General Skating Chat

[OmNom]

 

I think it's absurd how they have to judge so many things right on the spot. not everything can be observed at once on the first try, so at least allow them to correct wrong calls! Is that too much logic to ask?

Figure skating is a spectator sport, and especially with television broadcast, you don't want the judging/scoring to take too long in coming so people don't stop watching at home. Hence not a really long time allowed to double check and change much of anything.

 

@ anyanee: I love your avatar. That cat is judging all of us.

 

So basically, figure skating should never become a judged sport? You have to sacrifice either fairness, or ratings?

Imho people who can't wait for 2 whole minutes more might not be equipped to follow fs in the first place :yes:

[OmNom]

It's such bollocks that they don't allow for slow-mo checking of everything, specially seeing as the use of technology is spreading to many other sports. It makes everyone's life easier and gives a much fairer image. I know people who enjoy the skating but don't follow the sport because they feel the judging is too influenced by petty politics and the like and the scoring's not fair. Saying it can't be implemented because audiences can't handle to wait a bit more for scores... *sigh*

 

 

:clap: :clap:

[xeyra]

 

I think it's absurd how they have to judge so many things right on the spot. not everything can be observed at once on the first try, so at least allow them to correct wrong calls! Is that too much logic to ask?

Figure skating is a spectator sport, and especially with television broadcast, you don't want the judging/scoring to take too long in coming so people don't stop watching at home. Hence not a really long time allowed to double check and change much of anything.

 

@ anyanee: I love your avatar. That cat is judging all of us.

 

So basically, figure skating should never become a judged sport? You have to sacrifice either fairness, or ratings?

Imho people who can't wait for 2 whole minutes more might not be equipped to follow fs in the first place :yes:

Not saying I agree with it, just giving a possible reason why things are as they are.

[meoima]

I don't think the issue is just 2 more minutes. After Olympic ends they will cut one jump pass and 30 seconds. They will have more time to check pre-rotation for sure.

The point is, they can clearly see pre-rotation especially with the Flip and Lutz (because these jumps are not supposed to have much pre rotation). You are allowed to see slow motion of the edge surely you know if someone cheats the revolution. Why you are not allowed to call it out is another issue.

[xeyra]

The point is, they can clearly see pre-rotation especially with the Flip and Lutz (because these jumps are not supposed to have much pre rotation). You are allowed to see slow motion of the edge surely you know if someone cheats the revolution. Why you are not allowed to call it out is another issue.

I definitely agree that if you're already checking for edge on a Flip or Lutz, you're already seeing the takeoff so there's really no excuse about not seeing pre-rotation. But if a skater actually has a clearly correct edge on a jump that doesn't call for slow-mo, then there's probably no reason for the tech panel to check the take-off for other reasons (for all complaints about Shoma's 3.5 Flip, he does have an inside edge). And excessive pre-rotation is obviously not a priority, compared to URs.

[meoima]

I definitely agree that if you're already checking for edge on a Flip or Lutz, you're already seeing the takeoff so there's really no excuse about not seeing pre-rotation. But if a skater actually has a clearly correct edge on a jump that doesn't call for slow-mo, then there's probably no reason for the tech panel to check the take-off for other reasons (for all complaints about Shoma's 3.5 Flip, he does have an inside edge). And excessive pre-rotation is obviously not a priority, compared to URs.

It's not even 3.5, it's 3.25 Flip. And it's funny they didn't find it suspicious especially compared to Nathan's true 4F.

That's why it is hilarious to see Shoma's team didn't stop him from trying out 4lz even though his 3lz is actually 2.25 Flutz. I can't believe how dense they are. I mean... Orser clearly stated Yuzuru would never do 4F. And frankly I still think Yuzuru didn't try 4F at WTT gala practice. I think people mistook it.

[xeyra]

meoima said:

Quote

I definitely agree that if you're already checking for edge on a Flip or Lutz, you're already seeing the takeoff so there's really no excuse about not seeing pre-rotation. But if a skater actually has a clearly correct edge on a jump that doesn't call for slow-mo, then there's probably no reason for the tech panel to check the take-off for other reasons (for all complaints about Shoma's 3.5 Flip, he does have an inside edge). And excessive pre-rotation is obviously not a priority, compared to URs.

It's not even 3.5, it's 3.25 Flip. And it's funny they didn't find it suspicious especially compared to Nathan's true 4F.

That's why it is hilarious to see Shoma's team didn't stop him from trying out 4lz even though his 3lz is actually 2.25 Flutz. I can't believe how dense they are. I mean... Orser clearly stated Yuzuru would never do 4F. And frankly I still think Yuzuru didn't try 4F at WTT gala practice. I think people mistook it.

I'm not sure Shoma's team knows how to properly restrain him, to be honest. They seem very encouraging of all his choices. This can be a good thing when the plan follows a logical thorough-line, but not so much when the plan is a 4Lz and you have a long and difficult relationship with an outside edge.

 

This, of course, if it IS Shoma making these decisions, which I usually tend to believe it is, because he looks like an awkward kid but he is a very ambitious young man.

[meoima]

xeyra said:

I'm not sure Shoma's team knows how to properly restrain him, to be honest. They seem very encouraging of all his choices. This can be a good thing when the plan follows a logical thorough-line, but not so much when the plan is a 4Lz and you have a long and difficult relationship with an outside edge.

This, of course, if it IS Shoma making these decisions, which I usually tend to believe it is, because he looks like an awkward kid but he is a very ambitious young man.

Ambition should go with understanding who you are. My people have this phrase: "Know who you are, know where you stand, and you will go far."

Orser clearly knows Yuzuru will least likely to do 4F and Yuzuru himself clearly know that. Even now he has correct slight inside edge in the flip, no still means no,

I really really wonder if Shoma knows he has a flutz. Or because they let him off the hook for so long, most of the time only give a ! Or no call, he thinks his lutz is correct?

Oh well and it's funny because it seems the e call in the lutz at WTT didn't seem to push Shoma's mind off the idea of trying out the "3.25 flutz".

[xeyra]

So, resuming the talk on layouts, here's a breakdown of possibilities that I can remember for both SP and FS.

 

Original SP

4Lo 4S3T // 3A - BV: 49.75

 

Quote

Layouts without 4Lz

4Lo 4T3T // 3A - BV: 49.55 (-0.20)

4Lo // 4T3T 3A - BV: 51.01 (+1.26)

4Lo // 4S3T 3A - BV: 51.23 (+1.48)

// 4Lo 4S3T 3A - BV: 52.43 (+2.68) aka the Medvedeva

Quote

Layouts with 4Lz

4Lz 4T3T // 3A - BV: 51.15 (+1.40)

4Lz 4S3T // 3A - BV: 51.35 (+1.60)

4Lz // 4T3T 3A - BV: 52.61 (+2.86)

4Lz // 4S3T 3A - BV: 52.83 (+3.08)

4Lz 4Lo3T // 3A - BV: 52.85 (+3.10)

4Lz // 4Lo3T 3A - BV: 54.48 (+4.73)

 

Original FS

4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 103.43

 

Quote

Layouts without 4Lz

4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T2T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz 3A - BV: 103.43 (+0.00) only difference is -2T combo on 4T instead of 3A

4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A2T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 105.08 (+1.65)

4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 105.41 (+1.98)

4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 107.06 (+3.63) or use 4T2T and 3A1Lo3S

4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A2T 4S1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 107.28 (+3.85) or use 4S2T and 3A1Lo3S

Quote

Layouts with 4Lz

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 109.83 (+6.40)

4Lz 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A3T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 109.98 (+6.55)

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 111.26 (+7.83) or use 4T2T and 3A1Lo3S

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 4S 3A1Lo3S 3A2T - BV: 111.48 (+8.05) or use 4T2T and 3A or 3A2T and 4S1Lo3S

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4Lo3T 4S 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 113.13 (+9.70)

 

I haven't even considered taking out the 3F and keeping the 3Lz... or a -3Lo combo

 

So what can we figure out from these BV calculations?

- Adding a 4Lz in the FS, even if nothing else changes and even if he only does 4 quads, in itself already gives him an over 6-point BV difference to his current layout.

- The difference between a 5-quad layout to a 4-quad layout with 4Lz is only about 1.43-1.65, unless he repeats 4Lo.

- Losing one 3A to get 5 quads in a non-4Lz layout doesn't bring that much of an advantage, unless he repeats 4Lo.

- Total original BV is 153.18. If he were to use the lowest BV layout with 4Lz in both SP and FS, he would gain about 8 points in BV.

 

Which one do you think he'd go for? Speculate. Alternative layouts I haven't thought of?

 

Resources

[Yoa]

This is my fave :grin:

 

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 109.83 (+6.40)

 

Pros:

+huge increase in base value

+not too many changes. He did 3A-3T a couple of times in competition. 4Lz is the only new jump

+We know he can execute 4 quads in FS (he did it 3(?)times: 4CC, WC, WTT),

+he has enough stamina to execute this kind of program,

+other elements won't suffer that much,

 

Cons:

-adding a new jump during Oly season is risky

-we don't know if his edge on 3F won't suffer because of 4Lz (and those 2 jumps are quite close to each other)

-with 4Lz, there is a bigger risk of injuring his landing foot

-no rippon :cry:

[meoima]

-we don't know if his edge on 3F won't suffer because of 4Lz (and those 2 jumps are quite close to each other)

-with 4Lz, there is a bigger risk of injuring his landing foot

-no rippon :cry:

4lz has no effect on 3F. Lutz edge has no connection to Flip edge. It's the 3lz might be affected by 4lz but if he does 4lz then he won't do 3lz anymore so it is not an issue.

4lz has no more risk on the landing foot (right leg) than other quads.

[robin]

I'd be in favor of a 4-quad layout with the added 4Lz- it would give him so much room to make up for his mistakes- but he seems pretty set on having 5 quads. Increase in BV seems kind of secondary to Yuzu compared to a few other factors. (Like flow of the program-eg. he put the 3F almost at the end of the first half in H&L and I would also argue raise in difficulty.)

 

I have a feeling he's going to go to 5 quads, the question is more is he going to do it with or without the 4Lz.

[xeyra]

This is my fave :grin:

 

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 109.83 (+6.40)

 

Pros:

+huge increase in base value

+not too many changes. He did 3A-3T a couple of times in competition. 4Lz is the only new jump

+We know he can execute 4 quads in FS (he did it 3(?)times: 4CC, WC, WTT),

+he has enough stamina to execute this kind of program,

+other elements won't suffer that much,

 

Cons:

-adding a new jump during Oly season is risky

-we don't know if his edge on 3F won't suffer because of 4Lz (and those 2 jumps are quite close to each other)

-with 4Lz, there is a bigger risk of injuring his landing foot

-no rippon :cry:

 

It's my favorite as well. And doesn't even require that much of a change in his layout except to add a new jump.

 

As for the cons, I highlight the 3F part, which is a good point. But if he does it after the Step Sequence as he already does now, it might not be too close together, and doesn't he already do the circular-turns-step-choreography-thingie ( :grin: ) to keep his inside edge?

 

And the landing foot issue is problematic too, yes. As is the fact he has a deeper outside edge on his 4Lz than his 3Lz even, which may put more pressure on the left foot. Plus the back problems that apparently are already plaguing Mikhail Kolyada. Plus... Every jump is a risk, though.

[Yoa]

-we don't know if his edge on 3F won't suffer because of 4Lz (and those 2 jumps are quite close to each other)

-with 4Lz, there is a bigger risk of injuring his landing foot

-no rippon :cry:

4lz has no effect on 3F. Lutz edge has no connection to Flip edge. It's the 3lz might be affected by 4lz but if he does 4lz then he won't do 3lz anymore so it is not an issue.

4lz has no more risk on the landing foot (right leg) than other quads.

 

really? I read a few days ago that Yuna injured her landing foot because she did a lot of lutzes and I thought that by doing a quad you need to use more force than usual with a toepick.

And I read (on GS...) that doing lutzes and flips close to each other may effect the weaker jump.

Anyway if it's not true then it means that there are less cons for this kind of layout :grin:

[mcq]

really? I read a few days ago that Yuna injured her landing foot because she did a lot of lutzes and I thought that by doing a quad you need to use more force than usual with a toepick.

And I read (on GS...) that doing lutzes and flips close to each other may effect the weaker jump.

Anyway if it's not true then it means that there are less cons for this kind of layout :grin:

 

Yuna had trouble with her 3F (she received an edge call at worlds 2013), after her 3Lz became much stronger, but I would not say that it is going to affect Yuzuru per se. I'd say he has found a way to mask his flat edge at the flip by doing that crazy entry he did to keep his edge from going outside.

I was the one who said that I worry about his landing foot, simply because Yuzuru himself has injured his lysfranc doing 4T in the previous season. But since his toepick foot for 4T is not the same with his landing foot, it is less of a concern. 4Lz (and also 4F) would be a different thing because he is going to pick and land with the same foot, so if there is lysfranc problem due to overtraining on that foot (knock woods), it is going to be more of a concern.