Xen

This is where it pains me to say stuff about Shoma's jumps. Because I do not think he's a weak jumper (you really can't if you want to do quads). In slow mo, there are times when his 4F appears right at 180, but then there are slow mo where his toe has pivoted beyond the 180 (closer to a 4, or 3 o'clock position). He almost never takes off from 90 degrees, it's almost always a minimum of 150 pivot on his right toe and then press up for the 4F. Think he stretches 180 degrees allowed to the max. Speaking of which, for the ones who did attend Helsinki, in real time who had greater height, Nate or Shoma?

I'll take Uncle Kurt's word over Jackie's. 1) Jackie is correct that there is no forward toe tap. But seriously though, that's not the issue with pre-rotated jumps. NO freakin' jump is taught to take off with a forward toe tap (picking is the correct term). The pre-rotation is all about the pivoting off the picking toe for toe jumps. And turning and jumping off a 3 turn for edge jumps, where your toe pick is the last part to leave the ice. 2) There are jumps that have pre-rotation built into them, somewhere between 90-180 degrees. These jumps are the toe loop, loop and the salchow. It is considered correct technique. For reference, I offer the following: Toe Loop: https://youtu.be/emXR9rVtISE Salchow: https://youtu.be/wCId9mVFJw8 Loop:https://youtu.be/t4dz1jp1Eq0 However, the flip and the Lutz are different beasts. The flip does have a loop like section built into the jump, but that little section is based off a back pivot, however you don't usually need to really do a full loop to launch. There was a time when weaker jumpers were in fact taught to jump off a loop for a flip, however that's changed and considered poor technique that must be fixed. For reference, these videos might help: How to do a flip: https://youtu.be/CnVqI_c7Lrs Tom Z's lessons for Lutz and Flip: https://youtu.be/lSiFTO1e5Ls?list=PL9hcBiuqNVftTabS2pbS-VTTkdG1GanJi Now, flip jumps do have a bit of a pivot to them, so if you want to give some skates the benefit of the doubt on a flip, I can understand. However, that does not apply to the lutz, and that is where leniency is a problem. A lutz is hard not just because it's a counter rotation, but it is the one jump that has so little pivoting allowed, it is the jump that is closest to a full rotation in the air. Can lutz jumps be pre-rotated, well yes, they can now. The pre-rotation again, is not due to the toe tap (picking) being forward, it's staying on the (right) toe pick for a very long duration, and allowing a very long pivot on that toe, so you essentially take off in a loop position (that is more forward). Now, I can forgive judges a bit on GOEs and PCS (except where flagerant), but tech panel should, in my opinion, be stricter. If this were a 100 meter race, the tech panel essentially makes sure that all the guys are starting on the same line and everyone is really running 100 meters, not 90 meters for 1 guy, 110 for another etc. So yeah, ISU get it right please. I don't think it will really detract from the glory and excitement that is figure skating, because there are guys and gals who have such good technique they can still crack those points barriers. And that they are the ones who should be looked upon as role models. Now if they don't call clearly, they're just muddling the waters, and making the politiking a bit too obvious. Disclaimer: I'm not adding axels because they are very different from the other jumps, and there is about a quarter turn on the ice before the skater fully launches up. I also think it's more encouraging for skaters from other feds if they truly know that their cleaner technique is acknowledged, especially if skaters from stronger feds are not being called on wrong technique. It's stupid to really think skaters themselves do not know who is cheating and who is not.

There is no way to tap forward on a toe jump. Technically it's also called picking the ice. But anyways, Uncle Kurt already called out the prerotation on tv during wc, wish more twitter commentators would listen to him.....

He looks like he's trying to poke himself mid-spin....Yuzu, poking your ribcage while spinning is very very dangerous. His angry face is why I don't look at his face when he jumps....the legs are much more elegantly crossed.

Chanflation: Patrick Chan scores deflation. 4 CC 2017 gave us a brand new definition.

Thank gods for Javi eh? The only guy chill enough to prevent total hair loss by Brian/ aka why Brian still has hair.

4Lz and 4F are things of beauty when done right. They should be the jumps with the greatest height and distance. I normally can't directly feel my jump's height or distance, but I recall the first time I did a flip correctly I was estatic. Not just because I did a flip OMG, but because I could feel the height I got. It felt like flying.

More than just the distance and height, lightness etc, you can tell they love those jumps. As hard as quads are, it's amazing that a guy can love such a troublesome and difficult jump. When they land their quads you can tell on their faces a feeling of "Did you guys ever doubt against me?" So steady, so reliable.

I would like to offer my services as the security guard for all your harems. Other than blades, I also come with fencing swords, the ability to hold my composure even against Neko-Yuzuru levels of moe, and very low blood pressure which allows me to hold steady when helping you take photos, record programs and bring smelling salts when needed. I'm also tiny so I do not get in the way. Guilliame and Poje...hmm they could give Yuzu a run for the money.

Question, how did we go from "Teach me Hanyu Sensei!!" to "Olala, I want Guillame and Andrew Poje and Adam Rippon in my Harem!" Really? To the degree we need to add an off topic disclaimer for a video? I'm laughing like mad here....

Well I'm an older sister age to these boys, so I can only be the security guard outside of your harems.

Just the top 6 without quads factoring in: 1) Yuzu 2) Boyang/Javi--> tied, really 3) Patrick 4) Shoma 5) Nathan There.....

Not sure if this is the right thread, so please correct me if I post this wrongly, mods! I'm very very very super super super curious about this. For the next oly cycle, if we take Yuzu and Shoma out of the equation, who does everyone think is the next big guy to come out of the Japanese Men's?

...I might have a tie for no 2....

I'm still not sure if reporting her was the best idea, it's a bit extreme IMO. But the part that makes me scratch my head in awe and wonder is how some Japanese media this cycle can be somewhat devisive even over their own men. You'd think Japan only had 1 slot, and the oly competition was just between these 2 guys... Speaking of which, what is japane going to do after 2018? Who's coming up the men's ranks? Why divide your team now?

It is a blackhole.....I also guess he's more conscientious than he appears.

I would love to be able to post photos my rinkmates took of Boyang when he performed here, but I assure you, Boyang is very pretty, with near Yuzu level of perfect skin. He's got very delicate features and has a more soft young look in real life. Also extremely nice and accomodating to fans.

No, I would not consider the possibility of tech panel calling cheated technique. That ship has long sailed away. What I'm arguing is that this season, if both add it, then the 4 Lz could be put under more scrutiny than before, similar to how ladies and the huge number of 3Lzs were scrutinized for edge and UR right after the COP system got stable. If everyone is doing the same thing, then cleasiness plays a bigger role in the points. So no cheats called, but maybe more edge calls, unclear edges called and URs called. Amongst the top men, any one of those might be why you are on or off the podium this season. With just Boyang and Nate alone, 4 Lz had some novelty. This season, not that novel anymore. Honeymoon period is over.

No, just 2 feds may consider ruckus . I'd only count US and Canada. China I don't think will move for Boyang. And I think Boyang knows it- Chinese Fed's focus is pairs skating, it's where we do the best, and most of the best skaters are fed into the pairs system very early on. The fact we got Boyang is a miracle IMO. Chinese fed will move for Beijing 2022, and Boyang's team is playing for that cycle. If he medals in PC, which is highly possible considering how he medalled while being written off the past 2 worlds, then it's just icing on top. I'm not sure what Spain will do. The bigger issue with Shoma this season is that quads may no longer be considered that "rare"- especially if Patrick brings a quad flip into the equation. Now for every quad you have at least 3 guys who can do it. No longer a novelty, it might be called much more harshly. This was closer to the trend when ladies started bringing in more 3Lz-3T/2T combos. The only real differentiation occurs on the tech panel calls and the GOEs once novelty wears off. And that is probably why I don't really agree with the idea of Shoma bring in a 4Lz. The novelty of the 4Lz, if Yuzu and Shoma both add it, will be 4 guys amongst the top 6, and more if we go out of the top 6. 4Lz might be considered before 4F for guys due to tendency to Lip. On the other hand, 4F is still not that common, so the novelty factor may still remain. And he has done it enough times that it makes sense to go for more GOEs, with the new system coming out after Olys. On another note, I'm so glad I don't see flip-flopping of positions and principles here. If we get into more technical details and infiltration of other forums, I'd also like to mention most of us in this chat are aware of which other forum and whom that specific person is. There isn't a need to mention it specifically.

....well let's give him some earplugs...some partial ones so he can still hear the general flow of the music but at a reduced volume and more blurry specific high notes....

I'd rather he does a nice, relaxing collab than Seimei. Give the guy a chance to have some fun before the season hits.

The way he said it, it seems like he will put it in, the only question is which competition he will trial run it. Right now of the top 6, only 2 guys can definitely do it cleanly, and we're not sure what Shoma will do. And indirectly, since we now know that he's confident about his 4 Lz, it's more likely that he's pushing some of the guys (Nate) to do a 6-7 quad program (and splat), or others (Shoma) to add it in and possibly fail (or get calls since a 4 Lz is no longer that rare). And that would give him more security to add it in safely without sacrificing the perception of consistency. I think all the guys, if they or team have half a brain, would have expected a 4Lz out of Yuzu at some point this season, but to hear him say he's got it is another matter. That means, probably over 60% consistency at least. At this point, if the FaOI footage is relesed or Yuzu just yolos it in practice, it's probably enough to make the other guys nervous and potentially splat. Speaking of which, if he's done it at FaOI, that means Shoma must have seen it right? And Nobu too -is it just me or did he look calmer than expected in that video, like he knows it's not final?

well, he did say that he wanted to marry when he is around 26, 27....chillax guys, he has another 12 years by this tweet.

...Need to see the full lesson. Normally when you start spinning, you learn with a bit of a toepick drag on the left spinning foot. Yuzu doesn't do that, and it's supposedly harder since the spin rocker is harder to find that way.

Yes there was! Wonder how the granddaughter felt, having her grandfather propose marriage to Hanyu for her, and directly on national TV.