General Skating Chat

[fireovertheice]

42 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

Will you be doing this kind of analysis through the season? Is it okay to add to my men's comparison spreadsheet?

 

Your spreadsheets are awesome ! (I didn't see all of them before, but only that about Yuzuru, that is so huge, and so well done ).

 

I will do this kind of analysis only for the FS of the top men (1 comp) and then the six qualifyers for the GPF (av. on 2 comps). It depends by the rythm of my work, that usually give me more free time just in this period of the year.

 

So, I do not know if they are enough for your spreadsheet about GPF, where I have seen you are tracking all the skaters and taking in consideration SP & FS, rightly so.

However, if you think that those data could be useful and/or interesting to add there, there's no problem for me.

I had already set a spreadsheet with also other data and also tried some graphics: so, if you are interested in, we can also speak about it in a more detailed way via pm.

[Xen]

3 hours ago, fireovertheice said:

 

Your spreadsheets are awesome ! (I didn't see all of them before, but only that about Yuzuru, that is so huge, and so well done ).

 

I will do this kind of analysis only for the FS of the top men (1 comp) and then the six qualifyers for the GPF (av. on 2 comps). It depends by the rythm of my work, that usually give me more free time just in this period of the year.

 

So, I do not know if they are enough for your spreadsheet about GPF, where I have seen you are tracking all the skaters and taking in consideration SP & FS, rightly so.

However, if you think that those data could be useful and/or interesting to add there, there's no problem for me.

I had already set a spreadsheet with also other data and also tried some graphics: so, if you are interested in, we can also speak about it in a more detailed way via pm.

question does anyone plan to expand this to include other skaters such as Cha Junhwa, Deniss V., Vincent Zhou? Since they are up and coming skaters, their stats might be interesting too.

[CupidsBow]

3 minutes ago, Xen said:

question does anyone plan to expand this to include other skaters such as Cha Junhwa, Deniss V., Vincent Zhou? Since they are up and coming skaters, their stats might be interesting too.

 

I could expand my men's comparison sheet? Vincent has made it on for the Grand Prix sheets because he finished 4th at COC, I'll add Deniss if he finishes high enough at NHK, but I could add the three to more general stats (the jump rates, program comparisons which at the moment I'm just doing the top 10 going off isu world standing). I did the more detailed sheets for Yuzuru and Shoma because I'm....their fan lmao. I might do one for Junhwan eventually because I'm already pretty invested in him...

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

On 2017/11/6 at 午前4時1分, getsurenkaさんが言いました:

Also, do you think it make a significant impact on their development as competitive skaters, such as do they have better results when they made the switch earlier in their career than later in their career? On a personal note, do you think Yuzuru would benefitted from an earlier switch, like would he have "better" techniques as a skater now if he did that? I have seen in multiple places Yuzuru really benefitted from the switch to TCC and had really improved as a skater, which make his successful Olympic season possible. 

 

Had he switched earlier, there's a chance he wouldn't have had gone through what he did in 2011. And he definitely wouldn't have done those 60 shows around the country, using the venues as grounds for practicing. He wouldn't have known what it's like to have lost his rink twice (it'd only be just the one time--not that that isn't plenty already), and he may never have found out what it's like to skate for someone other than himself. Those are all character-building stuff that can't be taught by any coach.

 

Abe helped lay the foundations of his core values as both skater and human being. The way he never stops challenging himself, never being satisfied, staying true to who he really is,  the way he expresses himself within his choreography, everything that he's doing now, you can still see very strong traces of her teachings within.

 

Yes he'd have developed differently in certain areas but he is the person we know and admire today not due in small part to all that he's been taught and experienced on homeground so I'm not sure he'd be "better".

 

Also, had he left for elsewhere earlier, that performance in Nice back in 2012 wouldn't have happened. Abe did that with Hanyu.

 

The Olympic win in 2014 was a culmination of his experiences up until then and those include all that he has learned in Japan. He probably wouldnt have won had he stayed in Japan but we also don't know if he'd have won had he not stayed for as long as he did. For all the very good work they are able to do, Orser and his team can only do 30% of it. The other 70% is the skaters themselves and what they have learned in their past. 

 

It's heartbreaking what he and those around him went through and no one deserves to have gone through all those but really, knowing who he is today and what he has achieved despite the fact, would you have had it any other way?

[xeyra]

@Xen

I've been including some of the new men (Mikhail and Vincent) in my GOE averages spreadsheet but that's just for protocol data. I still need to start doing the jump success rate tables for them too. Not sure if that's what you meant, though. Anyone else whose stats you'd like me to include? 

@CupidsBow's sheet is so much better, by the way. 

 

@fireovertheice

Yuzu's time in 1ft skating in his Step Sequence seems to be lower than others in that table. Is this because his Step Sequence is also shorter in length? 

Edit: Actually, might I suggest adding to the table the time length of those step and choreo sequences for easier comparative reading?

[xeyra]

Speaking of choreographic sequences, there's a video of them here:

 

I am again reminded how much I love Seimei's choreo sequence and how effective those long spreadeagles are in Vincent's. 

[fireovertheice]

5 hours ago, xeyra said:

@fireovertheice

Yuzu's time in 1ft skating in his Step Sequence seems to be lower than others in that table. Is this because his Step Sequence is also shorter in length? 

Edit: Actually, might I suggest adding to the table the time length of those step and choreo sequences for easier comparative reading?

 

Nop: if you make the count of the percentage on the total.

Yuzu skates on one foot in total 56 secs., in his StSq the steps, turns and spiral on one foot amount to the 41.96% on the total 56 secs. i.e. in the  StSq he skates on one foot for 23,49 secs.

For Kolyada and Shoma the time of one foot skating in the StSq is easier to count: 50% on 40 secs. total, i.e. 20 secs on one foot during their StSq.

For Nathan, if one make the same count, one foot skating in StSq amount to 19,99 secs, while Boyang's time is around 14 secs (but I think that his FS at CoC had various problems as he said and we will see in the next comp).

So the average is 20 secs. for almost all the others, and Yuzuru is skating on one foot 3.50 secs more than them (2,5%+).

 

In general, also the lenght of the StSq is not so much different among these skaters, with the exception of Yuzu, as usal :D:

Yuzuru 48 secs. ca.

Kolyada 40 secs ca.

Nathan 41 secs. ca.

Shoma 41 secs. ca.

Boyang 41 secs ca.

 

This is because Yuzuru takes lesser time to prepare the jumps and sometimes he is also faster in rotation, so he "spares" seconds that he uses for connecting better the elements and also give us more beautiful and difficult coreographic movements. It is amazing how he can take speed with few stokes or how he can sometimes jump quads/3A with so no much speed: this is his genius, as once Kurt said.

Probably his values, in transitions and one foot skating are more closer to those of Fernandez and Chan (that I haven't calculated in detail yet), but we have to remember that they have an easier layout in term of jump. So what Yuzuru is planning to do this year with his FS is really amazing and extraordinary. Let's cross our fingers for the next comps!

 

To conclude: your observation is right @xeyra and I will take you suggestion and I will include those data in the spreadsheet for better clarity.

[xeyra]

10 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

Whole post

 

Thank you so much for the clarification!

 

10 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

Probably his values, in transitions and one foot skating are more closer to those of Fernandez and Chan (that I haven't calculated in detail yet), but we have to remember that they have an easier layout in term of jump. So what Yuzuru is planning to do this year with his FS is really amazing and extraordinary. Let's cross our fingers for the next comps!

 

I'm hoping so much that he does manage to skate this clean and deliver all this difficulty with the amazing quality he is capable of, at the very least on the Olympics individual men event. I'll settle for progressive improvement until then.  

[fireovertheice]

6 hours ago, Xen said:

question does anyone plan to expand this to include other skaters such as Cha Junhwa, Deniss V., Vincent Zhou? Since they are up and coming skaters, their stats might be interesting too.

 

Yes, you are right, but frankly for the time I have now and for my interests, I am doing only the top men, to understand better - or in some cases to dicuss - some part of the PCS scores that have the possibilty to have a mark more relatable to something countable/objective and not so subjective, such as IN and PE.

 

I do think now, for example, that we can say without any bias that the scores for SS (9.29) and TR (8.89) at SC Canada for Shoma's FS have been way to high. They would have been in the range of those of Nathan at CoR (SS: 8.96, TR: 8.57). Seen the program as a whole, I think that also that 9.11 for Co (8.89 for Nathan) was too high, but I know that is subject is more debatable.  And I know that is related to the values and performaces of the skaters in that competion too, but really...

[xeyra]

13 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

I do think now, for example, that we can say without any bias that the scores for SS (9.29) and TR (8.89) at SC Canada for Shoma's FS have been way to high. They would have been in the range of those of Nathan at CoR (SS: 8.96, TR: 8.57). Seen the program as a whole, I think that also that 9.11 for Co (8.89 for Nathan) was too high, but I know that is subject is more debatable.  And I know that is related to the values and performaces of the skaters in that competion too, but really...

 

How much should one-foot skating weigh on the overall criteria for skating skills, though, comparatively to the other criteria? Shoma excells in other criteria of SS, like rhytmic knee action, flow and effortless glide, and deep edges; much better than Nathan in my opinion. He over relies on crossovers and two-foot skating according to these counts, so I guess 10s should be out of the question for him in this component, but what we see is that judges value the things he does well over the things he doesn't do as much of. Which doesn't encourage him much to change things in the FS but he has shown improvement in the SP in this! But, in the end, how much should he be punished for the two criteria he doesn't excel at as well compared to those he does?

 

These are the criteria for Skating Skills score:

Spoiler

Skating Skills

Definition:

Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. 

 

Criteria: 

• Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement 
• Flow and effortless glide 
  • Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration. 
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns 
  • The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps. 
• Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration 
  • Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle 
• Multi directional skating 
  • Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions. 
• Mastery of one foot skating 
  • No over use of skating on two feet. 

 

After seeing how short his choreographic sequence is and what it involves, I'd be more concerned about him getting +3 on that over low 9s in his SS.  And I say this as someone who really likes the cantilever moment. 

[katonice]

13 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

How much should one-foot skating weigh on the overall criteria for skating skills, though, comparatively to the other criteria? Shoma excells in other criteria of SS, like rhytmic knee action, flow and effortless glide, and deep edges; much better than Nathan in my opinion. He over relies on crossovers and two-foot skating according to these counts, so I guess 10s should be out of the question for him in this component, but what we see is that judges value the things he does well over the things he doesn't do as much of. Which doesn't encourage him much to change things in the FS but he has shown improvement in the SP in this! But, in the end, how much should he be punished for the two criteria he doesn't excel at as well compared to those he does?

 

These are the criteria for Skating Skills score:

  Reveal hidden contents

Skating Skills

Definition:

Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. 

 

Criteria: 

• Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement 
• Flow and effortless glide 
  • Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration. 
• Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns 
  • The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps. 
• Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration 
  • Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle 
• Multi directional skating 
  • Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions. 
• Mastery of one foot skating 
  • No over use of skating on two feet. 

 

After seeing how short his choreographic sequence is and what it involves, I'd be more concerned about him getting +3 on that over low 9s in his SS.  And I say this as someone who really likes the cantilever moment. 

I could be wrong but I think one of the main reasons people were commenting on Shoma's SS is how close he scored relative to Patrick (who also excels in the areas mentioned and others besides) at SCI. (But yes, it could be argued that Patrick's mistakes didn't do him any favors here, but then that would be another discussion.)

In comparison to Nathan, however, I believe most people agree that yes he should be getting the higher scores.

[xeyra]

8 minutes ago, katonice said:

I could be wrong but I think one of the main reasons people were commenting on Shoma's SS is how close he scored relative to Patrick (who also excels in the areas mentioned and others besides) at SCI. (But yes, it could be argued that Patrick's mistakes didn't do him any favors here, but then that would be another discussion.)

In comparison to Nathan, however, I believe most people agree that yes he should be getting the higher scores.

 

Yeah, this reminds me of how certain judges scored Nathan higher or the same in SS as Patrick at 4CC, which was my first real time conflict with scoring since I first began following FS last season. Or how some gave the same in SS to Nathan and Yuzu at CoR, for example. 

 

I feel like if judges like you or you skate cleanish or better than someone else with better SS, it doesn't really matter and some will over reward you. This because judges don't have time to do the research that is done by fans. They have 4mins and 30s to evaluate and they may just wing it according to TES, politics or personal liking.

[fireovertheice]

@xeyra you are right in general about the knees and the edges of Shoma vs. those of Nathan, but to me the data I collected should be affect not only the voice "mastery of one foot skating", but also that of surenness of steps and turns (to me its is much easier and sure if you do them on two feet) and if you consider well also the balance, and then knee action, because is a good knee action that give the possibility to skaters to have better flow in turns and steps on one foot.

I do think that Shoma does so much crossovers maybe because of his shorter legs, but the number is too high considering this factor too (almost double than Yuzu). So if you score Yuzuru SS in the 9.50's, for that skate 9.29 was too high and would be in the range of 8.75-9,00, IMO. The score for TR was a little better in comparison, but still a litte bit high.

I say these things because in the next months competitions also a couple of points will make the difference between the winner and the second (so it was also in the last Worlds!), so to me it is important to understand well this scores - and why they are given so now.

 

You say

Quote

I feel like if judges like you or you skate cleanish or better than someone else with better SS, it doesn't really matter and some will over reward you.

 

And this is the problem, discussed also by Ambesi for example. If your TES are in a certain amount/range, PCS follows, without making any distinction among the five parts that form it. On the contrary: they try to mantain the various components in the same range and also the judges in the same "corridor", as we have seen at SC for the ladies (difference in some scores between Sp and Fs).

 

While judges can not have time to evaluate in detail during the competition, I am sure that they know well the content of the programs in term of jumps , elements and transition at a certain level and of the top competitors, and sure they will do for the Olympics.

Certainly they do not read the analysis of the fans, but I hope that if sport journalists, fans and also some technicians let them know that also this aspects are monitored well, the maybe would have more attention in what they are doing. 

 

Said that, I am happy that Yuzuru uppered his technic content: he knows very well his opponents and the world of FS!.

[katonice]

17 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, this reminds me of how certain judges scored Nathan higher or the same in SS as Patrick at 4CC, which was my first real time conflict with scoring since I first began following FS last season. Or how some gave the same in SS to Nathan and Yuzu at CoR, for example. 

 

I feel like if judges like you or you skate cleanish or better than someone else with better SS, it doesn't really matter and some will over reward you. This because judges don't have time to do the research that is done by fans. They have 4mins and 30s to evaluate and they may just wing it according to TES, politics or personal liking.

I do wonder if the scoring at SCI contributed somewhat to Patrick's seeming "deflated" attitude afterwards.

If he's not getting any favors in his own home competition, that must grate a lot on his confidence.

I'm probably reading too much into it though. It's just really saddening to see Patrick so discouraged and unmotivated, and in this season of all times.

 

And yeah, the judges probably don't have much time to think about the scores as much as we do.

Max and Angelo also acknowledged the difficulty judges face.

But if it's really becoming a problem, and happening too often and affecting the results of so many competitions, then the ISU should really start doing something about it.

The judging system for synchronised swimming comes to mind sometimes, where there's a separate panel that judges the artistic merits of programs and a separate panel that judges the technical.

I know, easier said than done though (issues with budget, competition length, etc.). It just bothers me a bit that we're giving allowances to judges over something not so trivial and can really impact the outcome of a competition. If it most obviously needs fixing, then well... 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

@xeyra you are right in general about the knees and the edges of Shoma vs. those of Nathan, but to me the data I collected should be affect not only the voice "mastery of one foot skating", but also that of surenness of steps and turns (to me its is much easier and sure if you do them on two feet) and if you consider well also the balance, and then knee action, because is a good knee action that give the possibility to skaters to have better flow in turns and steps on one foot.

I do think that Shoma does so much crossovers maybe because of his shorter legs, but the number is too high considering this factor too (almost double than Yuzu). So if you score Yuzuru SS in the 9.50's, for that skate 9.29 was too high and would be in the range of 8.75-9,00, IMO. The score for TR was a little better in comparison, but still a litte bit high.

I say these things because in the next months competitions also a couple of points will make the difference between the winner and the second (so it was also in the last Worlds!), so to me it is important to understand well this scores - and why they are given so now.

 

This is actually a good point, thank you. So this brings into question even more what happened at Skate Canada in terms of Shoma's and Patrick's SS scores, which had only a 0.10 difference (Patrick's 9.39 to Shoma's 9.29) in the SP and which Shoma won in the FS. Because when you confront someone like Patrick - who excels at deep edges and rhythmic knee action but is able to maintain the quality of those aspects while doing less crossovers and two-foot skating - with Shoma, then it seems unfair that at SC Patrick lost the SS component in the FS, regardless of his mistakes. Because those mistakes were mostly related to popping and losing BV; he had only 1 fall, it's not like he was unable to demonstrate his skills because he was falling all over the place, like at GPF, for example. There's absolutely no differentiation, and in fact it's not in his favor even, between Patrick's SS and Shoma's SS, despite the first maintaining his SS quality while meeting more SS criteria than the latter. 

 

But his TES was low and Shoma's was higher, so that was what sealed the deal.