shanshani

Did he not perform HYK at Worlds? Also 4CC is in Seoul this season You're thinking of last season, when it was in Anaheim

Jnats (remember that competition and how Yuzu is technically supposed to attend it ?) or 4CC would be my guess. Presumably he'd want to skate cleanly at GPF to beat Nathan/prevent Nate's scores from getting more inflated. Although if he did manage to land it, it would be a pretty big flex, haha. “Who's the quad king now?” A few months can be a lot. But who knows, maybe you're right, I suppose it did kind of look like Yuzu wanted to attempt 4A in ACI practice as well. It can't be in that bad of shape if he had any intention of doing that. Plus, by the time NHK rolls around it'll have been over two months since ACI. But this convo is giving me whiplash. One person is saying, no upgrade. Another is saying 4A

He might not need the 4Lz to win at NHK, but he does need to practice jumping it in competition if he wants to add it at some point. He also jumped it at ACI practice, remember? So minimizing risk doesn't mean he's going to avoid it until absolutely necessary. Nathan's team is almost certainly going to proceed under the assumption that Yuzu will add it before the end of the season, so I'm not sure there's much point in lulling everyone into thinking there won't be a 4Lz. He might decide to jump 4Lz instead of 4Lo rather than going up to 5 quads though. I'm not convinced 4A is in a condition to be debuted yet. The most recent information says he's rotating it but not landing it (at all? at some kind of minimally acceptable rate? it's unclear), and while that might have changed and/or been an attempt to lower expectations, we definitely know he's landed a 4Lz recently.

Had a random thought. Does anyone else think he's going to re-debut the 4Lz at NHK? You know, to get revenge on it? It would make sense, especially now that he's skated his current layout nearly clean.

not to mention if the only people who competed were medal contenders, then the events would be real short. plus, in the case of a lot of lower ranking skaters, especially from small feds, their competitive experience is really important for building the sport in their home countries. through competitions, they acquire knowledge and contacts, and can generate interest in the sport back home. so even if, say, Julian Zhi Jie Yee, is not a serious medal contender in most competitions, his presence on the international competitive scene is a huge boon for Malaysian figure skating. honestly, those people are just irrational haters and not really worth engaging with. it's best just to ignore or point and laugh at them, the way you would someone who goes around claiming the earth is flat.

I mean TSL have straight up said/done scummy things. That goes far beyond complaining about Yuzu’s scores or whatever.

Yes. It could have these segments: Yuzu updates Competition review Random topic of interest (eg. Judging bias, gender norms and figure skating, how spins are leveled, whatever technical, cultural, or scoring related issue suits our fancy)

I’m not really sure why people listen to these podcasts/shows either. I guess I never saw the appeal. I still think we should make our own though. Who’s down?

Yeah, the extent to which Yuzu benefits from reputation bias is no more than someone like Nathan benefits. You could argue that his GOE was too high for the SP combo (and I would agree), but that’s pretty much par for the course for the top skaters. All of them get deducted less for bad landings. Not to mention, there’s that gif comparing Yuzu and Nate’s identical turn out errors, where Yuzu is -0.15 and Nate is +0.84.

I think people are worried because at the end of the day it’s just too judge-dependent, and no one trusts the judges. Plus Nate will probably add difficulty by Worlds. It also leaves little margin of error for Yuzu, and Yuzu’s not often squeaky clean. I do think that assuming the judges score like they did at Worlds for Nathan and Yuzu at SCI, Yuzu has an edge as long as the BV gap doesn’t grow too much. There were lots of little areas where Yuzu could have earned more points. 3-4 points on the 4Lo, 1 pt on the Sal, 1-2 points each on the SP combo and the axel combos. Presumably the level of interpretation of the Origin program could go up too and squeeze a point or two more out of PCS (I wasn’t blown away by it, and Yuzu says it’s only 20-30% of what he envisions. It’s a pity those 70-80% are only worth 2 points). Big assumption though.

I’m not sure this is entirely true, the 4S wasn’t 100% stable on the landing, so it’s fair for it to be graded a little lower than his best 4S’s (well, at least if we don’t take other skaters’ inflated GOEs into account). At least, I wouldn’t have given it a 5 either. 3As, well, idk about that, maybe your theory is right there. I do think there’s an effect that when the judges get “excited” they start throwing GOEs out like candy. That’s stupid, if true re: ISU officers. Lots of sports have a “fall and still win” thing going on—gymnastics, ski jumping, whatever, it’s not that hard to explain. Also, while casual viewers may not be able to explain in technical terms why they like a certain skater’s skating better than others, a skater’s SS still has a huge impact on the impression a viewer gets of a skate. No one is able to skate a gorgeous program without solid SS, SS is the foundation of artistry. And while I think headlines about Sasha might get more clicks, complete skaters are what get people to actually follow the sport. Anyway, this is getting a little far from men’s skating. To bring it back on topic, it’ll be interesting to see what Shoma gets at IdF. I would like to see Nate’s PCS scores go down to reasonable levels that actually reflect his skating and Shoma outscore Nathan in PCS (though obviously not on TES, assuming a similar level of cleanliness), but that’s unlikely to happen. I think Shoma is really suffering from judges becoming unfriendly towards him because of his lackluster results recently. Not that I really liked his scores that much before either (too much GOE), but if clean him and Nate should be more evenly matched than the judging will inevitably suggest.

While we can’t guarantee that Yuzu will continue to receive the kind of judging he received at Skate Canada, surely this should be adjusted upward now? After all, he got 322 despite having a wonky 4T3T in the SP, bad landing on 4Lo in the FS, and then weak landings on the 3A combos too. The Sal in the FS could have been a bit better as well, it wasn’t quite as nicely landed as his best, it could have gotten an extra point too. Nate will probably upgrade by Worlds, though idk what will happen at GPF. Ultimately, I think it’s just going to come down to who lands their jumps. If both are clean, well, who knows. I think Yuzu knows a tech upgrade is pretty much going to have to happen because of the way the judging works now. Plus, he does want to land the 4A anyway. It’s true that things were different during the Sochi quad. Patrick Chan’s PCS would save him even if he flopped all over the place. It doesn’t work that way now. Despite Patrick’s remarkable SS he would probably only be a couple points above his competitors in PCS if he were still competing and at the top of his game (of course, when he fell behind his PCS dropped.) While it’s a good thing that we’re no longer in a situation where PCS can save a disaster skate, it’s gone way too far in the other direction. Now the difference between top competitors’ PCS is the difference between a single high quality and so-so quad (which is of course ridiculous). Anyway, imagine being a competitor in this situation, especially someone who’s been in the sport for as long as Yuzu. The rules have changed beneath his feet, and without any sort of official declaration, unlike the changes to the scoring system post-Pyeongchang. Maybe in a few years the judging trends will change again, and we’ll go back to rewarding quality SS and TR. Of course it’s confusing, because the rules say one thing but the actual judging says another. The rules say high scoring programs need lots of difficult transitions, that SS is judged by x y z qualities, etc. etc., but the way the judges actually judge has little relation to those rules, and instead has more to do with whatever judges collectively decide to be extra impressed with this year. For the past few seasons, that’s been big jumps. Before, it was SS and TR. The terrible judging isn’t just unfair, it’s actively confusing to competitors and coaches. The rules tell you to do one thing, but the scores tell you to do something else. Do you listen to the rules or the scores? What if the scores change on you? The ISU computer model definition thing shows a lutz jump as a jump with a deep inside edge, taken off from a clean toe-pick with minimal PR, but the scores show that you’re way better off jumping a lutz with a shallow outside edge, blade assistance and 180 degrees PR. If you’re a coach, do you teach the one or the other? If you go with the clean toe-pick, you are might future-proof your students in case the ISU ever starts deciding to call PR, but in the meanwhile they are having lower success rates on the jump than the people who go with the PR technique and have a way harder time ever achieving quad lutz. If you go with the PR technique, your students might get away with it now, but one day perhaps tech panels will start coming after them.

just realizing now that my wish was granted with the sponichi interview, lol. thanks Yuzu!

teach meeeeeee I need to do some squats lol

maybe we should start calling him *~*Mushy*~*. It would brighten my day

it's the season of MAXIMUM RECYCLING. it's just Yuzu's way of supporting the effort to combat global warming

Yuzu performs 2015 NHK Seimei with the full original jump layout. Squeaky clean. Breaks world record despite it being an EX. ISU shook, immediately makes him president.

so dumb. both should be negative because of bad air position leading to obvious landing error, but Yuzu's should be higher because of harder entry and exit and less prep time. it's as though Yuzu deliberately made the same mistake to show the difference in scoring. I mean obviously he didn't but it's an informative coincidence

It's making the rounds on Chinese fan forums. I wonder if, since Beijing is hosting Olys, if they might actually be able to lean on the ISU to clean up its act when it comes to scoring before 2022. Of course, it's not just Yuzu, the scoring is completely nonsensical up and down the rankings. Who in their right mind thinks Sasha Trusova has better skating skills than Marin Honda? Compare a bunch of programs that get 8s and you'll find a ridiculously wide range of actual component skills being displayed. The judges score earlier skaters' GOEs as though they only have a limited number of points to give out and have to save them for the final skaters. It's absurd. The Olympic committee might be the only organization with the power to force the ISU change.

lol just imagine "Sorry, I know you're our two time and reigning Olympic champion and best skater, but you didn't do x and y competition so you don't qualify to compete."

Regarding the media narrative stuff, I don't think it's that complicated or conspiratorial. Does US media want Nathan to win? Yes. That biases their coverage. But I think the turn around on Yuzu is just horse-race/interest generating stuff. There's no larger design other than generating clicks. Plus, like I said elsewhere, the “discourse” overreacts to the most recent event. Like with Nathan winning Worlds, yeah against an injured Yuzuru Hanyu. It wasn't as decisive a victory, nor was Nathan as unbeatable, as the narrative suggested. I'm not trying to take Nathan's win away from him, a win is a win, and Yuzu set a high enough bar that it certainly couldn't have been easy to clear it, but with his injuries, Yuzu could not perform to the maximum of his potential. As we see by the scores at SCI, Yuzu could, in fact, have beaten him if he had been in top condition and skated squeaky clean. Another example, during the early season up until US nationals, it was Yuzu most people thought was unbeatable, injuries aside. I'm not convinced PR is a problem from an injury-causing standpoint either. I think there's some wishful thinking from fans here. Textbook lutzes are more beautiful, but I'm not really sure they're safer. They're certainly harder to land, which increases risk. Anyway, I hope the ISU is starting to realize they really need to fix judging. Increased technical difficulty is interesting, I guess, but people fall in love with the sport because of complete skaters like Yuzu. But it isn't worth being such a skater if there's no reward for it. It's clearly more effective to be a Sasha Trusova instead. So the ISU is literally reducing its pipeline of future stars if they don't get a handle on this problem. I think that's another thing Yuzu is thinking about, the impact of his skating on younger skaters. Because on the one hand, he clearly does want skaters to follow in his footsteps, and that's why he wanted to prove that you could get high scores even if you weren't maxed out on technical difficulty. But on the other hand, he probably also realizes that skaters who follow in his footsteps might be hurting their own careers, because they're making life difficult for themselves by doing things that go unrewarded when they could be training big jumps and simplifying the program so that they land those big jumps instead. And that probably bothers him.

tbh you want to make your quads as small as possible to reduce risk, wear-and-tear, and make them easier to land. I mean, it's kind of obvious that bigger jumps are harder to land, isn't it? the incentive for jumping big is just way too small (like, maybe you get an extra GOE point. Maybe. that's nothing compared to an increased chance of actually landing the jump). one of the many ways the incentive structure of the sport is screwed up.

lol it does sound way more sarcastic in Chinese. and yeah Lily's translation is probably better. alas, less tea, but acknowledging the reality that jumping a 4Lz with no PR is miles away from jumping a 4Lz with heavy PR.

do you have a link?

thank you! that makes sense This actually makes me feel slightly nauseous. The whole reason Yuzu is so magical is that he doesn't compromise on anything. The idea that he felt like he had to get rid of his transitions to win because judging is incompetent and doesn't reward it is just horrible. It would have deprived of us some of the most beautiful programs ever and clearly would have made him unhappy.