makebelieveup

the only problem I have with this is we might need more help with contacting them/researching. But regardless, I'd support both!

Thank you so much everyone who responded so far. I really enjoyed reading all of them and I agree with many people. Just to be a bit more redundant by answering my own questions. I personally think Yuzu is a better skater than Plushenko not because the sport is progressing since many skaters now do jumps with a higher base value but don't necessarily jump them with the correct technique or execute them with the same quality as past skaters. On top of this, other aspects of their programs have been sacrificed due to this focus on the jumps. The sport isn't really advancing just because top skaters are breaking records. Was Zhenya better than Yuna when she broke her record? Is Alina the GOAT for having won everything at 16? To me, the answer is 'no'. The sport can only advance if what we're seeing reflect the achievements that are being given out. Likewise, the skater is only the GOAT if what they give out reflect what they've achieved. I think Yuzu is a better skater than Plushenko simply because he is a more complete skater in every area. If there is a skater who can do every aspect with better quality than Yuzu does, then I'd say he is the new GOAT even if he doesn't have an OGM. Because at this point, medals don't mean so much to me neither do scores if the system doesn't give them out correctly. This is actually something I really want to let non Yuzu fans/antis know, that I don't mind someone beating Yuzu, or even surpassing him as a skater. In fact, that's something to be celebrated because that would mean the sport is truly advancing. The reason why many fans were outraged with ISU when Yuzu lost isn't because he lost but how the unfair it all was. Looking back, Boston was probably a more depressing event for the fans but it was never something I felt bitter about because I thought the competition was somewhat fairer. I also agree with @Lambari that the term GOAT should be given out generationally. It can't and will never be definitive. I thought long and hard on how should this be defined and came up with a couple of criteria such as longevity (the amount of years a skater could podium), dominance (their margin of win/ceiling scores compared to others in a competition), accreditations (like titles/scores/records), impact (how many young skaters they inspire/how they push this sport technically and artistically), star quality (this is a bit subjective but i'm guessing their ability to bring in the crowds/audience), legacy (how many programs are remembered/ how much are they remembered by/what they would leave behind for the sport). We can look at this as GOE bullets. Some skaters can get 3, others 4, but they can't get all of this like Yuzu. In fact, the first three criteria could be gifted and not earned. I'm actually pretty encouraged to hear this. I don't have the heart to watch his NHK17 practice, so I didn't really know that all of his other jumps also didn't work out that day. I heard he was jetlagged. I think it's the same at Cor18. Hope he will learn from these experiences. I hope the 4Lz won't become a psychological issue for Yuzu. Maybe having injured by the 4Loop and gaining it back in one season might help Yuzu get back some confidence that he would be able to regain his 4Lz as well. If I remember correctly, he said something this season like he could probably get the 4Lz back if he practices a couple of months? Please let me know if anyone can confirm this/reference me the link. Thank you for praying for Yuzu. I also do the same every night. Yeah I think Yuzu is addicted to competing and winning, but if he could win the 3rd Olympic gold medal I hope he would feel complete. He once said PC was his midpoint and at that time he already felt happiness, so I trust that Beijing (if it happens) will be enough to close his competitive career. At the end of the day, he got what he could ever dream of getting and more through all of the effort he has put out (though what he deserved to have is even more than this). I think perhaps Yuzu will get withdrawal syndrome for a period, but seeing how talented and genius of a person he is, outside of competitive skating, he's capable of doing so many other interesting things. From what I've read, I don't think he would only focus on one thing, he's been a philanthropist, a producer, he did acting before, he's done music editing for his program, he coached younger skaters before, puts his voices into the making of his costumes and choreography...I'm sure he will find these things interesting at some point post-retirement.

We all know how dangerous a 4axel is, but to hear from an actual skater about its potential effect on the skater it is makes me terrified for Yuzu. I agree with Maxim that this sport shouldnt be made so that in order to defeat your opponent you have to break yourself in the process. Would Yuzu have felt the need to attempt the quad lutz if he weren't put in that position in 2017 or thinking he must gain all three new quads next season in order to stay competitive? I think thats what making me lose my initial enjoyment as the sport evolves. And I feel like there is always a disclaimer that needs to be made whenever I make this statement, that I am by no mean advocating for skaters to stop advancing themselves. However, advancing does not only mean to focus on one area among their technical arsenal -- the jumps. In fact, even so, the quality of these jumps have been affected due to the eagerness to achieve them in a short amount of time because what is happening is everyone is trying to beat each other that there is not enough time for thr trial and error process (esp if you are older), hence, decreasing the amount of time to put in the effort to refine these jumps. When quantity is rewarded over quality, there is no incentive to stop, take a step back and evaluate what needs to be improved. I have only seen a few skaters who took their time to do this and Yuzu being one of the primary examples. Or someone like Korstonaia is admirable because she really works on every area and hasnt pushed herself to do a 3a in comp because it hasnt worked out for her. I would like to see skaters work on their step sequence, flow, quality of the spins or jumps, and just look more 'ready' going into a competition knowing those blades are waiting for them, you know. and since I guess all of this has been touched on to death, I just kinda want to bring up these following discussional questions. Plushenko once said Yuzu is a better skater than he is because the sport is an evolving sport -- people will progress. But what do you guys think? Will obtaining a Quad Lutz or Quad Axel makes Yuzu/a skater in general better? And there was a comment I read a couple days ago on The FreeSkate video about Hanyu vs Chen at Worlds and one of the persons commented along the lines of how the term GOAT is funny because its only referring up until this time. So if someone can beat Yuzu in the future they can be the GOAT as well. Of course its difficult to compare skaters from different eras, but I really think people have greatly misunderstood why many people think Yuzu is the GOAT of the sport and not just because he is the 2x OGM. I really want to hear from you guys and know what this GOAT thing really means, so maybe we need to cover our argument better than just bringing up his gold medals as the first argument ground. 1. Are athletes in sport/figure skating always progressing? 2. What makes a skater the GOAT? Does this term truly mean much since its accounting the future/unknown.

It seems like everyone likes the format you have!

hey guys, following up on this poll. It seems like the Playground is winning. Should we have a due date to determine the winner?

Max retires!!! this is why I love people name Max LOL I should name my child Max so he could grow up smart

hahah I truly think that's a Japanese way of cutting men's hairstyles but I can't confirm. I've only seen a lot of Japanese men with that kind of hairstyle and even in Anime. the sideburns are always pretty long

Its just pretty frustrating to know how commentators who are skaters themselves incorrectly judge jumps i.e. Johnny and Tara also said that about Vincent at SA. I genuinely wonder if it is intentional. Maybe I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are just trying to be nice or do their job? I mean I would like to just think this is a harmless mistake but imagine how many people could buy into it when it is being broadcasted nationally or even internationally. and to think I used to rely on the commentators back when I first started watching figure skating, this is pretty sad

@micaelis im soo glad you are back and okay. We all missed you dearly. I prayed for you and I am so glad it has been answered. and as always, well said!

I'm not that fond of Kurt as a commentator. He has strong opinions and tends to like only a certain style on a skater. No wonder he always emphasizes that Yuzu has the rockstar feel whenever Yuzu does a fun and upbeat program because thats all he cares about. And that really translates how he also is as a choreographer. HILY is one of those ex I dont really watch more than twice, even tho Yuzu could pull off due to his performance ability and natural charisma. But there was a short fb livestream during the grandprix series this season from CBC and iirc Kurt was answering one of the questions regarding how Yuzu often does similar programs. Then he was sharing how he used to choreograph for Yuzu and he asked Yuzu to find a jean to stick his hands in his pockets but Yuzu was too skinny...and something along the lines of Yuzu being interesting. Idk maybe I am not getting his remarks but it sounded like Yuzu couldnt pull off what Kurt intended for the program. I just don't really want Yuzu to collab with him. I still think Shae and Jeff have been the best choreographers for Yuzu throughout his entire career and if they havent flopped at anything drastically, I'd say keep them. Yuzu seems to trust his team a lot be it with TCC or his own medical team from Japan. I feel like he works well with them and they know the kind of skater he is so they respect his opinions. I feel like at this point, they give him a draft and then he goes and gives his opinions and they proofread it to fit his vision. Then through each competition, they work together to master it. That is the kind of team I think would work for Yuzu. Imagine Yuzu getting Danil as his choreographer lol and a lot of choreographers like DW and Kurt are pretty opinionated. and if Yuzu were to keep Shae and Jeff, I hope he would keep them until Beijing. There is no more room for Yuzu to experiment at this point since he is already focusing on upping the tech. Dont be like Zhenya of this season and tried so many new things and lost consistency. Of course the problem with Zhenya's consistency went beyond this but I just dont want it to happen to Yuzu. But if Yuzu ever thought of changing choreographer, do it next season so he gets a couple of seasons to adapt. I know Yuzu is an adapter but I just think that it might give off an impression that this season didnt work out for him and he is desperately looking for innovation, when in fact, really if he didnt injure himself or lost Worlds due to a lot bad judging, we wouldnt have thought of this option. If he chooses to experiment with new choreographers, I would like him to go back to the ones who did RJ 1.0. I think Nanami Abe,Natalia Bestemianova,Igor Bobrin. I really thought they did a great job with this program eventho it wasnt super technically brilliant back then. Or try Tom Dickson who did a really good job with Beautiful Storm. I think his style would suit Yuzu's.

someone suggested this and I thought it would be a perfect program for yuzu. And you know there is actually a famous Hong Kong movie with the same name starred Tony Leung. I wouldnt mind if Yuzu pulls a Tony for his costume

Zhenya is doing it next season! lol

oh okay i thought I missed something. but thats also the reason I dropped nbc

I thought Johnny's reaction to Otonal was great or did you mean what he commented on Nathan's after US nationals?

I'm not sure what you mean there. But I thought it was not only technically brilliant but also musically brilliant. His movements matched every single beat and the rising and falling of the notes. By airier, do you mean he was too light on his steps? If so, I simply thought it perfectly matched the overrall temperament of the program. But thats just my take of his skating at that point. I feel like the step sequence for Chopin and music at that part fit to present the weighed down quality better. Oh also I never watched Johnny's Otonal more than once so I couldnt compare and probably will choose not to. This tbh. But then when I read what he said before Worlds, I feel like since then he was skating it from a place for himself. regardless, theyre still tributes so I think lets leave them behind if possible

I thought a lot of people preferred it to Origin? I like both but the interpretation and step sequence were better, imo. I personally want him to ditch both but if it has to be one then Origin since it hasnt been clean yet. Otonal was almost clean.

Nah I doubt anyone can ever do anything better than when he does it. I personally want him to ditch most of his signature moves because I want to see different things from him and I am sure his team and he are capable of this. If we were to compare his programs with the rest then well he could just pretty much walk on the rink and still be more interesting to watch lol I just want to see the Y spins and more spirals but idk its not even about what the judges will think bc they will see what they want to see anyways. I dont know how much longer Yuzu will compete so I wanna see something new ----- Guess new programs! He probably will keep both or at least Origin and up the tech. what I want tho sp: something fun and upbeat. can never go wrong with this. or something cool like Mission Impossible fp: a piece from Joe Hisaishi pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah sadly a lot of female chinese celebrities have looked really similar to one another due to this uniform standard of beauty. They all, and I mean almost all, wear double eyelid tapes. I guess this is also commom in Vietnam and Thailand from what I have seen. The idea is your eyes need to be as sharp as they can for broadcasting purposes. So even those who already have double eyelids, they would still put on eyelid tape to make their eyes more lifted and defined. I wear double eyelid tapes myself but I do think some of them look better without it. I am so sorry to hear what they said about you. That was definitely bizarre. I think China just cares a lot more about visual beauty than N.A. Not that N.A. doesn't but not particularly. With Chinese people, you can see there are a lot more flower vases in the entertainment industry. So to have someone who is as talented as Yuzu but also good looking is a rare gem that only comes once in a thousand years. Also, since they already have a lot of OGM in their own country, it's like they are seeking for the other it factors. But I also think one of the reasons I could rationalize why Yuzu is even bigger than Boyang, or Patrick, Nathan, or Vincent (who are all ethnically chinese) is just due to timing. Figure Skating isnt a high profile sport and so especially at Patrick's time, people just werent as interested as they are now. While he is ethnically Chinese, he was not representing China and thus there was just not that many topics to cover about him. I wouldnt think they see him as their own hero since there was no real prize in his achievements for them. So at that time China really doesnt have anyone in the mens single who represents them to support. Yuzu came along and won Sochi. China, while has a huge political tension with Japan for years, is generally receptive of Japanese culture. In fact, I think there is a deeper curiosity for foreign athlete/star. Just like how Japan is very welcoming toward Russian skaters like Evgenia and Alina and American skater like Nathan Chen (though one can argue its just Japan's culture) . At least if it is not a mainstream topic, people are willing to acknowledge Japanese celebrities, beauty, culture...etc. So Yuzu, who looks extremely good looking by their standard, and has incredible talent at such a young age easily became a phenomenon. So when Boyang emerged on the scene, I think Yuzu already has a big fanbase. Not to mention Yuzu has had more achievements than Boyang, so there isnt really a reason why Boyang would become bigger. Also, these fans of figure skating in China are mostly grown through Yuzu's winning the Olympic at Sochi. If Boyang had won PC, maybe he might have a chance to rival Yuzu's popularity but he didnt. Figure Skating has become bigger in S.K. after Yuna won the Olympic. She is their national treasure. I think to stan Yuzu or Mao is probably like committing treason. Mao was a rival at Yuna's time but Yuzu is a bigger rival for any era because he won 2 OGMs. Like Yuna, Yuzu is Japan's national hero. It's a more apple to apple comparison but Yuzu is active and has more achievements and international followers. He is like the counterpart of Yuna that Korea would have loved to have. In my native language there is a saying that roughly translates as "If you can't eat the grapes, you say they are sour." So I think Yuzu is a bigger threat to Korea than he is to China. They can't have him so they won't acknowledge him. I know he still has a fanbase in Korea though. I think Yuzu just does not fit in the general American beauty standard. The boyband thing like One Direction was popular for their good looks at first but they quickly grew out of their heartthrob image as they age. America doesnt seem to have as much of an appreciation for a clean, nice looking guy image as much as Asia does. They like to promote their stars to have individuality, uniqueness, talent. Ruggedness/ sex appeal in men while the pubescent looks only work when you are teenagers. So as a star, Yuzu might still considered a looking like a noodly teenager or at the most a boyish heartthrob for his age, which is boring and lacking the ruggedness/sex appeal they prefer to see. Since he is so popular though, they tend to talk about his phenomenon almost as if it is unthink of. Sorta like they wonder themselves why, other than his talent, would appeal THAT much to fangirls so sometimes they kinda mock it in a sarcastic way in comparison to other big N.A. skaters. When I say they I mean N.A. media. Hollywood tends to choose Asian Americans who fit their beauty standards for their own production. Tan skinned, muscular, rugged, flashing white teeth...etc. It's kinda like most Americans/europeans (those who actually have a line) casted in a Chinese drama are fair skinned and slender. I am actually wondering whether Nathan or Vincent, too, would become bigger in China than even Boyang. I think their potential achievements, if Chinese fans choose to ignore the inflation, would actually create buzz. I've already seen Chinese judges scored Nathan above Yuzu on several occassions..Surely his ethnicity has to do with it. I wonder if it translates for the fans. As far as looks go, I would say Vincent fits their looks a bit more but I am not sure if they appeal enough to the public to bandwagon. Can anyone tell me how popular Nathan and Vincent are in China? your brother sounds really goodlooking! sorry, I hope I dont sound creepy I remember that Chinese show where the host was raving about Yuzu. They mentioned that he isn't just good looking but also smart and hardworking. He even know about Yuzu's university. #whenwillUSmedia and the 4CC gala. That was fun and interesting to watch. Shoma was pushed over for Yuzu by a bunch of flower girls. It was pretty rude and silly, to be honest. Their reactions were like they got to meet their kpop idols at a fanmeeting and Yuzu was basically mobbed. From what I have heard, Yuzu's attitude toward winning and his competitiveness seem to be some of the reasons. Japan values modesty and wants to keep an attitude of zenlike. Even if they want you to win and support their athlete to be competitive, they don't like hearing "I want to win." "I will win." "winning is everything." but more so "I will try my best. But if I don't win it is okay. I did my best." That's why I think Shoma or Dai's attitude or statement toward competiting is what Japan would like to represent through their athletes. But Yuzu isn't like that and he does not want to be. He explicitly stated in his press conference after PC that the attitude of going into a competition with a smile isn't for him. And he KNOWS he is often criticized for it. Oh well I am just glad Yuzu isnt your typical Japanese anyway. Not sure if it was because he moved abroad at a young age or not, but I always feel like he adapted some of the N.A. traits like the transparency toward one own's feelings, the physical interaction/social skills, and the individualism. He has the best virtues of both worlds.

I like the playground just because the Ice Rink is already funded by Yuzu. But either way is fine. I also agree we should make it known it is inspired by Yuzu without trying to come off boastful or as a burden for him.

April 20!!! look forward to it

I agree with the marks there. While both have single eyelids, Yuzu's eyes are large and long with defined shapes. Boyang's eyes are typical and small. Yuzu has relatively more dimension in his facial structures and a heartshaped faceshape while Boyang's facial structures are more flat. Boyang's face shape is also rounder and chubbier. While both have straight noses, Boyang's nose is slightly downward pointed and his nostrils are a bit wider, giving me an impression of a hooked nose. Yuzu has straighter teeth and a more beautiful smile, a golden facial proportion, and delicate, refined features overall. I think China would actually agree Yuzu is the more good looking athlete while Boyang is rather average. But I think it is understandable for western people to not be able to distinguish facial anatomy as much as asian people tend to do. Many asian people I know, like myself, love to dissect a person's visual because this is one of the most common topic of discussions we see in celebrity news. Also, I think as a westerner @old cat lady was trying to ask for opinions from the eyes of asians. It's fair to say many Asians would also not be able to distinguish between what makes a celebrity attractive in American pop culture just by looking at a couple of different people.

Just want to touch on the topic of beauty standard in Asia a little. I think the conventional beauty standard across many parts of Asia are big and double eyelids, small face with pointed chin, small and flat forehead, tall straight nose, and most importantly fair skin. But even so, these standards still vary from country to country and from era to era. The standard I mentioned above is what's commonly perceived as classic beauty standard. It means that if you have these features you are sorta universally regarded as beautiful. However, as south Korea pretty much sets the trend for beauty standards over time, the concept of beauty becomes more trendy. For example, there was a period when oval face shape, aeygo sal eyes, small cherry lips were very popular. Then there was a period when V-line and "joker lips" were the most beautiful things out there...etc. This isnt to say that any of these features are no longer considered beauty. but it goes to show how beauty standards can change over time in Asia. I think to vary from these some of these features is totally fine as long as your features harmoniously blend together. In fact, to have one or two distinctive features add to a person's uniqueness. Even among the three popular east asian countries like China, Japan, and South Korea, there are varied preferences in beauty standard. I think it is fair to say Yuzu is universally good looking man by today's current beauty across these countries and other southeast asia countries. His androgynous looks are more accepted now to viewers who have been exposed to kpop. His non double eyelids are actually perceived as beautiful since his eyeshapes are long, distinctive, and large and not to mention those crescent like eyes when he smiles, which is still a thing asian people love. I think had he been Korean, Korea would have praised his looks to the high heavens. His looks fit korean standard down to a T. Due to political reasons I think they sorta deny it. But at least I know his looks are acknowledged by Chinese and Japanese.

Yeah are you able to edit the first post and add a poll? We can advertise it in the yuzu thread? Make it 2 days? What do you think?

@Veveco awesome! Thanks for putting together this post! I also agree with everyone else that it might be better that this book project is planethanyu based. From past experiences, I think when a project gets too large it is very hard to organize. However, the donation project can be organized by Planet but advertised to a wider audience like twitter and tumblr. I think we can come up with a duration where we can all donate at the same period. Of course anyone can donate at their own discretion after that, but having a set time where we all donate will appear more community driven and thus, promote more participations. Back to the book project I like the idea of assembling the quotes from public figures for Yuzu, especially from those who mean a lot to him. I have a lot of them and I think we can also put translations of commentaries for Yuzu. I am not sure if he watches all of his own performances in different commentaries so maybe we can do this? I am not the most organized person but I can help with whoever is taking the lead on section. @4Nessie Should we have a poll to vote for either playground or ice rink? It seems like we have not been able to decide on this. I think it makes sense to donate to the playground since like someone already mentioned that the ice rink already has a good amount of donation from Yuzu himself. But if we can decide on this now through a poll it would be more clear cut. @Veveco we all love your ideas! Since you are taking the lead on this, would you mind maybe lay out the possible steps? I see that you already did in your summary but maybe a step by step plan can help us know exactly where to get started? Also, should we have a timeline and deadline for each task? We can also direct message our members to see if they agree on handling each assignment i.e. @kaeryth and me can organize the quotes/commentaries. We can delegate to members who are willing so that no one is doing everything