Icenetwork: Should the minimum age for seniors be raised?

[Yatagarasu]

It's an article about should the minimum age for seniors be raised, with several peeps chiming in. Quoting just a few, the full article can be found here:

 

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/04/30/274122364

 

Quote

"Everyone now talks about jumping too much, and people starting to damage themselves," Arutunian said. "How do you want to stop that? In my mind, there is only one way: not allow them to compete (at seniors) until 18.

 

Quote

"Raising the age really seems like a good idea because it appears the way the sport is headed could possibly be discouraging to participation by a lot of skaters, particularly ladies, if they have to compete against young girls who have such an advantage (for jumping) with their smaller height and weight," Zakrajsek said.

 

Quote

"This young girl (Trusova) doing quads now, how is she going to be when she's 17 or 18?'' Orser said. "It's all fun, with everybody marveling on social media about her, but it could be a very short-lived phenomenon."

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm curious because I think a lot of this is connected to the ladies but I do think it should be related to boys too and no matter what Brian says here, he has Gogo who is 12 and doing quads. Raf of course had Nathan, and we know how that went for him and who knows how it'll pan out. Overall, doesn't seem likely just yet but it's a good article!

[cinemacoconut]

No because whoever is the best in the sport deserves to be the best regardless of age. 

[LucyH]

I can see the benefits of raising the age limit - in terms of longevity of careers and health wise.  I'm speaking in particular about Russian Ladies - they peak so young and then are done by the time they are 17 or 18 (Julia, Adelina, Elena, Anna P, etc. - succumbing to injuries, other issues related to having too much too soon.. etc). They did this in tennis as well, after all the stuff that Jennifer Capriati went through. If they were to do it for this reason alone, I think I would be in favor but I definitely don't really agree about raising the age limit due for competitive reasons - that seems like the wrong reason to do it. 

[yuzupon]

My former educator self is always wanting to protect children from all sacrifices needed to reach the top of anything, including competitive sport. So, I am all for raising the age limit.

If it's all for the sake of protecting the young ones from peaking too early (which in figure skating means not only having more physical injuries and permanent negative alteration to the body but also being exposed to expectation, media scrutiny, and fans harassment), by all means.

 

Just... these people...

 

Arutunian, really?  

Orser, seriously?

 

And yes, the full emphasis on the ladies feels so much like a direct attack on the state of Russian's ladies which are totally out of reach by other feds. But as far as I am concerned, the utter dominance of Medvedeva and Zagitova wouldn't have happened if the judges did their job properly, or even semi-properly. If the rise of BV doesn't automatically make judges also deliriously increase the GOEs and the PCS, more mature skaters would have stood a chance. 

 

The so-called "competitive reason" is total bullpucky, and in my ears what I can hear is "We are inferior to them, so let's bring them down to our level".

 

So, I guess the question is whether we care about the intent or the impact? Because I tend to care more about the impact, I'd say yes to increasing the age limit.

As for those with questionable intentions, they will get their due.

[Fay]

I for one am all for the age limit raise. It concerns one discipline in figure skating - women’s single skating, only. But there are certain coaches - or at least one coach - putting to use up an advantage prepubescent bodies give to 15-year olds - the ability to rotate jumps incredibly fast without having to jump high and far. If this tendency holds, then 18 year olds will start feeling like old people. 

[Katt]

I think current minimum age is fine. Or 16 would be ok but no more than that. People rant alot when Mao miss Torino by a few months, the same with Eunsoo and You Young. For a lot of skaters, they will quit once they got OGM/WC, be it a 15 y.o or 17y.o. Some only want to compete when they're young and then move on (I find this happen to alot US skaters). Tbh I don't want to see a young talent stuck in junior for 4-5 years. 2 or 3 years are enough. 

  I roll my eyes abit when I read Brian's comment. I always find there's a double standard when it comes to Trusova and Gogolev. Its not like men won't have to go through puberty. 

[singermelodie1]

Technically, the age is 16 since they have to turn 16 before July 1st. And it just seems hypocritical when their skaters (male) are doing quads at a young age. If it was their own ladies, they would even be pushing for it to be lower. 

And if these ladies don't retain their quads at 17? So what? And you never know when a skater will go through puberty. Tuktamysheva looked fully mature at 15 than satoko does at 20. Elisabet still looks like a little kid at 18. So the age limit wouldn't change a thing. Sometimes, medvedeva even looks like a kid at 18. 

[kelly]

4 minutes ago, singermelodie1 said:

Technically, the age is 16 since they have to turn 16 before July 1st. And it just seems hypocritical when their skaters (male) are doing quads at a young age. If it was their own ladies, they would even be pushing for it to be lower. 

And if these ladies don't retain their quads at 17? So what? And you never know when a skater will go through puberty. Tuktamysheva looked fully mature at 15 than satoko does at 20. Elisabet still looks like a little kid at 18. So the age limit wouldn't change a thing. Sometimes, medvedeva even looks like a kid at 18. 

Isn't it 15 before July 1st?

[singermelodie1]

31 minutes ago, kelly said:

Isn't it 15 before July 1st?

I meant the season start July 1st so technically the skaters are turning 16 before the season ends. So technically, the rule is 16.

[Yatagarasu]

17 hours ago, cinemacoconut said:

No because whoever is the best in the sport deserves to be the best regardless of age. 

 

Regardless of age? So say 12 is fine?

But why have the limits been raised, in for example gymnastics, and why do we in general have limits? We cannot just allow very young children into certain situations. For one, there is the mental pressure that they are in no way able to handle (just remember all the talk about how awful it was on Alina, and she was around 16 by then? or already 16). We cannot allow kids at that age to be put into those or similar situations. 

 

Second is something I agree with, I've quoted below:

 

15 hours ago, yuzupon said:

My former educator self is always wanting to protect children from all sacrifices needed to reach the top of anything, including competitive sport. So, I am all for raising the age limit.

If it's all for the sake of protecting the young ones from peaking too early (which in figure skating means not only having more physical injuries and permanent negative alteration to the body but also being exposed to expectation, media scrutiny, and fans harassment), by all means.

<snip>

 

So, I guess the question is whether we care about the intent or the impact? Because I tend to care more about the impact, I'd say yes to increasing the age limit.

As for those with questionable intentions, they will get their due.

 

The sacrifices are massive, no doubt. 

I think that the potential physical issues are the real question here but considering that the motives of some of these folks aren't too clear, nothing much will come out of it I'd bet. We also don't know quite yet just what is the influence of quads on bodies of 12 yos, we'll see in a few years earliest (much like we had for the -3Lo previously) so I think that proponents of quads in, essentially, kids will be able to hold this off until we get actual evidence of issues. 

And want to bet that even if that happens, and some data about harm starts showing up, it'd still be dodgy and nothing will probably change? Eh.

 

 

 

[Sombreuil]

One problem that isn't addressed is the training issue - you don't protect the under age adolescents from anything but actual competition- there is nothing to stop them from training all these potentially damaging jumps before the required age in the hope that they will make it through puberty etc.  

[Yatagarasu]

18 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

One problem that isn't addressed is the training issue - you don't protect the under age adolescents from anything but actual competition- there is nothing to stop them from training all these potentially damaging jumps before the required age in the hope that they will make it through puberty etc.  

I think we'd probably end up relying on social pressure to keep most coaches/parents in line but it'd be very hard to officially enforce. There is a degree of responsibility that belongs to that side too, it is not all on ISU. 

There will still be those who go for it though, there always are. I somehow feel more relaxed in these situations when we're talking adults; quads can be risky but you want to anyway, knowing that? Your call. I think we've always had that and always will and fine, you're an adult, you chose it. But with kids, especially those really young, there would have to be more care.

[Sombreuil]

And that takes us into the thorny area of 'when are you an adult' - 16, 18, 20?.  That varies across the world and across cultures.  Over the years in the uk most of the historical anomalies have levelled out and it's pretty much standardised at 18, ( driving, alcohol, voting,)  but the age of consent for sex is 16.......

 

Rugby is a dangerous game and they have a tiered system for the age at which teenagers can participate in the full on contact version of the sport - perhaps something like that might do the trick, but it took a number of bad accidents before the powers that be addressed the issue.

[WinForPooh]

I guess this has become relevant now that an actual request has been sent for the ISU meeting!

 

I don't know how I feel, really. What I want is a change in the way training is approached so that peaking at 15 and retiring at 18 isn't just how it is. Will there be more incentive for coaching teams to change how they approach training and technique if the girls cannot win a senior competition until they're 17? 

 

If Tuktamysheva could jump the 3A when she was not tiny, and Mirai could get the 3A after puberty, and Miki Ando could land 4S in practice after that, and Mao could rework her jumps and get the 3A back, if Gabby Daleman can (reportedly) land the 4T at 20, then I don't think it should just become accepted wisdom that women cannot jump 3As and quads after they're 17 or 18. That's where I'm afraid it'll end and I really don't want that. If training and technique are changed and adapted, it should be possible. That would be progress for the sport.

 

Training girls to rotate extra fast when they're really tiny with the silent accepted understanding that the technique will fail them when they're no longer so tiny is something I don't want to see. 

 

ETA: I just saw that Alice on her amazing blog said pretty much the same thing I did! Just saying that I'm definitely not Alice, she's much cooler and more knowledgeable, and I didn't see her new post before I posted this so I didn't just wholesale copy her thoughts and try to pass them off as mine!

[LucyH]

I am leaning on the side of increasing the age limit for the purpose of driving training changes so that the girls are taught techniques that can stand the test of time and puberty as opposed to relying on fast rotation and tiny bodies. In addition, I like the idea of longevity vs peaking at 15/16 for 1-2 seasons and then poof career’s over.