The 2014 Patrick Chan and Yuzu Situation

[KatjaThera]

36 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

We don't even have to imagine too hard. While Yuzuru is injured, you got all these young skaters with crazy technical contents challenging multi-quad programs. All of the sudden, Yuzuru (according to the US media) is no longer the one to beat. Rather this 18 year old with lower artistic skills and not much resume to back up his front runner status is the one to beat. Had Nathan won the Olympics, we would be in the same boat as PChiddy supporters most likely and be bitter til the end of days. It's why I give them some slack when they still talk about Yuzuru like he hasn't continuously improved his skating and tech through this entire quad and is no longer the noodily youngster with stamina issues. It's probably why while I had convinced myself that all I want is Yuzuru to have 2 skates he can be proud of in Pyeonchang medal or no medal. I always knew deep down, I would have SO MUCH problem had Nathan won. Not the same case for Boyang or Shoma since they've been actively trying to improve their programs (Boyang more than Shoma).

 

A bit OT, so under spoiler:

Spoiler

 

While I see the similarities between Yuzu back then and the youngsters now, I don't think the comparison is entirely fair. Yuzuru did not just count on his higher technical content, more or less willingly, he also improved artistically. He wasn't at Patrick's level, maybe as far as edges etc. but he did have transitions and spins and overall difficult programs. Yuzu was never just about jumps. And under Brian's guidance, he had no chance of being just about jumps.

 

On top of that, there's the attitude. Like @kaeryth said, Daisuke was fearful and generally, whenever I see him speak about Yuzu (be it now or in the past), he seems in awe of him, while Patrick was talking down his rivals or trying to ignore them (or pretending he's ignoring them). Yuzu, on the other hand, was: "Awesome! Bring it on and try to beat me!" Which, IMO, is another thing that makes Yuzu incredible, because it's probably the least typically human attitude of the three of them lol

 

I do sometimes wonder how Yuzu would have turned out without Brian's influence, skating wise, and without the earthquake experience, personality wise. But that's a different topic ^_^; (I do think the earthquake experience and everything else influenced his never give up attitude and made him a lot stronger than he maybe would have been if not for that.)

 

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think it's that fair to cut them slack because of this, because it wasn't quite like that. Also, IMO, Yuzu deserved to win at Pyeongchang because he's the best skater. Of course, there was the matter of showing it when it mattered and he did. In Sochi, I don't believe Patrick was that much better. At PCS, yes. Technically... not so much. While Yuzu was technically good on some things (minus salchow :P) and steadily improving otherwise. So I think it was fair it came down to who managed to hold it together the most. And IMO, Yuzu held it together much better. His fall and wobble were nowhere near as disrupting to his program and all of Patrick's wobbles. So, while I understand the bitterness, I don't think it's as 'justified' - as much as bitterness can be justified - as ours if Nathan had won (though of course, it depends on how he would have won, too).

 

 

[cinemacoconut]

17 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

If I remember correctly, that "I let him win" quote was obviously a joke on Patrick's side. His entire body language and tone of voice suggested that he wasn't being serious. Perhaps not the best-timed joke, but a joke nonetheless.

 

Back then, Patrick was a bit big-headed, I think. (Or a lot big-headed.) He had won 3 world championships, even when he was far far from his best. Yuzu saw him as the one to beat and if I have my facts straight, Yuzu actually asked for the same GP as Patrick so that he could compete against him more. Yuzu's first 2013 GP was flawed and then with his perfect TEB performances Patrick came out on top again. I suppose at that point Patrick didn't feel Yuzu was an actual serious threat so Yuzu beating him at GPF must have come as a shock. Suddenly Patrick couldn't stumble a few times and still win - and against someone with imperfect program either. Suddenly he was straight-out out-jumped. I think that joke "ehh, I let him win"  was Patrick's defensive mechanism, a way to say that that result was just him having a bad day and a way to escape the fact that Yuzu was an actual, real threat now. Which was his mistake, I believe. And then Yuzu broke the record again in Sochi SP - which must have disconcerted Patrick majorly. A wrench in his plans that he had only noticed - and refused to acknowledge - three months earlier.

 

One of the reasons I admire Yuzu is that his approach to competition is completely different from Patrick's. Yuzu never failed to acknowledge his fellow competitors, never indicated he might feel any animosity towards them for beating him. If somebody beat him, it meant it was up to him to become even better so that he could return to the top.

 

 

And Yuzu tried quad lutz and loop when Nathan and Boyang started becoming quadsters. And yuzu tried harder to catch up. Whereas Patrick was too arrogant and took it easy, not accepting the fact that Yuzu was a major threat and that he was in fact competing against a future Figure Skating legend prodigy. 

[cinemacoconut]

If Nathan won it would be a jumping bean olympic champion and figure skating olympic champions go to the total package. Thats why people agree with Yuzu as the two time OC. He is the total package. 

 

 

I hope if Yuzu goes to Beijing, whoever wins will be the total package that Yuzu is. 

 

Thats why I love Yuzu most. He is everything. The technical and artistic brilliance. 

[yuzuonice]

18 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

he seems to have grown up a bit, and none of the newcomers has his style, which though it can be a bit ponderous for my taste, is unique at the moment.

I was watching junior worlds and Camden Pulkinen totally has Patrick's style (I believe he even stated Patrick as one of the skaters he looks up to)

It was especially obvious in his gala exhibition, very Patrick-like

18 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

Yuzu saw him as the one to beat and if I have my facts straight, Yuzu actually asked for the same GP as Patrick so that he could compete against him more. Yuzu's first 2013 GP was flawed and then with his perfect TEB performances Patrick came out on top again. [...]

One of the reasons I admire Yuzu is that his approach to competition is completely different from Patrick's. Yuzu never failed to acknowledge his fellow competitors, never indicated he might feel any animosity towards them for beating him. If somebody beat him, it meant it was up to him to become even better so that he could return to the top.

Yuzu's healthy attitude to rivalry is truly something to admire. This interview is about 2015 Skate Canada where Patrick beats him, and Yuzu straight-up went and told him "Next time I will be the one to win"  And with no mal-intention at all! He is so mature and yet innocent to be able to say these things! 

(It's totally something a shounen manga protagonist would say, if anyone reads those  (Yuzu does)).

[asiacheetah]

4 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

 

A bit OT, so under spoiler:

  Hide contents

 

While I see the similarities between Yuzu back then and the youngsters now, I don't think the comparison is entirely fair. Yuzuru did not just count on his higher technical content, more or less willingly, he also improved artistically. He wasn't at Patrick's level, maybe as far as edges etc. but he did have transitions and spins and overall difficult programs. Yuzu was never just about jumps. And under Brian's guidance, he had no chance of being just about jumps.

 

On top of that, there's the attitude. Like @kaeryth said, Daisuke was fearful and generally, whenever I see him speak about Yuzu (be it now or in the past), he seems in awe of him, while Patrick was talking down his rivals or trying to ignore them (or pretending he's ignoring them). Yuzu, on the other hand, was: "Awesome! Bring it on and try to beat me!" Which, IMO, is another thing that makes Yuzu incredible, because it's probably the least typically human attitude of the three of them lol

 

I do sometimes wonder how Yuzu would have turned out without Brian's influence, skating wise, and without the earthquake experience, personality wise. But that's a different topic ^_^; (I do think the earthquake experience and everything else influenced his never give up attitude and made him a lot stronger than he maybe would have been if not for that.)

 

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think it's that fair to cut them slack because of this, because it wasn't quite like that. Also, IMO, Yuzu deserved to win at Pyeongchang because he's the best skater. Of course, there was the matter of showing it when it mattered and he did. In Sochi, I don't believe Patrick was that much better. At PCS, yes. Technically... not so much. While Yuzu was technically good on some things (minus salchow :P) and steadily improving otherwise. So I think it was fair it came down to who managed to hold it together the most. And IMO, Yuzu held it together much better. His fall and wobble were nowhere near as disrupting to his program and all of Patrick's wobbles. So, while I understand the bitterness, I don't think it's as 'justified' - as much as bitterness can be justified - as ours if Nathan had won (though of course, it depends on how he would have won, too).

 

 

Response to OT under the cut 

Spoiler

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm a Yuzu fan and never was a Patrick fan. I'm just reiterating some of the arguments Patrick supporters said about Yuzuru over the years and when Yuzu won at Sochi. There's no doubt that Yuzu's Sochi SP is far superior to Patrick. I'm also not blind to the fact that his FS isn't even the best Romeo and Juliet program wise that he's ever done. I think his 2012 version is far superior. It's why I've never really enjoyed Yuzu and Wilson collaboration on programs. Not a fan of Notre Dame de Paris. He and Jeffrey Buttle are a much better pairing. Although Notella Stella is much more redemptive choreographic partnership. The media (US specifically) treated Yuzuru like he's far inferior to Patrick artistic-wise during Sochi. The fact that Patrick didn't beat Yuzu by that much in Components was a little bit of surprise to the commentators. Yuzuru of 2018 is MUCH MUCH more of a complete skater than in 2014, but no less exciting and a joy to watch.

 

[cinemacoconut]

34 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

Response to OT under the cut 

  Hide contents

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm a Yuzu fan and never was a Patrick fan. I'm just reiterating some of the arguments Patrick supporters said about Yuzuru over the years and when Yuzu won at Sochi. There's no doubt that Yuzu's Sochi SP is far superior to Patrick. I'm also not blind to the fact that his FS isn't even the best Romeo and Juliet program wise that he's ever done. I think his 2012 version is far superior. It's why I've never really enjoyed Yuzu and Wilson collaboration on programs. Not a fan of Notre Dame de Paris. He and Jeffrey Buttle are a much better pairing. Although Notella Stella is much more redemptive choreographic partnership. The media (US specifically) treated Yuzuru like he's far inferior to Patrick artistic-wise during Sochi. The fact that Patrick didn't beat Yuzu by that much in Components was a little bit of surprise to the commentators. Yuzuru of 2018 is MUCH MUCH more of a complete skater than in 2014, but no less exciting and a joy to watch.

 

 

 

Ughh.. And I was really sick of US media hyping up Nathan as the Quad King. 

 

Yuzu doesnt have a total package rival jst yet. No one has the total package as equal as Yuzu atm. Maybe in the future, but not now. 

[Danibellerika]

6 hours ago, asiacheetah said:

We don't even have to imagine too hard. While Yuzuru is injured, you got all these young skaters with crazy technical contents challenging multi-quad programs. All of the sudden, Yuzuru (according to the US media) is no longer the one to beat. Rather this 18 year old with lower artistic skills and not much resume to back up his front runner status is the one to beat. Had Nathan won the Olympics, we would be in the same boat as PChiddy supporters most likely and be bitter til the end of days. It's why I give them some slack when they still talk about Yuzuru like he hasn't continuously improved his skating and tech through this entire quad and is no longer the noodily youngster with stamina issues. It's probably why while I had convinced myself that all I want is Yuzuru to have 2 skates he can be proud of in Pyeonchang medal or no medal. I always knew deep down, I would have SO MUCH problem had Nathan won. Not the same case for Boyang or Shoma since they've been actively trying to improve their programs (Boyang more than Shoma).

Kwan fans still aren't over Lipinski beating her after all these years.  And not to mention Yuna in Sochi is a permanent sore spot for Yuna fans. The salt is real.  

[cinemacoconut]

38 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Kwan fans still aren't over Lipinski beating her after all these years.  And not to mention Yuna in Sochi is a permanent sore spot for Yuna fans. The salt is real.  

 

 

So glad us yuzu fans dnt have that salt enduring grudge. Most yuzu fans r happy with Yuzu retiting anytime soon since he has that legendary 2 Consecutive OGM... 

 

 

 

Whatever happens Im sure yuzu fans dnt have grudges to hold against other male skaters. 

 

But i do wnt him to get 4CC Gold Medal. Hah....

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

8 時間前, KatjaTheraさんが言いました:

 

A bit OT, so under spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

While I see the similarities between Yuzu back then and the youngsters now, I don't think the comparison is entirely fair. Yuzuru did not just count on his higher technical content, more or less willingly, he also improved artistically. He wasn't at Patrick's level, maybe as far as edges etc. but he did have transitions and spins and overall difficult programs. Yuzu was never just about jumps. And under Brian's guidance, he had no chance of being just about jumps.

 

On top of that, there's the attitude. Like @kaeryth said, Daisuke was fearful and generally, whenever I see him speak about Yuzu (be it now or in the past), he seems in awe of him, while Patrick was talking down his rivals or trying to ignore them (or pretending he's ignoring them). Yuzu, on the other hand, was: "Awesome! Bring it on and try to beat me!" Which, IMO, is another thing that makes Yuzu incredible, because it's probably the least typically human attitude of the three of them lol

 

I do sometimes wonder how Yuzu would have turned out without Brian's influence, skating wise, and without the earthquake experience, personality wise. But that's a different topic ^_^; (I do think the earthquake experience and everything else influenced his never give up attitude and made him a lot stronger than he maybe would have been if not for that.)

 

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think it's that fair to cut them slack because of this, because it wasn't quite like that. Also, IMO, Yuzu deserved to win at Pyeongchang because he's the best skater. Of course, there was the matter of showing it when it mattered and he did. In Sochi, I don't believe Patrick was that much better. At PCS, yes. Technically... not so much. While Yuzu was technically good on some things (minus salchow :P) and steadily improving otherwise. So I think it was fair it came down to who managed to hold it together the most. And IMO, Yuzu held it together much better. His fall and wobble were nowhere near as disrupting to his program and all of Patrick's wobbles. So, while I understand the bitterness, I don't think it's as 'justified' - as much as bitterness can be justified - as ours if Nathan had won (though of course, it depends on how he would have won, too).

 

 

 

I agree with this completely. Something about that earlier post didn't sit right with me but I couldn't really put my my finger on it. You've put it into much clearer perspective. It's almost as if they were saying Hanyu was to Chan then what Chen is to Hanyu now, when Hanyu was sort of more like a mix of Uno and Jin (to put it very roughly), never Chen. And drawing parallels between Hanyu and Chan doesn't seem like an accurate exercise either considering Hanyu has been upping his technical ante and meeting his rivals head to head, something Chan has never done, being quite happy to remain where he was.

 

Back then, Hanyu was still plenty rough around the edges, sure, especially when you compare what he was then to what he is now, but if Hanyu's level of ability when it comes to combining performance and technicals then was where Chen's one is at now, he would be nowhere near the complete skater he is today. You could never call any of his senior programs empty. So rough as he was, he never all out ignored everything just for his jumps, just because he knew the judges were going to reward him regardless. Whatever the judges gave him he didn't feel he deserved, he made sure that he put out a performance later that would repay the judge's earlier generosity. He's never treated his generous scores as freebies or a bonus that he can keep on getting without having to work to deserve them.

 

So if Chen (or Uno* as well, really) had won over a Hanyu that has put out a decent performance that even while not perfect is still better than clean performances from Chen, I think I would be a lot more bitter than Chan's fans ever were, because I don't imagine the guy would ever want to get himself up to a level where he would actually deserve the victory. He would have felt he'd won because he was the best and that was that. He probably thinks he deserved every point of the 215+ he got for his FS. He deserved high scores sure but it'd be folly to think the judges weren't being overly generous with him that day, which he may have an inkling about but would likely never acknowledge.

 

Taking this topic to a slightly different trajectory, I wouldn't put Chen, 100 quads or no, before a decent to clean Hanyu, Chan or Fernandez with their usual number of quads (ie: less than Chen), though I might favor him more out of the other younger front runners. Even if Uno has great upper body action and facial intensity, his jumps really are not top contender quality no matter how much the tech panel and judges want people to think they are, and Jin's performance, even if he's improving and, like most everyone here, I've a soft spot for him, is something I have yet to find aesthetically pleasing.

 

Chen, on the other hand, already shows great potential for both, so even if he lacks the ability to marry them in competition,  as well as the desire to at least work towards gaining it, something that I find quite alarming and frankly, rather off-putting, I'd still be okay with him getting ahead of these other two in a scenario where all three had great showings. But never the other three even if their showings had some minor flaws. It's a whole different story if they bombed or made major mistakes they couldn't fix though, because if they left that many points on the table, then everything is fair game, lol. 

 

*And yeah, I'm one of those who thinks the podium would've looked better, even if not perfectly, justified if the #2 and #3 spots were switched around.

[theblingmonster]

6 hours ago, cinemacoconut said:

 

 

Ughh.. And I was really sick of US media hyping up Nathan as the Quad King. 

 

Yuzu doesnt have a total package rival jst yet. No one has the total package as equal as Yuzu atm. Maybe in the future, but not now. 

 Is the title of Quad King a good thing? To me, it seems to just emphasize that you can do a lot of quads, but a program is a lot more than just jumps, right? I suppose one could win just by doing a lot of jumps worth many points, but then the performance would be lacking? Nathan did 6 quads in his Pyeongchang FS, but I was sorta meh to the choreo of the actual program.

[theblingmonster]

3 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I agree with this completely. Something about that earlier post didn't sit right with me but I couldn't really put my my finger on it. You've put it into much clearer perspective. It's almost as if they were saying Hanyu was to Chan then what Chen is to Hanyu now, when Hanyu was sort of more like a mix of Uno and Jin (to put it very roughly), never Chen. And drawing parallels between Hanyu and Chan doesn't seem like an accurate exercise either considering Hanyu has been upping his technical ante and meeting his rivals head to head, something Chan has never done, being quite happy to remain where he was.

 

Back then, Hanyu was still plenty rough around the edges, sure, especially when you compare what he was then to what he is now, but if Hanyu's level of ability when it comes to combining performance and technicals then was where Chen's one is at now, he would be nowhere near the complete skater he is today. You could never call any of his senior programs empty. So rough as he was, he never all out ignored everything just for his jumps, just because he knew the judges were going to reward him regardless. Whatever the judges gave him he didn't feel he deserved, he made sure that he put out a performance later that would repay the judge's earlier generosity. He's never treated his generous scores as freebies or a bonus that he can keep on getting without having to work to deserve them.

 

So if Chen (or Uno* as well, really) had won over a Hanyu that has put out a decent performance that even while not perfect is still better than clean performances from Chen, I think I would be a lot more bitter than Chan's fans ever were, because I don't imagine the guy would ever want to get himself up to a level where he would actually deserve the victory. He would have felt he'd won because he was the best and that was that. He probably thinks he deserved every point of the 215+ he got for his FS. He deserved high scores sure but it'd be folly to think the judges weren't being overly generous with him that day, which he may have an inkling about but would likely never acknowledge.

 

Taking this topic to a slightly different trajectory, I wouldn't put Chen, 100 quads or no, before a decent to clean Hanyu, Chan or Fernandez with their usual number of quads (ie: less than Chen), though I might favor him more out of the other younger front runners. Even if Uno has great upper body action and facial intensity, his jumps really are not top contender quality no matter how much the tech panel and judges want people to think they are, and Jin's performance, even if he's improving and, like most everyone here, I've a soft spot for him, is something I have yet to find aesthetically pleasing.

 

Chen, on the other hand, already shows great potential for both, so even if he lacks the ability to marry them in competition,  as well as the desire to at least work towards gaining it, something that I find quite alarming and frankly, rather off-putting, I'd still be okay with him getting ahead of these other two in a scenario where all three had great showings. But never the other three even if their showings had some minor flaws. It's a whole different story if they bombed or made major mistakes they couldn't fix though, because if they left that many points on the table, then everything is fair game, lol. 

 

*And yeah, I'm one of those who thinks the podium would've looked better, even if not perfectly, justified if the #2 and #3 spots were switched around.

Wow, this was so in-depth and really puts a lot of things into perspective. You must've watched a whole lot of skating to be able to pick out the qualities in all of these skaters. So you're saying that Chen is complacent right now? Referring to his number of quads and unwillingness to marry them with artistry? Which is opposed to Hanyu who continues to try to improve himself?

[EisElle]

Warning: incoming boring wall-text

 

Strage enough, I've come to appreciate Patrick and his skating only after I learned to pay attention to the lower body and I learned more about figure skating. At first I thought he merely was a sore loser but he looks like a likable and funny guy when he's not talking to the press and I think he can be proud of the contribute he gave to the sport (including being one of the "walls" Yuzu had to overcome and giving him many kuyashii canadian silver medals LOL). I think CBC commentators often give a bit of perspective on how hard it has been for Patrick to come back in 2015 and suddenly find out the world hadn't stopped while he was away (on the contrary, it was racing ahead and leaving him behind). To miss the world and gpf podiums must have been hard to swallow... (more so, I think, after winning over Yuzuru in his comeback competition. I bet it made Patrick a bit cocky)

Mind you, I have not read all of Patrick's interviews nor watched all his competitions, so I could be wrong, but 

IMO Patrick's big "limit" was that he did not lost soundly in the quad leading to Sochi (last gpf aside). He knew he could have the edge in his tes and pcs and he thought his nerves would magically hold on the biggest stage, when in fact he had messed in many of his biggest competitions in the couple of years before Sochi, when he was facing the pressure of being The One to beat (tho he still won some of them). In retrospective, I don't think he had the same hunger for gold that shaped Yuzuru's whole career, and that reflected in his mindset toward competitions and competitors (for example, I'd think the first thing one who goes to "battle" does is to check what the heck his opponents are doing...)  

 

Imo part of the reason why Patrick has been able to (finally!) recognize Yuzuru's qualities is that he has made peace with himself not being the top guy anymore (and maybe olympic team Gold played a part too), tho somehow he even manages to turn his praises to others into a praise of his own character development 

tbh it made me a bit sad that someone who Yuzu so clearly admired and respected (and who had pushed him to get better) couldn't muster half a nice word for him...so it was very nice to see a bit of friendliness and Patrick's recent words are more than I could hope tbqh

 

Daisuke T. has also admitted recently that only now he is a commentator he is able to really appreciate the strenght of all skaters instead of being defensive and focusing on the flaws (thus imo reassuring himself that he was good enough to face his competitors).

In different ways Patrick and Daisuke's attitude kind of clash with the open and challenging mindset Yuzu has. Each one of those is human and understandable (I am quite the Daisuke type tbh) but I can't help but think that Yuzuru's attitude is a better example for all the young skaters to always appreciate what everyone can give to the sport and work on constantly improving themselves (and it can keep them humble and grounded). And I also think that there isn't better ambassador for the Olympic values (and for figure skating) than Yuzu, just like he also is a wonderful expression of how one can love his country and respect his cultural roots while also learning from other people and other cultures. Aaaand this ended in a OT shameless gushing over Yuzuru    

 

 

Re: "Sochi Patrick Vs. Yuzu" like "PC Yuzu vs Nathan"

While there are some parallels (age, the current number one vs the young prodigy) it is worth noting that:

 

1) after being the leader of the change, Patrick became blind to the change itself. On the contrary, Yuzu had seen it coming years ahead and, tho maybe some things happened faster than he thought, he was ready to the challenge. He only had particularly bad luck because all his injuries slowed down his technical advancement of at least a season/a season and half (but if we count all the off ice time, regaining his jumps and rebuilding stamina, it could as well be two whole seasons tbh). And even with that he is one of the few guys in the world who landed 4 different types of jumps in competition, and the older one (and the only one who can do up to 4Lo out of steps. I still haven't seen the same from the quad boys, not with the harder jumps). So much for being "technically behind". 

2) Yuzuru might not be the one out- jumping everyone rn, but he is the best jumper quality-wise. Currently he gets the highest goe and he does so while actually checking all the bullets. His goe could already eat part of the gap with Patrick's pcs pre-Sochi. Patrick had great 4T (planned in combo in the SP,  so not really out of steps), no 4S, better 3F but way worse and unreliable 3A. Yuzuru had a more airy 4T (also out of steps in sp), 4S bv and an uncomparable 3A. He did many of his jumps and combo with transitions in and out. Plus he had better spins imo (tho score-wise they were comparable). His chsq was an actual chsq. No judge would have ever given him any +2, let alone +3, for a single spread eagle or cantilever.

 

3) back then Yuzuru didn't even receive all +3 on his axel tho it checked all the bullets. One could Tell he was rather underscored in goe (compared to what he would deserve by the rules). No candies for him, not in goe nor in pcs. And Javi was doing lots of quads back then, but his pcs hadn't risen to 9s because of that. Different era.

Yuzuru had to actually work on pcs if he wanted to stay competitive. And his coach forced him to do so and suggested him to drop the Sal. The opposite of someone telling: yeah go for the quads boy, and: hey, th boy does a single spread eagle before one of his jumps, this is artistry, what else can you ask, he already does the quads! (rough gist off the top of my head of Raf's words about Nathan's FS last season... 4CC iirc) 

 

4) back then, no youngster could dream of pcs comparable to those of veterans right off the bat.

Yuzuru had to built his reputation over 4 years and he had already got a world medal in dramatic fashion (and conquered many hearts) at his world debut. Oh, and he had set a few world records too, so he had the points to beat a clean Patrick. It's likely Yuzuru didn't dream to completely close the pcs gap with Patrick tho, because literally NO ONE could back then, but only to reduce it so his total tes (bv+ GOE on ALL the elements, not only jumps) could place him ahead.

Worth noting tho that people like Max &Angelo were advocating he was close to Daisuke in pcs (at least in some components) in Nice. That was before the TCC make-over on his skating skills 

 

5) Yuzuru had actually beaten Patrick to gpf gold in both sp and fs. I'd think it has a different weight than a win with 2-3 (questionable) points of margin in the first gp of the season.

 

6) no one can legit say Yuzuru  sacrificed choreo to jumps. His PW sp was wonderful, his RJ2 fs had stamina problems but had complex and nuanced choreo. Yes, he went for a bit more backloading than Patrick (and one more 3A) but he wasn't just skating around between the jumps. At the very least he was going for quality

 

7) Yuzuru's injury helped the narrative of the next big thing leading to PC. With him out, the young guns played their game and Nathan got a bit of a upper hand (tho Boyang was injured too). If we were to trust patterns (and Yuzuru quite sticks to his) it's quite possibile Yuzuru would have won gpf and put a wrench in the whole narrative.

On the contrary, Gpf 2013 and Sochi Patrick was healty and well trained and leading to Sochi he was still the biggest favourite. He was still the favourite along with Yuzu after team SP.

 

8) in Sochi: Yuzuru didn't belonged to the holy trinity of figure skating (Canada, Usa, Russia)  

Patrick did.

In PyeongChang: Yuzu still didn't belong to the holy trinity. Nathan did 

So even fed politics-wise, 2014 Yuzu was not on the same boat of 2018 Nathan

 

Nathan  (or his team) tried to channel the image of Yuzuru (program with modern vibe, upcoming prodigy, winner of gpf just like the last teenager OGM). Many expected to see history repeat (conveniently, they remembered only the most recent piece of history, forgetting that for a long while before Yuzuru the OGMs were all in their 20s) just because Nathan is young and promising and he has the potential (tho Yuzuru came into Sochi with more than potential and he was never touted as the biggest favourite for gold...and all the latest male OGMs had all been older, it was hard to bet on a mere teenager) but what happened proved that in Sochi the young prodigy won because he was Yuzuru Hanyu, not because of BV or age. People will have to wait at least for Beijing if they want to see another young gun win, and tbh right now it looks like the current crop of "young guns" won't make things easy for the next big thing (and tbh at the moment I can't still see the next big thing among current juniors)

 

 

[KatjaThera]

I agree with all of the above.

 

I would like to add one more big difference between Yuzu at Sochi and Nathan & co. at Pyeongchang. It's something I've mentioned before already, but I think it's worth mentioning again in this context.

 

And that is that Yuzuru had been preparing for Sochi since the end of the previous Olympic Cycle. I don't know how much of it was planning - although it's Yuzu, so nothing would surprise me - and how much a happy coincidence - because I'm not entirely sure he could plan his senior debut to come right after the Olympics - but from the beginning, Yuzuru was aiming for Sochi. Of course, at the earliest point, he wasn't aiming for gold. He just wanted to get picked and go there. He also wanted to get a good result if he did go. He knew then that the only way to try to get good results was to up the technical content. So he did focus on quads in the early days, but like it's been said, he was never just about jumps. (Even as a child, he wanted to a be a skater that had it all: jumps, skating skills, spins etc.) And then he started winning. And I think he realized a victory might not be that impossible. Combined with, I guess, seeing Javi's very rapid improvement under Brian's guidance, I think he picked Brian because he felt that with Brian's help, rather than just get picked and get a good result, he could actually aim for Gold. But the bottom line is, from the beginning, his goal was Sochi and as good a result as he could get there. And slowly building up his arsenal - technical, skating skills, pcs, goe - to be able to be in a good position for that.

 

On the other hand, Nathan & co (maybe with the exception of Boyang, who has also seemed to take a gradual path and his goal seems to be Beijing more, anyway), they seemed to just be going through the motions until they suddenly started seeing the top and realized: "Oh... maybe Gold at Pyeongchang is possible... oh, it is!" then had two seasons to try to be ready for it. And since pcs doesn't grow like mushrooms after the rain, the only way to do that is what Yuzu did at first, too: increase the technical and hope for the best. But Yuzu did that only as the first step, that was then followed by other steps. The current youngsters didn't really have time for more, because I don't think they had seriously considered Pyeongchang before. So, poor planning on the part of their teams, IMO. Shoma has also been working on a bit more than jumps, but not enough and I think for him, too, gold at Pyeongchang didn't seem like a real possibility until his silver at Worlds last year.

 

To me that's a really big difference, too. (It's also a bit funny that Yuzu saw the quad revolution coming long before the ones who brought the quad revolution even thought about it :P)

[cinemacoconut]

20 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I agree with all of the above.

 

I would like to add one more big difference between Yuzu at Sochi and Nathan & co. at Pyeongchang. It's something I've mentioned before already, but I think it's worth mentioning again in this context.

 

And that is that Yuzuru had been preparing for Sochi since the end of the previous Olympic Cycle. I don't know how much of it was planning - although it's Yuzu, so nothing would surprise me - and how much a happy coincidence - because I'm not entirely sure he could plan his senior debut to come right after the Olympics - but from the beginning, Yuzuru was aiming for Sochi. Of course, at the earliest point, he wasn't aiming for gold. He just wanted to get picked and go there. He also wanted to get a good result if he did go. He knew then that the only way to try to get good results was to up the technical content. So he did focus on quads in the early days, but like it's been said, he was never just about jumps. (Even as a child, he wanted to a be a skater that had it all: jumps, skating skills, spins etc.) And then he started winning. And I think he realized a victory might not be that impossible. Combined with, I guess, seeing Javi's very rapid improvement under Brian's guidance, I think he picked Brian because he felt that with Brian's help, rather than just get picked and get a good result, he could actually aim for Gold. But the bottom line is, from the beginning, his goal was Sochi and as good a result as he could get there. And slowly building up his arsenal - technical, skating skills, pcs, goe - to be able to be in a good position for that.

 

On the other hand, Nathan & co (maybe with the exception of Boyang, who has also seemed to take a gradual path and his goal seems to be Beijing more, anyway), they seemed to just be going through the motions until they suddenly started seeing the top and realized: "Oh... maybe Gold at Pyeongchang is possible... oh, it is!" then had two seasons to try to be ready for it. And since pcs doesn't grow like mushrooms after the rain, the only way to do that is what Yuzu did at first, too: increase the technical and hope for the best. But Yuzu did that only as the first step, that was then followed by other steps. The current youngsters didn't really have time for more, because I don't think they had seriously considered Pyeongchang before. So, poor planning on the part of their teams, IMO. Shoma has also been working on a bit more than jumps, but not enough and I think for him, too, gold at Pyeongchang didn't seem like a real possibility until his silver at Worlds last year.

 

To me that's a really big difference, too. (It's also a bit funny that Yuzu saw the quad revolution coming long before the ones who brought the quad revolution even thought about it :P)

 

 

Yuzu watched jr Worlds and GP religiously didnt he? I remember him quoting alot of Jrs before in interviews. He knew cuz he watched Jr Worlds maybe

[meoima]

Sorry I do not have time to read all your comments, as one fan among people who witness Daisuke-Patrick-Yuzuru time, below are my notes:

- Yuzuru at WC 2012 should have won the free skate, and I am serious not because I like Yuzuru. I was not a big fan back then. But both Patrick and Dai did not do better than Yuzuru in the free IMO. 

- The result of WC 2012 is correct in my opinion. Yuzuru no doubt deserved the bronze as in SP he popped the lutz. Years after re-watching the competition, I have to say Patrick deserved to win that WC title over Daisuke. I'd say Daisuke had some scratchy landings too and his blade work was visibly weaker than Patrick. I have to note that Patrick did well enough in both programs to win IMO. Of course some people might prefer Daisuke but in my opinion, the results could go both ways but I do not think Daisuke was robbed.

- The results of WC 2013 was a messssssssss. I think most people agreed Patrick did not deserve that WC title and he could have lost it if it were not in Canada. One could make a case where Yuzuru deserved the bronze at WC 2013 and I agreed. But I will not hang up on that. Poor Denis Ten though, he should have won that year WC.

- If one wants to say Yuzuru in 2014 is similar to Nathan in 2018, I'd say it's unfair for Yuzuru. Nathan's programs in 2018 are filled with 2-foot skating and simple steps. When I tried to identify the top guys' skating transitions, my coach was like: "What Nathan does is figure jumping, not figure skating. Aside from jumps, Nathan's programs have almost nothing but 2-foot skating + simple footwork." And Yuzuru's programs at Sochi, even if they're not the best artistically performed, they're complex and full of difficult transitions. Yulena (the Russian blogger) intended to do an analysis of Yuzuru's Romeo 2.0 a long time ago with the remark like "It's such a crazily difficult yet so UNDERAPPRECIATED program."

- If you know me, you know that I dislike that Juliet program and the boobskirt so much lol, but it's a very difficult program with so many transitions, I doubt most of the current quad guys can execute it well. I am not a fan of David Wilson but anyway I give credit where credit is due. His programs for Yuzuru indeed were very complex and Yuzuru was on a mission of finding his own style back then, I would not call they were disappointments. 

- Patrick has never been the best at talking. He often makes people feel offended. I think he even criticized Shoma and Nathan quite a lot for their too many quads. Yeap many times I do not agree with Patrick's attitude. But I think Patrick as a skater, surely he knows the effect of quads on the bodies. So yeah he might sound kinda full-of-himself many times, but we should not diminish everything he says. We should be more selective though. 

- And last but not least, about the Sochi incident, there has been a great video explaining the whole thing: