.4). If I increase with each GOE as 5% of the BV, the difference still exists, only even more drastic between jumps, spins and steps, but the final subtotal is a bit better (118.92).  If I did a straight +5 GOE with no percent tie to BV, the total perfect TES goes even more ridiculous at 151.4, but the percent weight of each type of element won't change (still 80% due to jumps, 20% due to other elements).

 

 

So I also fiddled around, and I think the closest I've gotten to something keeping the balance was one, where triples up to 3A do not receive any BV reduction, all quads receive a 10% reduction, and GOEs for spins and Step Sequences are straight+GOEs with no ties to BV.

In this scenario,  I got a total perfect TES of 144.12 with the above layout. However, spins and steqs were about 21% of total TES worth, and jumps accounted for 79% of total TES. In this case though, the 3A in second half is extremely significant, as a 3A2T in second half with perfect +5 GOE (tied to base of BV) ended at 16.17 points, and a 3A second half solo jump with perfect GOE was 14.03-worth more than a solo 4T in first half.  This is the closest I've gotten to using base BV % for GOE without having jumps weighing too much. If I tie the %BV for GOE and factor it as just 5% per GOE, then the subtotal is125.47 and jumps only account for 76% of the TES. Still, in both scenarios, 4T gets kind of shafted, and 3A rises in significance. All other triple jumps suffer due to the 0.7 factorization on top.

 

So...congrats ISU, I'm not sure how your rules will work to decrease the emphasis on quads. But regardless, in all scenarios, the quad powers win. Though the third alt I have does give 3A guys and spins/jumps guys a chance?

 

 

 

 

 

[cinemacoconut]

14 minutes ago, meoima said:

If there are debates over cutting 30 seconds in men LP, they might not cut it right away. The men do quads and need more preparation. They might still get 4m30 second.

 

Takaranova is very raw and sloppy. Her jumps are big. But Alena Kostornaia's Axel seems better.

 

I agree that the men need more time to prep for quads.

 

 

 

Also about the antis there r heaps of crazy hanyu fans. Ive seen them. They fight each other about the right way to fan yuzu. People are always gona fight. No fandom has 100% peace and I begun to accept that as fact. 

[WinForPooh]

I'd agree with offering input about technique and so on to neutrals, or people who are just getting into figure skating. Because otherwise, the ones who shout the loudest are the antis and as long as their nonsense is not countered with information, the nonsense will stick in a casual's mind as fact. That's how fake news works. But I'd also say never @ the antis for anything, that's giving them attention and legitimacy, too. 

[kaeryth]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

I was rewatching Tarakanova again, and think she might have the best axel in Eteri's group. She had pretty good lift on a 2A that had nearly no speed into it at JGPF.  Unless my perception is really off?  We're possibly looking at the one Eteri Girl who could try a 3A since they're all on that quad/3A craze?

 

That's because she was originally trained by Puchkova then Panova. Yes, she can be a bit sloppy but her technique is solid. No edge issues as well. Also, I love how high her free leg goes up when she lands her jumps (Ted described it as almost spiral-esque). 

[source]

[xeyra]

@Xen how did you do the math on the spins and sequences? Because perfect GOE on a 3.5 BV spin would be 1.75, if at 10% per GOE increment?

[Xen]

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

@Xen how did you do the math on the spins and sequences? Because perfect GOE on a 3.5 BV spin would be 1.75, if at 10% per GOE increment?

Hi Xeyra, aren't spins GOE values factorized by 0.5, unless I'm missing something? And steps are factorized at 0.7 of the GOEs?