General Skating Chat

[Xen]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

gosh, those half-covered boots, how I hate them too

And I love Alena K. too, whenever I read people criticizing backloaded program I always feel annoyed on her behalf because she is actually a skater who can make a backloaded program look very beautiful and complete and balanced...and her InaBauer is so awesome)

back to the serious stuff, you know who doesn't telegraph some of his jumps? The italian junior Daniel Grassrl.

He is a few months younger than Jun Hwan and he has landed 4Lz (tho I can't say anything about his technique, I haven't paid attention...), he is very unpolished and he has tons to improve in ss, but I rememeber he made me enjoy his performance and he has some nice spins and he looks like Stephen Gogolev's older brother

Also, apparently he is coached by Lorenzo Magri, who I think might be the very man who predicted our young Romeo would make ISU change rules...

Checked his height on ISU bio and he's still growing, definitely still growing. His legs proportions do not look his listed height, at least another 10-15 cms over the years incoming. But he does remind me more of a younger Javi. You know, I would really root for him to join BOrser camp. And I think he does have pretty decent musicality, pretty expressive Chaplin from 2016 JGPF, some of his presentation issues is more due to going through that awkward growing pains/flailing limbs period.

 

Other junior men I'm looking at (other than Shun, Gogolev) is Andrew Torgashev (US), Artur Danielian (RUS- he has gorgeous landings, and not much in the flailing limbs department for a 13 year old boy).

[WinForPooh]

Could somebody maybe give me a link to a skate by the Italian junior mentioned? My Googling skills have apparently been underrotated and downgraded.

 

I'm iffy about what Eteri said because of the (perhaps unfounded, I don't know) reputation she has for not being able to carry skaters through puberty unless they stay very thin. So the giving up food vibes could maybe have been avoided from her.

 

I'm completely mehhh on any ISU points changes because it'll be the same old judges and the same old review system for judges. What happened to the Chinese judge who was under review, btw? The US one of course was never even under review.  

[kaeryth]

13 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

Could somebody maybe give me a link to a skate by the Italian junior mentioned? My Googling skills have apparently been underrotated and downgraded.

 

 

Daniel Grassl - Golden Spin Zagreb 2017 where he did a 4Lz as the 1st jump in his FS

Protocol here: http://sharp-jackson-2e11d8.bitballoon.com/Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Spoiler

 

 

[WinForPooh]

7 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

Daniel Grassl - Golden Spin Zagreb 2017 where he did a 4Lz as the 1st jump in his FS

Protocol here: http://sharp-jackson-2e11d8.bitballoon.com/Men_FS_Scores.pdf

  Hide contents

 

 

 You need to be conferred an award, too. The Rememberer of Videos.

[meoima]

Anyone remember how much Yuzuru has sacrificed for both his Olympic Golds? How many hardships, adversities, injuries he has gone through? I am not a big fan of Eteri but she does not say anything wrong about Alina and Zhenia if they want to go to Olympic 2022, they will have to give up a lot... like A LOT just to get there. And we are not even sure they will get there as there are so many good junior girls coming up.

[kaeryth]

5 hours ago, LadyLou said:

And it's going to be even worse., because Junior ladies' field is crazy talented. Just considering the upcoming Jr Worlds, you have at least 3 or 4 more girls who would have deserved to go and would even have battled for podium, but weren't even selected (3 out of the 5 in the gpf aren't going, and I'll miss wild child Tarakanova the most).

 

Sharing the Nastya T. love I love how emotional and unpolished she is... (I know some people don't like to compare skaters to Yuzu but this type of character is what attracted me to a young Yuzu in the first place). Of course, liking an emotional skater means I'm also bound to be in for an emotional ride as well. And her being a part of such a deep field... /sigh/

[cinemacoconut]

I too am looking foward to the Future of Alena K. And Trusova the most. I know its early but from the looks of it the Beijing podium 2022

 

Looks like

 

1. Alina Kostornaia

2. Trusova

3. Rika Kihira or other russian lady

 

 

Eteri has built monster prototypes that jump 4 salchow and 4 toe, 3 lutz-3loop jumps.

The BV is so high and whats more is that Eteri girls are SO consistent, so mentally tough in competitions. 

I dnt think other countries stand a chance to Russian ladies atm not even Team Japan. I once thought Marin was the next queen but I think she will lose out to Zagitova's reign even though Marin is a year older.

Rika Kihiras 3a is consistent but her height is average which would give her a disadvantage like Satoko. 

Japanese ladies need to challenge Russian ladies with more difficult jumps or else they wont win 2022 beijing gold. 

 

So imo 2022 Beijing Podium gold will most likely go to a Russian lady, they are so good.

 

In 2022 if yuzu decides to continue maybe we will see 3 consecutive OGM from yuzu but if he retires then I cnt predict. 

 

 

[yuzuangel]

Just now, cinemacoconut said:

I once thought Marin was the next queen but I think she will lose out to Zagitova's reign even though Marin is a year older.

Marin seems inconsistent with motivation/training issues. I honestly don't think she will ever make the National team unless she truly steps it up and makes huge changes  esp with Wakaba, Kaori, Satoko, Rika Kihira, and Mai all contending for at most 3 spots.

[cinemacoconut]

Just now, yuzuangel said:

Marin seems inconsistent with motivation/training issues. I honestly don't think she will ever make the National team unless she truly steps it up and makes huge changes  esp with Wakaba, Kaori, Satoko, Rika Kihira, and Mai all contending for at most 3 spots.

 

 

But one thing that seperates Marin from other Japanese girls is that she has star power.

Like yuzu she is not only gifted in looks but also in artistry. She draws the audience towards her. Which is highly prized in figure skating and very rare. 

But Marin in also mentally weak and not very consistent.. I consider her a jewel that hasnt been polished and it is a waste of talent.. Team Japan had a future queen but didnt do well to polish it. 

[cinemacoconut]

5 hours ago, LadyLou said:

Re: Shoma and Javi scoring

Shoma's 4Lo: what's really puzzling is that the jump was put under review (the square was yellow, not red despite the -4 goe so panel had it marked for review) and yet the panel decided it wasn't even UR. For how bad camera angle and quality of the recording might be, that UR was still mightly hard to miss that's one of those instances when to give the benefit of the doubt and to blame the poor equipment is reaaaaaaaaally hard

imo some of Javi's goe could be a bit too generous, too, but overall I think there are no doubts that, with correct tech calls, he would have gotten silver, so I admire that he really doesn't hold a grudge. tbh the reaction of many commentators when Shoma's score came up and they learned he was silver makes me think they were expecting Shoma to be bronze. I was so freakin' happy for Yuzu that I missed the standings recap twice and I had to check the isu page to see who had gotten silver and I was a bit surprised.

Scoring talk aside, I'm happy Javi could have the best FS of the season when it mattered the most

Also,  for some reason this was the Turandot I appreciated the most from Shoma tho I don't know how much it weighted that after his first mistake I stopped biting my nails for Yuzuru and I could relax and everything became unicorns and rainbows for me

 

sorry that I'm quoting you in this thread, I just wanted to keep discussing this.

 

IMO there are no doubts Brian and Eteri have very different approaches when it comes to training, but Eteri isn't wrong and she isn't being "harsh" when she says that if Zhenya and Alina want to aim for Beijing they need to sacrifice everything. She's merely stating the truth, which is terryfing but is the truth, in the context of what a Russian lady needs if she wants to even be picked for the Olympic team.

I've come to appreciate Zhenya and I'd like to see Alina develop her real potential (no more ballet, thanks) so I'd be happy if they could both be still there by 2022, but tbh I think it's quite likely that at least one of them won't even make it to the olympic team, let alone aim for gold. Quite a few of the wunderkinds we saw in J GPF won't, either. There are just too many good skaters. That's the actual state of Russian ladies skating, the field is so scarily deep even an excellent skater can be swallowed by it and never be sent to any major international comp.

And it's going to be even worse., because Junior ladies' field is crazy talented. Just considering the upcoming Jr Worlds, you have at least 3 or 4 more girls who would have deserved to go and would even have battled for podium, but weren't even selected (3 out of the 5 in the gpf aren't going, and I'll miss wild child Tarakanova the most). And Anna Shcherbakova wasn't even in the mix because of her injury and now she's back she's defeated little monster Sasha Trusova, just to say what is the level we have now, among juniors who will be senior by 2022.

It's likely in the few years at least a few of those ladies will jump a quad or a 3A and all of them are consistent, too. Alina will soon lose her TES advantage among senior, Zhenya already has. It's not that the coach is pushing for them to kill themselves. The depth of the field demands that. If you really want the OGM there is no other way than killing yourself because the field is that crazy.

It is a sad but it's not Eteri's approach that it's wrong, hers is actually the only one possible in that specific context (you need to be hungry, you need to be tough, because if you falter there's plenty people waiting to take your place) and imo that's why her skaters are doing so well in both senior and junior. Those who can't keep up are left behind. It's cruel, but it's not Eteri's fault, it's the whole system and the fact that there are too many skaters and not enough spots. True, for some skaters Eteri's tough approach wouldn't work, but still, only the skaters who will devote themselves wholly will have a chance.

Are all those young ladies really aware of what going for their dream really means? I hope they are.

But I think that it's on the parents to explain their children that they could potentially ruin their bodies or waste years of their lives for nothing, and that maybe that gold medal isn't worth so many sacrifices. 

 

Japanese Ladies field is a bit similar, tho maybe it's a little bit less cluttered in comparison and imo that's why you can find lots of different coaching approaches thrive. Still, so many good skaters and not enoug spots. I don't expect Satoko to be still at the top by 2022. Mai, Kaori, Wakaba, Marin, they will all have to fight if they really want Bejing, because Rika K. will be there to fight with her 3As and more Jr girls will rise, all hungry for those spots at the top, and a their coaches would be fools if they said: dear, you can get it without shedding tears and blood. The coaches won't demand that, but the skaters will need to decide how much of theor lives they want to put on the line for that dream, and how much that dream means for them.
 

little side note, I hope this won't come across as Shoma hate because I don't mean it like that, read at your own risk

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I know Shoma deserved his medal and he worked hard to get it, and I know he looks fluffy but he is a fierce competitor, but tbh it puts me a bit off that for him the olympic silver was just like any other medal, because other skaters placed much more meaning on that competition and some of them didn't got any medal. Just on an emotional level, I'd be more happy if those who get the medals are also those who placed the more meaning on them. It doesn't mean Shoma hasn't erned his, I just can't help but feel that, on a personal and emotional level, it is a bit of a waste. Or maybe, more correctly, I shoul say that, watching from the outside, I myself am more happy when skaters are really, deeply, truly happy because they achieved their dream)

 

 

If used wisely, imo the change of GOE range might actually result in more longevity of skaters, ladies in particular, but in truth many of the upcoming junior ladies have not only harder jumps (so higher BV) but also better technique (Nana Araki's toe jumps, Tarakanova's big jumps, even Sasha T jumps are big enough), many of them have no flutzes or lips, they do not UR or PR that much and so on (which makes me think they have some chance to survive puberty...  the one I worry the most rn is actually Alena Kostornaia, she is so small and sometimes her jumps look a bit tight...but still, she has way way way better jumps than, for example, Satoko) and some of those girls are already able to pack the entries and exits of their jumps with transitions, so they wouldn't be that far behind in goe either, if judges score according to the rulebook. So I think a BV upgrade will still be necessary for the current senior ladies. Which is crazy, considering how much the bar was raised in the last quad, when so many ladies got total score over 210 and FS over 140.

 

 

I would watch out for Shun Sato, he's from Sendai too, he yolo-ed a 3A at the end of his program and he's very young, like Stephen Gogolev. Some people reportedly said "he'd the purest talent from Japan since Yuzuru Hanyu" (I thought it was Ambesi because it was on Neveitalia, but I can't find a direct quote tho imo it sounds quite Ambesi-like).

Of course both Shun and Stephen are really young and they have a long way to go, but right now they seem to me those closer to the potential of a great skater. Certainly I see more potential in them than in most of the guys who are going to turn senior the next couple of seasons. Then of course there are a couple of amazing russian boys (like the one who was in COR and Euro gala), but I think they'll still be too young for Beijing, so we will have to wait a bit longer.

I have a soft spot for Jun Hwan Cha and he's still younger than a few of those who were in Junior GP (like Krashnozon who falls very flat to me, despite his roaring. His programs and style look quite a bit "old school", jumps jumps jumps and everything else as an afterthought. The skaters who have better ss and musicality are worse on jumps, so I don't think next season's new crop will really shake the current men standings than much). Hopefully Jun Hwan can get back consistent quads, his jumps often do look effortless tho his 3A, while improving, is still not on par with Yuzuru's 3A at his age (and he his spins are not as pretty)

Yes, I judges guys based on how they do the Axel. Give me an Axel guy and I'll love him

 

 

 

 

 

I think after yuzu retires the spotlight on Figure Skating will be focused on the ladies. They are flooding with skaters who have star power and ridiculous talent (russian ladies mostly). 

 

Then many years later we might have another male skater who is as good and popular as yuzu. But until then... I will miss the days when males figure skating popularity reached sky heights the way it is now. 

[Xen]

@cinemacoconut:

Actually in regards to Rika Kihira, there are jump analysis done for her 3A.

http://perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/180-rikia-kihira-a-new-japanese-prodigy-skater.html

Also, the-real-xmonster has a really good post about axel takeoffs, comparing and contrasting different skaters. What is noticeable is how female skaters depend more on getting into rotation faster (faster snap into rotation) than the men, so actually it works against you to jump too high.

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/170255891199/the-takeoff-axel

 

And if you compare with the perform live blog above, large jumps depend more on distance+height than just height alone. If you check the rest of Perform Live's blog on figure skating, you'll notice several men, such as Nathan do get good height, but they don't get quite the distance of Yuzu or Boyang, hence why their jumps look smaller. Jumps isn't just about height.

 

While the Russian ladies I think are really good artistically, puberty is a huge deal for female skaters. Currently I think Rika and Nana Aoki are probably almost done, so I think what Rika has now is more likely to stay. There's also Eusoon and You Young, and You Young has been training a 3A 3T combo too. I would not call the 2022 Podium just yet-it's a question for ladies, of whose techniques survive growth/puberty first. =(

 

 

[Sombreuil]

I read a post somewhere, ages ago, which commented on the particular coincidence of ability, personality, physical type, upbringing and lifetime experiences that had to happen to produce a champion like Yuzuru Hanyu.  The writer commented that no one would wish the series of events that helped to forge his personality and drive on anyone, it's unlikely we will see anything like him again and we should value him accordingly.

[cinemacoconut]

23 minutes ago, Xen said:

@cinemacoconut:

Actually in regards to Rika Kihira, there are jump analysis done for her 3A.

http://perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/180-rikia-kihira-a-new-japanese-prodigy-skater.html

Also, the-real-xmonster has a really good post about axel takeoffs, comparing and contrasting different skaters. What is noticeable is how female skaters depend more on getting into rotation faster (faster snap into rotation) than the men, so actually it works against you to jump too high.

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/170255891199/the-takeoff-axel

 

And if you compare with the perform live blog above, large jumps depend more on distance+height than just height alone. If you check the rest of Perform Live's blog on figure skating, you'll notice several men, such as Nathan do get good height, but they don't get quite the distance of Yuzu or Boyang, hence why their jumps look smaller. Jumps isn't just about height.

 

While the Russian ladies I think are really good artistically, puberty is a huge deal for female skaters. Currently I think Rika and Nana Aoki are probably almost done, so I think what Rika has now is more likely to stay. There's also Eusoon and You Young, and You Young has been training a 3A 3T combo too. I would not call the 2022 Podium just yet-it's a question for ladies, of whose techniques survive growth/puberty first. =(

 

 

 

 

Judging by you young and eunsoos jr grand prix results their mentality is keeping them off the podium. Or its that 3 lz 3 toe loop isnt enough anymore. 

 

All olympic champions have won gold at Jr grand prix final 

 

 

Evan lysacheck, yuna kim, yuzuru hanyu, adelina sotnikova and alina zagitova have all been the top of the podium during their jr years.

 

There has never been a case after jr grand prix series were invented that a non gold medalist frm the jr stage (jr worlds or jr grand prix final) have become a olympic champion. 

 

So im guessing those that are at least on the podium at jr worlds or jr grand prix final have a way higher chance of becoming beijing ogm.

 

Having bad results on the jr stage means u r way unlikely to be on the podium at the senior stage. Senior stage is much tougher. I have neved seen a case where a skater who has bombed jr results move up to senior top level podium.

[Xen]

17 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

 

 

Judging by you young and eunsoos jr grand prix results their mentality is keeping them off the podium. Or its that 3 lz 3 toe loop isnt enough anymore. 

 

All olympic champions have won gold at Jr grand prix final 

 

 

Evan lysacheck, yuna kim, yuzuru hanyu, adelina sotnikova and alina zagitova have all been the top of the podium during their jr years.

 

There has never been a case after jr grand prix series were invented that a non gold medalist frm the jr stage (jr worlds or jr grand prix final) have become a olympic champion. 

 

So im guessing those that are at least on the podium at jr worlds or jr grand prix final have a way higher chance of becoming beijing ogm.

 

Having bad results on the jr stage means u r way unlikely to be on the podium at the senior stage. Senior stage is much tougher. I have neved seen a case where a skater who has bombed jr results move up to senior top level podium.

Both are still juniors, and I would say that their competition now is even fiercer among the junior ranks now than before. The technical content of the junior ladies is very significant, think of the 3As and 4S jumps that Adelina, Zagitova didn't have to face. Also Yuna and Mao didn't have that much competiton, other than each other, in the junior ranks. 

 

 Quick correction-Eunsoo and You Young did not *bomb* in the junior ranks. They had one or 2 errors, but not bomb. Remember that so far, we have only seen results of the JGPF, not worlds yet, and the ladies who went to JGPF pretty much all won at least 1 event in the JGP series. Both Eunsoo and You Young had the misfortune of going against very tough competition, pretty much against the ladies who placed in the top 3 at the JGPF.  That's very tough luck, and any error, even small, would be problematic for them.

 

What I was also trying to say is that ladies field, just by junior results alone, is not enough to say who will get on the podium. For ladies, more than for men's field, who manages to hold on to their skillsets after puberty, is key. That's because usually puberty works against ladies, and works for the men. And given the competition and depth of ladies in Russia right now, we need to pray that the junior ladies we like in Russia right now, will be on the 2022 team.

[WinForPooh]

I'd direct you to Javier Fernandez's career, in that case.

 

There are plenty of skaters who do great in the junior circuit and don't live up to that potential as a senior, as well. This is especially true of junior girls because those who rely on very fast rotation speeds - for quads, for instance - find that their jumps suffer as their bodies change. Sasha Trusova is very young and very small, for instance. Whether she can keep those jumps will depend on how puberty treats her.