Japanese study group

[Hydroblade]

I can't shut up about this but. This is a song by Sekai no Owari that i like a lot and it reminds me of Yuzu so much </3

[Geo1]

I am a third-generation Japanese-Canadian born in Japan, registered as a Canadian citizen on birth and have lived in Canada since I was two and half years old. Japanese was my first language because my mother is Japanese (and my father is a second-generation Japanese-Canadian, his grandfather having come to Canada from Japan in 1897). By the time I finished grade 1 in elementary school, however, I was speaking English like a nativeborn Canadian with no Japanese accent. I have never attended Japanese language school or studies.

 

My spoken Japanese and my understanding of spoken Japanese was limited until my mother's relatives started to visit us. This spurred my interest in improving my Japanese. My fluency in spoken Japanese improved after a number of visits to Japan. It has improved 1000% or more since marrying my Japanese wife 26 years ago because Japanese is the language that we use to communicate with each other. The fact that Japanese was my first language has made it much easier to learn how to speak and pronounce Japanese words correctly.

 

This is very basic, but the advice I give to people trying to pronounce Japanese words that are spelled out in Romaji is to pronounce each and every vowel individually. There are some exceptions, for example, whenever there is an "u" after an "o", I suggest to people that they not worry about it and emphasize the "o" sound because the "u" sound is subtle. Usually these "u" vowels appear at the end of the word after "o".

 

True linguists will probably strongly disagree with me but the general rules that I follow in pronouncing vowels when reading Japanese words in Romaji are as follows:

 

"a" is pronounced similar to "ah" and never like the "a" in "apple" or the "a" in "ate".

 

"i" is pronounced like a long "e" – "ee", but not drawn out. So the letter "i" in the name"Hino" is pronounced like the "i" in "chino" or the name "Gina". It is never pronounced like the "i" in the word "like".

 

"e" is pronounced similar to "eh" like the "e" in the word "egg" or the name "Ben". It is never pronounced as a long "e".

 

"o" is pronounced just like the letter "o" as in the word "no". It is never pronounced like the "o" in the word "not".

 

"u" is pronounced similar to the French word "ou" (the word for "where" in English). It is never pronounced like the "u" in the words "uniform"or "university".

 

And I repeat: you pronounce each vowel individually even if you see two or three vowels next to each other. If you take your time pronouncing each vowel individually without rushing, you will steadily improve in pronunciation.

 

As an example, the vowels "e" and "i" together as in the word "Seimei" would sound close to "say-may" pronouncing the vowels individually but strung together. You would never say "see-me".

 

The word for "watch" or "clock" – "tokei" – would sound similar to "tow-kay", never "tow-kee".

 

The word for "house" or "residence" – "ie" – would sound close to "ee-eh".

 

I hope that this is not too basic for everyone..

[SparkleSalad]

3 hours ago, Puniyo said:

There is a fan community on Livejournal with quite a lot of translations if you're interested ^^

 

And idol songs have lyrics that are easy to grasp, so again, a boost for learning (although most of them are not my cup of tea). I still listen to anime songs more than anything. I was so happy when I could understand the lyrics of songs from Kimi no Na Wa (Your Name) with checking translations. 

This is the best way to memorise vocabulary. If you learn the lyrics phonetically, once those words come up in your study you'll already have them firmly implanted in your brain. It really is a thrill when a song you've been singing mindlessly finally reveals its meaning to you. 

[Murieleirum]

10 hours ago, Puniyo said:

There is a fan community on Livejournal with quite a lot of translations if you're interested ^^

 

And idol songs have lyrics that are easy to grasp, so again, a boost for learning (although most of them are not my cup of tea). I still listen to anime songs more than anything. I was so happy when I could understand the lyrics of songs from Kimi no Na Wa (Your Name) with checking translations. 

 

I will search for that community! Thanks! (Also, Kimi no Na Wa <3)

 

Me, personally, I do share the feelings Hydro talked about, about understanding the 'general idea' behind Japanese conversation, feeling like it is familiar - I think this is because Japanese is a special language that uses context so much, it kinda... doesn't allow you to talk if you're not paying attention, it doesn't allow you to understand if you're not there with your heart. I don't know if this explanation is clear at all, but this is what I feel. Also, I feel like the sentence structure demands quicker thinking, or at least a different way of thinking, compared to my native sentence structure. 

Anyways, for now, I guess vocabulary on the side, the biggest thing that stops me from just going and reading random books or newspapers, is the grammar. Sure, I can search up kanji's, I can search up words, but if I cannot identify the grammar rule that binds these words together... if that 'ni' particle is used in a way I haven't yet studied... I won't be able to precisely translate. So, I want to focus my studies a lot on grammar. 

 

19 hours ago, AmudoBun said:

I finished Genki2 last June. During the summer holidays I was in Japan for a month - the peak of my Japanese knowledge. I started Uni in October and I didn't know how to fit in Japanese classes (there are no at my uni) and since then I slowly forget all I knew - hopefully I'll somehow find a way to start learning again next year^^

 

Genki2 with Genki1 has all the grammar there is to it, right? What was your level (or even your confidence) after finishing it? 
I will be starting it soon. 

[surimi]

On 23. 5. 2017 at 14:30, kitsune said:

Sorry I appear out of nowhere, just like to share a little bit about me. My Japanese is very weak I can read hiragana, a little katakana and almost nothing kanji. I know very few words in Japanese and my grandmother (baa-chan) always gets angry when I do not understand her. Maybe I should practice more and I think I'm forgetting some things already. Some advice? And a little story: After becoming a Yuzu fan I started to pay more attention to the NHK channel (the only Japanese channel that passes in my country) and one of the first news I remember is him getting all three Guinness certificates.

 

Hi kitsune (and Emzie), glad to know I'm not the only beginner around. You two are further than me though, I have yet three remaining hiragana signs to remember, and most of the katakana. I'm at about 10 kanji too! ^ ^ That is, I recognize them, but cannot yet write them. Anyone else suffering setbacks with the two basic systems? Just today, I was going through the hiragana in my head while washing the dishes, and found to my dismay that I couldn't recall what a couple of them look like. I recognize the signs when I see them written, though.

Kitsune, I'd recommend talking to your gran (she's Japanese, I take it?) and writing emails to her at least once a week. It's hard in the beginning, but practice makes it smoother and faster. I practice Polish this way (though sadly, I don't have any relatives I could talk to in foreign languages), and I see some very slow improvement. It would make your gran happy too, wouldn't it?

[surimi]

On 24. 5. 2017 at 00:44, Geo1 said:

"o" is pronounced just like the letter "o" as in the word "no". It is never pronounced like the "o" in the word "not".

 

[...]

 

As an example, the vowels "e" and "i" together as in the word "Seimei" would sound close to "say-may" pronouncing the vowels individually but strung together. You would never say "see-me".

 

The word for "watch" or "clock" – "tokei" – would sound similar to "tow-kay", never "tow-kee".

 

 

Hi Geo1, thanks for your insight! I hope to drop in here often! I picked out two points of your post  which are unclear to me.

1. I don't think the representation for 'e' is accurate? That would mean 'hito' would be pronounced as 'hii-toe' and 'Satoko' would rhyme with 'Costco'? Is the short Japanese 'o' rather not closer to the 'o' in, say, Italian or German or Spanish? As for the long 'o', the one transcribed with a macron above it, I think it would correspond to the sound of 'aw' in 'law', or perhaps just a tad longer?

2. I am now utterly confused about the 'ei' pronunciation. Some sources and users say it's just a long 'e', like 'é' in French or 'eh' in German, and some say it's 'ei', like the 'ey' in the English 'hey'. So which is it, am I speaking [égo] or '[eygo] right now. Help.

[Murieleirum]

Explaining pronounciation is always better with audio examples, tho xD When I speak with a Chinese friend in Chinese, I often pick up correct pronounciation by repeating what he says. 

 

Oh, but that was not to undermine @Geo1's explanation! I read all your post and find your 'origin story' with Japanese terribly interesting  I am pretty certain that the fastest/best way to learn a language is to find a partner/close friend with whom to speak the language on a daily basis, during the most basic moments of everyday life. 

[Pamigena]

3 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

Explaining pronounciation is always better with audio examples, tho 

 

forvo.com can be a good source for that :)

[Murieleirum]

37 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

forvo.com can be a good source for that :)

 

Nice! Thanks!

^{(ps: I'm hopelessly in love with your avatar. What to do... )}

[Pamigena]

Actually, going through the list of words on forvo could be good exercise for beginners. There's lots of words only in kana, and some that are in kanji are transcribed, so you could practice your reading and then check the pronunciation with the audio files.

 

 

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

^{(ps: I'm hopelessly in love with your avatar. What to do... )}

always keep a glass of water ready so you don't dehydrate? 

(I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm gonna post the whole picture on my tumblr :D the big one is even better)

[Murieleirum]

32 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

always keep a glass of water ready so you don't dehydrate? 

(I haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm gonna post the whole picture on my tumblr :D the big one is even better)

 

D: D: D: me wantsies. 

[Danibellerika]

Oh goodie! This thread seems great! When I get some time I'll look over each post in here. But yeah I've studied Japanese on and off since college in 2006 so it's been a little while. I continued with a tutor after I graduated. But with smart phones and computer programs becoming so useful now, I can study Japanese on my own. I'm sure I'm making some minor mistakes but it's more convenient to my life right now than taking classes again (and it's cheaper).  

 

The mention of music is really interesting. I actually had an ah-ha moment when I learned Real Folk Blue from Cowboy Bebop. I knew the words, but then later on as I was building vocabulary I was like "holy crap, now I know what it means!" haha. I mean I read translations but I could figure it out word for word finally.  

[五十嵐 美幸]

I was browsing here a bit just out of curiosity, but as it seems there is a bit of confusion about the pronunciation of Japanese vowel - and in no way meaning to disparage Geo3's excellent case by case explanation! - as a quick and easy to remember hint, vowels in Japanese are generally pronounced like vowels are in German or Spanish. :)

 

Of course that's not all there is to it - ^^; - but it's a better way to remember than trying to figure out ways to relate to the mysteries of English pronunciation, I think.

 

Also, I can't promise to answer quickly always, but I'd be willing to answer PM questions regarding Japanese usage - for want of a better word - or maybe I should say "applied Japanese." (I won't be able to help with grammar much; I don't think Japanese really has grammar, not like European languages, and the explanations I read in foreign Japanese language books always leave me completely confused...)

 

それで、皆さん、頑張ってください。

[Hydroblade]

19 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

I was browsing here a bit just out of curiosity, but as it seems there is a bit of confusion about the pronunciation of Japanese vowel - and in no way meaning to disparage Geo3's excellent case by case explanation! - as a quick and easy to remember hint, vowels in Japanese are generally pronounced like vowels are in German or Spanish. :)

 

Of course that's not all there is to it - ^^; - but it's a better way to remember than trying to figure out ways to relate to the mysteries of English pronunciation, I think.

 

Also, I can't promise to answer quickly always, but I'd be willing to answer PM questions regarding Japanese usage - for want of a better word - or maybe I should say "applied Japanese." (I won't be able to help with grammar much; I don't think Japanese really has grammar, not like European languages, and the explanations I read in foreign Japanese language books always leave me completely confused...)

 

それで、皆さん、頑張ってください。

Well, i feel the same because i'm diving into the grammar just now and it doesn't make any sense  i "get it" because i'm so used to the language, it just "clicks" in my head. 

The approach of our teacher is similar to what you're saying, he teaches us in a more practical approach rather than trying to make us remember grammatical rules  An example of how clueless i am with grammar: I am in level three, almost finishing it... And i have no idea about the verb groups Seriously, if you tell me "that verb is conjugated this way because it's in group II you might as well be speaking an alien language because i don't know the difference  i know how to conjugate the verbs because i know the words and i know how they should sound but... 

[surimi]

29 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

Also, I can't promise to answer quickly always, but I'd be willing to answer PM questions regarding Japanese usage - for want of a better word - or maybe I should say "applied Japanese." (I won't be able to help with grammar much; I don't think Japanese really has grammar, not like European languages, and the explanations I read in foreign Japanese language books always leave me completely confused...)

 

 

You are my saviour. I don't want to bother random people and some questions get unnoticed in fast-moving threads, so I rejoice I've found a volunteer to badger about Japanese.  

 

And lol, Hydroblade, reading your many posts about how all things Japanese feel natural to you, I can't help but feel you must have been a Japanese in one of your past lives. Learning the hiragana and katakana in just two days, I don't know how that's even humanly possible. O_o