makebelieveup

I don't agree. Being the first to do this or that is simply a milestone that could also be broken, just like a record. What separates a skater from the rest isn't simply what's on paper. It's what people witness they do on the ice. Someone else could be the first to land a quint or a quad axel, but if they lack the complete package, if they land it sloppily, if they drop every other aspect in order to achieve it, what we really get is "quad axel is landed" or "quint is land" rather than "John Doe landed the quad axel". What the skater wants to express with that jump or the way they deliver that jump is what truly separate them from other skaters. Shoma Uno was the first to land the quad flip, but people won't remember him as a great quad flip jumper. He has bad technique, a toe hammer, and underrotation problems. People prefer Nathan Chen's Quad Flip majority of the time. Vincent Zhou is the first to land the Quad Lutz at Olympic level. But his Quad Lutz, is that even a quad? Artur Dmitriev Jr. attempted the quad axel in competition and we all laughed when we watched it. It's all about what people witness on the ice. Yuzu wasn't the first to land 3A but people will always remember his 3A. I don't even know who was the first to land the 3A. Also, Dick Button isn't the first to win double consecutive (Media has certainly misinformed that information) He was the first to win double olympic gold in 12 years since Karl Schäfer. Yet even his legendary status that has persisted for so long. So yes, while I don't know if Yuzu's legendary status would persist after decades or not but only time will tell. Being the first to do this or that is great, but if they don't push themselves as a skater with everything else, it doesn't mean much to me. They could push the sport forward on paper, and then the sport would move forward without them. That kind of glory is shortlived. Being the first is great, being an olympic champion great, but it's all about what they really do on the ice that separates them from the rest. Yuzu just already happens to have both, but what really makes him a memorable skater is his skating skills, the quality of his technical elements, his commitment to every single detail of the program. and I think he doesn't need another 4a to secure his legendary status, now or later. and if he does land a 4a, it better be a program enhancement and received positive points. Otherwise, to him it means nothing.

I think he cares more about the 4A because it's a shorter term goal and more attainable. That doesn't downgrade the fact that winning another Olympic gold is the most desirable goal he could be having. While I agree that it would be great if he could be the first to land a 4A in competition, I personally cannot see how landing a 4A is more legendary than getting an Olympic medal or how being a double olympic champion is not exactly legendary yet. or correct me if i have misunderstood your point? If you ask any skater, i'm pretty sure most of them would choose winning their first Olympic gold medal over being the first for anything. On top of that, getting an Olympic gold medal isn't everything because not every gold medal is earned -- some are literally gifted-- it is the fashion in which Yuzu won his Olympic medal in that makes it most impressive. Other sports aside since I don't follow it (although one could obviously see how much more popular and huge Yuzu is compared to many other Winter sport atheletes) Yuzu's status in his discipline is as legendary as any skater could possibly wish to achieve. Yuzu isn't just a double olympic champion, he is the first to do so in 66 years among a very very deep and competitive field and during a period where corruption is peaking. So the fact that he skated on injured ankles and fought to be above the scoring system to dominate the game speaks volume about its impressiveness and prestige. and if he goes and win the 3rd gold medal, that means he would be first to win in probably 100 years. Winning an Olympic gold medal for the third time proves a skater's dominance, longevity, and further confirms their skills. Not to say he would be 27 by then, skating on a chronic injured ankles and with a worn out form, competing against an even deeper field, trying to be even more beyond the corruption; all of this, to me, is something you won't be able to see for the rest of your lifetime. So I don't get how being the first to land a 4A could be any better. So Yuzu has already earned that legendary despite not landing a 4A in competition. if he lands it, it would only be cherry on top for his career.

Such a thoughtful fan mate you are!!!

lmaooo i was thinking the same. remember we talked about this. but hey lets just pray it means he thinks he is okay

A really thought provoking question posed by Machida to help us look at quads correctly. It reminds me that every technique Yuzu does on the ice is delivered with a purpose.

"lacks passion" yet "too dramatic" "fakes injury" yet "he will be disabled in no time" and now "doesnt point his toe pick into direction x" what even i guess i shouldnt dive too deeply into what haters think or try to make sense of it --- shall have a planet streaming party?because its Cacti season again! which one are you? not sure if this is shared but his small face tops this list

I said this on twitter but thank you once again for this interview. Yuzu has had many antis who maliciously attacked Japanese public figures and ballerinas who openly praised Yuzu's artistic ability. To have a studio full of ballerinas tributing to him is very heartwarming for me. It is like an indirect defense for Yuzu.

We also need this in response to those antis

this is old but imagine Yuzu and Chiddy coaching together 😂😂😂

even when he didnt enter from a back counter entry, it still looked effortless.

thats what Yuzu get for saying his only rival is himself

Thats too much love that I need to give out you know. I have already given him 100% of my heart, imagine another Yuzu. and Yuzu wouldnt want himself to be cloned. He is selfish and hates #2

Yuzu and Hanyu?? Did you mean Yuzu and Habi? hehe

I think this thread is meant for it. But if you would like to start a new thread, go for it! I mean hey fanyus are crazy obsessive creatures who talk about scores and conspiracy theories all day, every day anyway. so why not

So I must confess I read all of the responses in this thread via my phone on a busy working day, so I misunderstood some points from your previous responses and I apologize for that. I appreciate that you clarified but please review your tone as it was not very nice. I also take it back that PCS and TES are entirely separate because I agree with @WinForPooh 's earlier comment about PCS having technical aspects to it. I missed her response and rereading it, I think I couldn't have explained it better. I still think there are skaters who could get high TES simply by executing their required elements well without committing to the rest of the program or contribute to the overall in betweens.

not to mention Stephen and Nathan have similar styles that even their costumes and music choices

dont forget certain skaters got positive goe for a hands down. that to me was the most outrageous. and some got postive goe when their jumps were underrotated

but the judges never really go by this rule all the time. they are selectively doing so only for certain skaters. so personally i think this rule should be get rid of altogether and in my opinion, the elements should only be graded on the grade of execution. why is it like we are in a violent agreement that PCS should not be scaled? its just that you dont see the significance of it while I do think thats a chance for judges to widen the scoring gap. First, i was not thinking about PCS rescaling. I was thinking judges should give Vincent 88 only if Yuzu starts at 120. and thats what I feel would be most impactful about raising the PCS to 130 and i also think thats what Mass is trying to say. And thats why I feel even so, in the hands of the judges, the situation could have be reversed because there is a high chance they will give Yuzu lower PCS than someone like Nathan. and thats why I believe raising the PCS is even more dangerous. now the reason you seem to think its pointless to raise the pcs is due to the rescaling method. and yes, i agree it makes less of a difference if all of them are rescaled. but still, the difference seems to be higher than how it would be without rescaling. so if yuzu were to get 95 while nathan a 96, when scaled it by 1.30, the difference would be even greater. Yuzu would get 123.5 pts while Nathan 124.8 pts. so while skaters are still capped at either 130 or 100, at least with the current 100 pt,the difference is less. And to me a couple points is still a couple of points more to consider. But i asked you if you prefer the +3 system, which wasnt scaled. and you said no? but you said you dont see the point of the new +5 GOE system. so what would you prefer then? if neither, what is your suggestion?

the break down of scoring seems right to me i think like having pcs and tes to balance out the artistic and athletic aspects of the sport. deduction for falls or violation. calls to punish incorrect tech. goe to reward or punish good or bad element..but the rulebook itself is flawed with subjective definitions. the judges and tech are corrupted. and yh i saw that. and i just wanna say it sounds as subjective as the rulebook sometimes

thats why I think everything is basically utilized with an agenda. If a skater who judges favor bomb so hard at an event, suddenly an underrotation or two would be looked past or the PCS would not be too dipped in order for them to at least get a pass or podium. It's all about the judges' performance. What is very good height? So how much height or distance is need in order to get a +5? is it 70cm or 60cm? is it 2.5 m or 3 m? What is effortless throughout? All of this is so subjective and not quantifiable enough. Thats why Japan came out with ice scope but even so what is the point of this when a backcounter 3a with the highest height and longest distance doesnt get unanimous +5? Shouldnt it get as much points as an average quad? oh btw the creative entry def anr step before a solo jump are taken out and you can guess their agenda I am actually thankful that we at least get to see the protocols because we get to see the extent of this corruption. yes, it might seem like we are powerless and even more helpless that we cant change the system. but actually, there are still people out there who try to analyze and look into it. some make videos to compare to raise awareness. imagine not having any protocol at all. I dont think i would even know why the scores are that way. sorry for keep quoting myself but i think thats also what i meant by saying its all about the agenda. this season suddenly nathan becomes a high 90s skater so even with less quads he won through PCS. and this is also where the new GOE system comes into play. it favors higher bv tech so as long as you dont have an obvious fall, you can cover the PCS gap with higher GOE, not just the bv. But of course, Nathan now has PCS so thats why he won with such a gap. thats why now a clean Yuzu cannot win with lower bv bc his pcs and goes are not even higher. And yes, the right skater with the right fed will receive a boost in PCS if they landed a 4t3aseq. not yuzu though

So do you mean technical elements can affect the PCS? I think the only thing it could affect is performance. Therefore, maybe the definition of performance in program components needs to be more defined since its one of the most subjective component in order to separate it from the TES. Because to me if a skater fall like Keegan Messing but stood up immediately and smile or not seem affected, it doesnt make sense to take away more from his performance. its the job of a deduction. i agree that if a skater falls and they started to look tentative in their performance like Kolyada then yes, you can take away pts from his performance. However, it is the role of GOE in evaluating these technical elements on their own. Having steps or transitions as an entry or exit in their technical element is part of showing how well they execute their elements, hence, they should be given higher GOE. a powerful 3ltz getting +5 goe should get more points than a poorly done quad that is underrotated or fall, which would get a negative goe and a deduction or downgrade. The problem we are seeing is often time underrotated quads are selectively not called in favor of certain skaters. GOES are given more generously to poorly done quads than nicely done triples for men, which widens the gap of overall points for quadsters from the rest. It's insane. Just to ask for clarification, do you mean you prefer the previous +3 system? In the old system, the bv point difference between each type of jumps are higher. i think like 2.5 difference for each quad. but the GOE is not contingent upon the bv. In the new system, since the GOE is contingent upon the bv, they close up the difference between each jump a little. However, the difference in points for each jump when given the same GOE is larger in the new system. I dont have a calc with me but for example, a quad toe given +3 GOE in the old system is lower than a quad toe given a +3-5 GOE in the new system. So as long as judges give the same high GOE for Nathan's Quad Ltz and Yuzu's Quad Loop, Nathan would win by TES alone even if he had lower PCS (not anymore). So in the past, a 6 quad nathan only gets around 4 quad nathan today since his GOEs were less. But with the new system, say if he was still getting 90 PCS in the new system, if judges all gave him +5 for all his TES for all his jumps, since his bv is higher, his differencr in GOE will cover the gap for PCS difference with Yuzu. The reason why he won by so much now at Worlds is because his PCS is also raised. Yeah and this is exactly what I believe. this will basically give an opportunity to raise Nathan's or Vincent's scores. at least we know now their PCS are almost capped.

i know TSL isnt reliable but i read this so I thought maybe its possible. thats true but as far as training goes, Brian has always been more exlusive at coaching Yuzu (along with Javi back then). nathan is doing virtual training with raf now so maybe Stephen could get more time getting coached by raf. and I think he left Brian last season because rumor has it that his parents wanted someone to coach him more exclusively. anyway sorry if this is being discussed in the wrong section. ill end it here! 🙏

I'm enjoying this offseason so much, the feeling of not having to get panic attack watching Yuzu compete or getting injured you dont even know! haha enjoy it while it lasts! but im totally down for the idea of having a streaming party! -- btw, --- TSL is saying Stephen Gogolev left TCC for Raf. Didnt he leave TCC for awhile now? Or did he just not get coached by Brian? If this is true, maybe bc Yuzu is looking to go to Beijing and he didnt want to not be coached as a gold contender for Beijing?

loll so would raf coach him to be beijing gold contender?

I have been wanting to start this thread to extensively discuss about the role of each aspect of the scoring like program component scores (PCS) and grade of execution points in figure skating and how they are being evaluated by ISU judges. One of the main reasons I want to have this discussion is because I have been seeing way too many people becoming used to the way that ISU judges have been scoring PCS based on the technical element scores (TES) that it actually has an effect on their own way of understanding the scoring system. I'm going to give a recent example like World Championships 2019. I have seen many people come to an agreement that Yuzu should have received much higher PCS than Nathan -- they think he should have received mid 9s while Nathan's mid 8s - but that Nathan would still have won. The reason is because Yuzu made a costly mistake in each the short and free while Nathan was clean in both programs. However, when I tried rescoring both of their performances based on how many people think the PCS should have been given (along with the GOES rescoring) the results would have been in favor of Yuzu and the placement would have been different. Therefore, I feel like there has been a misconception about how PCS should actually be evaluated. Or perhaps rather than there being a misconception, more so there is a normalization of how judges have been evaluating it that we, as viewers, can't really see the extent of how incorrect scoring of program components (and grade of execution points) could do to the placement. Now some could argue that Yuzu still received higher program components than Nathan albeit marginally with more mistakes, therefore, PCS are not contingent upon TES. However, if you follow the individual skater's track of scores like Yuzu, for example, you would find his PCS and TES are correlated. For example, Otonal received the highest PCS and TES at COR 18 (48.09|62.44), followed by Helsinki 18 (47.60|59.09) and then Worlds 19 (46.15|48.16). For Origin, he received the highest PCS and TES at Worlds 19(95.84|110.26), followed by Helsinki 18 (92.42|98.01) and then COR 18 (90.64|78.25). If you take some time to review other skaters' track of scores like Nathan Chen, Shoma Uno, Vincent Zhou, Evgenia Medvedeva, Alina Zagitova, Rika Kihira...etc. I'm sure you could find somewhat of a similar pattern. One of the biggest drivers behind the way PCS are evaluated is the reputation of the skaters. How is it that Vincent's PCS skyrocketed from the GP series to WTT with very similar performances and skating skills? It's because his underrotations began to get buried since Nationals. Then you have Rika getting higher PCS ever since she skated Beautiful Storm clean at NHK 18; she received 152 points at World 19 for a fall and 154 points for a perfect skate. I'm sure if she had skated Beautiful Storm clean once again at Worlds, she would have scored up to 160 points. I have not mentioned grade of execution points enough here but I would like to say the pattern is quite similar. In fact, I feel like program component scores are given the same role as grade of execution points. If grade of execution points are based on base values, program component scores are based on technical element scores. And both of these are also evaluated by taking into consideration the reputation of the skaters like how popular they are, how consistent they have been getting their elements done, how young the skaters are, what federation they have, their coaches' reputation, their track of record. However, even it's true that judges have been scoring program components based on technical element scores, their main agenda is to get the placement "right". Don't you feel like sometimes certain skaters are always given enough to win or taken enough to lose? There is always a way for judges and tech panalists to do enough performance on their end to give enough points to someone. Nathan getting higher PCS than Vincent at WTT. Evgenia scored higher than Elizaveta at Russian Final. So back to the example of Yuzu getting marginal PCS than Nathan at World Championship despite of the lower tech, was his PCS high enough for him to win? Could this be an attempt from the judges to dispel this idea that PCS = TES? But I genuinely believe that had Yuzu skated his programs clean, the judges would have given Nathan even higher program component scores. And I firmly believe that this is going to be what happened next season if Yuzu tries to up his base value. In fact, another way ISU could manipulate the results is through selective tech calls. Had underrotations/edge calls were given out correctly for all skaters, the placement could have changed drastically. So what do you guys think? Regardless of judges' agenda even if you agree or disagree with me, do you think PCS should be based on TES in any way? I believe there is a section in the rulebook that says you can't give 9s to a program with a fall. What about GOE under the new rule, aside from the fact that judges are giving them out incorrectly, do you agree that it should be contingent upon the base value of the element? Or what do you think the roles of TES, PCS, deductions, GOE points are, is it meant to be separately evaluated in order to balance out the artistic and athleticism aspects of this sport? To me I think other than giving more metrics to some definition and criteria in the rulebooks in order to make it more quantifiable, I actually agree with how the scoring are broken down. PCS should not be contingent upon TES, that's the role of GOE and deductions. The base value for each element seems fair, except certain jumps like a 4loop and 4axel should have been given higher base value. Max from ITA Eurosport once suggested that if TES could go as high as 130 points, PCS should also go as high as 130 points. However, in my own belief, I think it is not necessary to raise the PCS. GOE, tech calls, PCS, deductions are all there for a purpose. The only thing that needs to change is how the judges and tech panelists use them. Because if PCS is raised, it is just another oppotunity to incorrectly give out high PCS to undeserving skaters. Judges will only use that in favor of them.