General Skating Chat

[singcarcom]

30 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I know what you mean- I like toe jumps that are subtle- with Yuzuru you hardly notice the use of the toe pick - some skaters really whack that pick in and you feel sorry for the ice crew

 

That, and also doesn't that put more strain on the skater's legs? When I first started to learn how to recognize jumps, I thought the toe jumps literally mean the toe pick is the source of the jumping force. After seeing some subtle toe jumps, then it registered in my mind that those are toe-assisted jumps. I'm no expert, but is it better technique to not rely on the toe pick as strongly? Come to think of it, the less reliant on the toe pick the jump is, I think it's less likely to flutz or lip the jump because then you have less chances to change edges at the last minute?

 

For people who know figure skating, do you agree with the bv of the various jumps? We can pretty much agree that the axel is the most difficult while the toe loop is the easiest. But how is the difficulty of the loop compared with the flip and lutz?

[Xen]

49 minutes ago, singcarcom said:

 

That, and also doesn't that put more strain on the skater's legs? When I first started to learn how to recognize jumps, I thought the toe jumps literally mean the toe pick is the source of the jumping force. After seeing some subtle toe jumps, then it registered in my mind that those are toe-assisted jumps. I'm no expert, but is it better technique to not rely on the toe pick as strongly? Come to think of it, the less reliant on the toe pick the jump is, I think it's less likely to flutz or lip the jump because then you have less chances to change edges at the last minute?

 

For people who know figure skating, do you agree with the bv of the various jumps? We can pretty much agree that the axel is the most difficult while the toe loop is the easiest. But how is the difficulty of the loop compared with the flip and lutz?

I'm actually okay with the BV. Objectively, the ones with a bit of prerotation built in are the toe loop, salchow and loop. Objectively flip is easier than Lutz, simply because your body is turning into the direction of rotation, plus there's a bit of a pivot built there to allow you to do a slight rotation on ice before you launch. Besides the Axel, Lutz is the closest you get to a full rotation on ice. Also, the timing of both the flip and the lutz can be tricky when you start learning them-this is less an issue for toe loop, sal and loop.

 

In terms of quads though, I think quad loops might be possibly harder, simply because loops are harder at the entry point as you are relying on a single right back outside edge to get the lift for the jump. Yuzu's loops are pretty amazing height and distance wise. Lutzes and flips on the other hand, are easier to get height and distance. Which I think is an interesting issue. If majority of skaters actually find quad flips and lutzes easier than a quad loop, does that mean a quad loop's BV should be brought in closer to the quad flip and quad lutz bv?

[xeyra]

11 minutes ago, Xen said:

I'm actually okay with the BV. Objectively, the ones with a bit of prerotation built in are the toe loop, salchow and loop. Objectively flip is easier than Lutz, simply because your body is turning into the direction of rotation, plus there's a bit of a pivot built there to allow you to do a slight rotation on ice before you launch. Besides the Axel, Lutz is the closest you get to a full rotation on ice. Also, the timing of both the flip and the lutz can be tricky when you start learning them-this is less an issue for toe loop, sal and loop.

 

In terms of quads though, I think quad loops might be possibly harder, simply because loops are harder at the entry point as you are relying on a single right back outside edge to get the lift for the jump. Yuzu's loops are pretty amazing height and distance wise. Lutzes and flips on the other hand, are easier to get height and distance. Which I think is an interesting issue. If majority of skaters actually find quad flips and lutzes easier than a quad loop, does that mean a quad loop's BV should be brought in closer to the quad flip and quad lutz bv?

 

The 4Lo already is pretty close BV wise to 4F. I think they have 0.30 BV difference in favor of the 4F. Could be the other way around, though, considering. 

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

The 4Lo already is pretty close BV wise to 4F. I think they have 0.30 BV difference in favor of the 4F. Could be the other way around, though, considering. 

I wonder how much Yuzu actually prerotates his 4Loop? A lot of skaters seem to prerotate on ice between 90-180 for the loop, but I suspect extra-space-kitty Yuzu might be only about 90 degrees prerotation?

[Yatagarasu]

18 hours ago, katonice said:

So can we expect to see the shock factor of 4Lz lessen next season? Maybe less "shocked" scoring from the judges? Lol!

 

 

 

The more Lz-s around, the better for scoring more than likely because the differences between huge, beautiful ones and messy ones will be much easier to spot, so the very wow factor of the 4Lz, which might help cover a bit there, is gone. Of course, Boyang has that glorious monster of a Lz so it's all right for him either way but still, it's good. 

 

When Loch Ness monster shows up, then we'll see what wow factor is 

[liv]

I love that you said "when" the loch ness monster shows up... I fully believe in the when, not if. 

[yuzuangel]

19 hours ago, kaerb said:

I feel like someone showing a 4Lz is actually achievable makes a huge difference (cheers Boyang).

no love to brandon mroz? 

[Yatagarasu]

57 minutes ago, liv said:

I love that you said "when" the loch ness monster shows up... I fully believe in the when, not if. 

 

Knock on wood, and his health being good, yes, same, same. I do indeed think it's just a question of when! 

[Yatagarasu]

47 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

no love to brandon mroz? 

 

Fair question. Maybe because he re-tired soon after and it never really caught on. I don't even remember now, he ratified it in 2011,and the first official one in an Intl competition was NHK right after that and then he was done post GPs I think. Might be why Boyang's more influential with it. 

[liv]

It took time for skaters to develop the 4toe after Kurt did it, didn't it? His was 1988, and I don't think it became mainstream after that for a while. certainly not '92 olympics, '94 it was still not common...  only Urmanov, Stojko, maybe Barna before that too were really doing them at the top ( who am I forgetting?)... Stojko really started bringing out the quad combos....but it wasn't common until lead up to Nagano when guys like Kulik, Yagudin, Plushenko arrived and joined the party.

 

Maybe it takes time for these things to settle in... just like Midori and Tonya's 3As did not, and still have not, become regular players in the women's game almost 30 years later. 

[axelsandwich]

3 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

no love to brandon mroz? 

I'm not well versed enough in figure skating lore yet so I had to look him up and feel bad now LOL ;;;;; but I think Boyang definitely normalised it as 'a jump you can land'

[singcarcom]

8 hours ago, Xen said:

I'm actually okay with the BV. Objectively, the ones with a bit of prerotation built in are the toe loop, salchow and loop. Objectively flip is easier than Lutz, simply because your body is turning into the direction of rotation, plus there's a bit of a pivot built there to allow you to do a slight rotation on ice before you launch. Besides the Axel, Lutz is the closest you get to a full rotation on ice. Also, the timing of both the flip and the lutz can be tricky when you start learning them-this is less an issue for toe loop, sal and loop.

 

In terms of quads though, I think quad loops might be possibly harder, simply because loops are harder at the entry point as you are relying on a single right back outside edge to get the lift for the jump. Yuzu's loops are pretty amazing height and distance wise. Lutzes and flips on the other hand, are easier to get height and distance. Which I think is an interesting issue. If majority of skaters actually find quad flips and lutzes easier than a quad loop, does that mean a quad loop's BV should be brought in closer to the quad flip and quad lutz bv?

 

Thanks for the info, that's really helpful! 

 

I think as long as Yuzu is around, the quad craze won't stop because that's the only chance the youngsters have at beating him. We'll see if this quad craze keeps up after Yuzu eventually r*****.  Interestingly, we don't see the ladies increasing their tech content excessively to catch up to Evgenia. Not sure if it's because the 3A and quad barrier is too high for ladies to pass, but I think this is more healthy for the sport.

[Xen]

2 hours ago, singcarcom said:

 

Thanks for the info, that's really helpful! 

 

I think as long as Yuzu is around, the quad craze won't stop because that's the only chance the youngsters have at beating him. We'll see if this quad craze keeps up after Yuzu eventually r*****.  Interestingly, we don't see the ladies increasing their tech content excessively to catch up to Evgenia. Not sure if it's because the 3A and quad barrier is too high for ladies to pass, but I think this is more healthy for the sport.

Depends on what you mean by quad craze. As long as the top six guys can all do 3-5 quads in a free skate, the quads won't stop because that will be the minimum barrier you need to surpass to be top 6-10 in the men's. All the top new guys right now, even in juniors have quads at the ready, so Yuzu leaving competitive skating really won't put a halt on that. For the ladies, if the top 6 ladies consistently have a quad or a 3A in their programs, it will also stabilize and become the norm. Though the period right before it normalizes, I guess we'll call it the 3A craze in the ladies? 

 

It might not be perceived as a "craze" anymore because it's the norm. Until some guy starts doing 4-4 combos. Speaking of which, which 4-4 do you guys think will come first? Or will we finally have a guy throw BV to the winds and do a 3-4 first? Like a 3 Lz-4T? Is a 4T-4T more doable though?

[axelsandwich]

sharing @SSS's question here since I'm curious too about the comment that you can tell he's playing with 4A from looking at his 3A.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with the height of the jump or the extra speed he's rotating with now but that's just a guess.

 

[SSS]

1 minute ago, kaerb said:

sharing @SSS's question here since I'm curious too about the comment that you can tell he's playing with 4A from looking at his 3A.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with the height of the jump or the extra speed he's rotating with now but that's just a guess.

 

same applies to 3lz...

 

also I saw some comments about the way he lands jumps...like he does something earlier..but I can never tell... so curious..