General Skating Chat

[Xen]

1 minute ago, Eclair said:

well I have yet to see one video of him training on correcting his lutz edge after he said last season that he's trying to fix it. Just one video of him jumping a triple lutz with a true edge. 

Instead I see him jumping a 4flutz, so to me it's kind of obvious that he didn't use much time and energy to correct his edge (which would be kind of unwise to do in the olympic season anyways), but mostly trained the 4flutz as this will bring him points. 

But excuse me if I don't like shortcuts like this and don't think it should get the same amount one points as really rotated jumps. 

It is not so much if he wants to correct it, or if he used time and energy to correct his edge. It's a case of muscle memories. It took Yuzu how long to correct his Flip (2 seasons)? It might take Shoma that, or more to correct it. I think somewhere, someone said that Shoma's strength is that once he gets a jump, he can stabilize it fast, without thinking about it. That's a great advantage if you have good technique, and horrible disadvantage if you have bad technique-you might take longer to correct. 

 

I don't like to say that skaters are not aware of their shortfalls. I think they are aware-and considering how he jumps, his knees must be aware. If not for the points, he must correct it somewhat for the sake of his knees. My only question is, what is the state of his knees and hips, and can they last to 2022?   I would really miss him in 2022, he showed potential at WC 2017, and I'm not sure who will take up the mantle for Japanese men after Yuzu either. 

[Sombreuil]

You don't need to imagine a conspiracy or be protective of your favourite skaters to think that SU jump technique is a problem.  I don't know whether he thinks it's ok or not, but someone in his coaching team must be aware of the shortfalls in his technique( either that or they are criminally negligent and don't have a qualified jumping coach). 

It's not just a question of points - forget about points and competitions for a moment.  It's about bad practice,  which might potentially injure him, and definitely gives an appalling example to others.  

[Eclair]

2 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

He maybe needs a boot up his ass and the judges maybe need to at least be consistent across all skaters with their leniency on certain things or (preferably) tighten up their judging and call things that need to be called but it is hilarious that you seem to think it's all part of his grand plan to 'cheat' his way to the top. He knows full well that when Yuzu goes clean, he goes flawless and when Shoma goes clean he's squeaking by on iffy technique. He knows that even with a 4lz (e - called or not) he won't beat a clean Yuzuru. He knows he has to work on his jump technique.

If he wins over Hanyu on an occasion where Yuzu hasn't made a string of costly errors, sure get mad, but Shoma isn't some evil mastermind trying to cheat anyone. He's never been a strong jumper and rushed to get quads, picking up some bad habits and bad technique that needs to be smoothed out but in his mind now probably isn't the time, seeing how it's the Olympic season and at least for now he's landing his dodgy quads with little repercussions, trying to upheave his technique would completely mess with all of his jumps and he'd see a huge drop in consistency before he sees any improvement. It's a job to deal with the next Olympic cycle, especially since he's not suffering much point-wise from his poor technique - but that is on the judges and it's ISU's/the judges' job to adjust the judging to be fair.

 

It's fine to not like 'shortcuts' and to criticise Shoma's technique but suggesting he's building some plot and getting judges on side to never call his edges or UR is ridiculous. 

I remember reading on this forum that Shoma wanted to work on his lutz edge during off-season? Please correct me if I'm incorrect here.

But if a skater aknowledges and tell people that he is going to work on his shortcomings (something I applaud) but then doesn't show any sign to do it - on the contrary, even upping their game by adding a quad, then I personally conclude that saying so was just a hollow phrase. And it makes perfectly sense, as I would never expect someone to change his jumping technique during the olympic season. 

But if he goes the way to say so and then show up with no improved edge, but a quad flutz instead, then OF COURSE I kind of feel like he never intended to correct his edge this season in the first place. I don't think Shoma is an evil sheming devil, from what I could see from his personality, he always came off as nice, cute and shy. But I believe what I wrote is just his strategy, including betting on the 4flutz for the olympics by not showing them at the Grand Prix (except the final). 

I understand that you think this is crazy and paranoid, but let's just postpone this discussion, as time will tell if he indeed will act like I predicted or not. 

[Danibellerika]

Nobody here has a camera on Shoma every time he takes the ice to know exactly what he's working on and when he's working on it.  It's been acknowledged that fixing an edge is a slow process.  Just because he isn't doing a great jump here doesn't mean he isn't trying. 

[Eclair]

1 minute ago, Danibellerika said:

Nobody has a camera on Shoma every time he takes the ice to know exactly what he's working on and when he's working on.  It's been acknowledged that fixing an edge is a slow process.  Just because he isn't doing a great jump here doesn't mean he isn't trying. 

he would be the first to trying to fix his jumping technique and turning out with a quad instead though.. usually it's the opposite - you try to fix your technique, you go back to the roots, jumping double and triple lutzes with an outside edge. You don't start trying to jump a true quad lutz if you're trying to fix the edge ... But maybe shoma is being a novelty here, doing both?

[CupidsBow]

Just now, Eclair said:

I remember reading on this forum that Shoma wanted to work on his lutz edge during off-season? Please correct me if I'm incorrect here.

But if a skater aknowledges and tell people that he is going to work on his shortcomings (something I applaud) but then doesn't show any sign to do it - on the contrary, even upping their game by adding a quad, then I personally conclude that saying so was just a hollow phrase. And it makes perfectly sense, as I would never expect someone to change his jumping technique during the olympic season. 

But if he goes the way to say so and then show up with no improved edge, but a quad flutz instead, then OF COURSE I kind of feel like he never intended to correct his edge this season in the first place. I don't think Shoma is an evil sheming devil, from what I could see from his personality, he always came off as nice, cute and shy. But I believe what I wrote is just his strategy, including betting on the 4flutz for the olympics by not showing them at the Grand Prix (except the final). 

I understand that you think this is crazy and paranoid, but let's just postpone this discussion, as time will tell if he indeed will act like I predicted or not. 

 

but this is one video clip of one jump he did in one practice session. You don't know what conversations he is having with the people coaching him or what he's been trying in other practice sessions. You're looking at one example and deciding based on that he's making no effort at all to fix his edge and is conspiring to influence judging to get points/titles he might not deserve by avoiding edge calls and UR calls. That's what is bullshit.

He absolutely needs to fix his jump technique and absolutely needs to get the incentive to do so from better judging - no one disagrees with that. But altering technique takes time and has risks, and the judging is not Shoma's fault. He could get called for his edges/UR/PR any time at any competition, it is way too risky for him to purposely use bad technique on the assumption judges won't penalise him for it because that kind of luck is bound to run out. He can't know for sure that he won't get the calls. That kind of strategy is bound to blow up in his face at some point.

[Eclair]

Just now, CupidsBow said:

 

but this is one video clip of one jump he did in one practice session. You don't know what conversations he is having with the people coaching him or what he's been trying in other practice sessions. You're looking at one example and deciding based on that he's making no effort at all to fix his edge and is conspiring to influence judging to get points/titles he might not deserve by avoiding edge calls and UR calls. That's what is bullshit.

He absolutely needs to fix his jump technique and absolutely needs to get the incentive to do so from better judging - no one disagrees with that. But altering technique takes time and has risks, and the judging is not Shoma's fault. He could get called for his edges/UR/PR any time at any competition, it is way too risky for him to purposely use bad technique on the assumption judges won't penalise him for it because that kind of luck is bound to run out. He can't know for sure that he won't get the calls. That kind of strategy is bound to blow up in his face at some point.

no, I based my predictions on the interview Shoma gave, not just one random video of him. And in that interview Shoma said, that he is training the quad lutz and would like to include it next season. 

- which my initial reaction was - how is that possible if he wanted to correct his lutz edge this off-season? Then I saw the video with no improved edge and then I wrote what I wrote. 

 

And of course I don't think the purposely uses bad technique... I think he has no other choice to use bad technique as he is not willing to change his technique in the olympic season, but wants to skate for gold. So what's left to do? He has to bet on his bad technique to not be called, and the chance is smaller if he at least says that he's working on it even if it's not the case. But I guess you won't believe me and I won't agree with you so let's just wait for the season and see then...

[CupidsBow]

Just now, Eclair said:

no, I based my predictions on the interview Shoma gave, not just one random video of him. And in that interview Shoma said, that he is training the quad lutz and would like to include it next season. 

- which my initial reaction was - how is that possible if he wanted to correct his lutz edge this off-season? Then I saw the video with no improved edge and then I wrote what I wrote. 

 

And of course I don't think the purposely uses bad technique... I think he has no other choice to use bad technique as he is not willing to change his technique in the olympic season, but wants to skate for gold. So what's left to do? He has to bet on his bad technique to not be called, and the chance is smaller if he at least says that he's working on it even if it's not the case. But I guess you won't believe me and I won't agree with you so let's just wait for the season and see then...

 

That was not what you suggested in your initial post. You are back-peddling.

He might be beginning to work on his edge and is hoping to improve it while training the 4lz. Who knows. Do I expect him to have a perfect 4lz all the time when he adds it? No. No one does. All his fans know and joke that he's adding a 4flz. And he should get edge calls for it when he flutzes.

He doesn't have the time to fix his technique before Pyeongchang. He's only had 2 seasons in seniors and in those 2 seasons he's mostly been trying to get the quads to be competitive, rushing it and holding on to bad technique. A bad idea in the long term? Yes. But all he can really do is try, do what he can with his current technique, maybe try to smooth it out the best he can in off season and get through the Olympic season. Like I said earlier, the next Olympic cycle is the time to overhaul his jump technique - not this season. We'll have to see if he does.

He might have to hope his bad technique won't be called, I'm willing to bet more than that he's hoping his bad technique won't come out too strongly in competition though; that his 4lz attempt will stay on the right edge or at least be on the flat side and not an outright wrong edge or that he can control his PR/UR enough so that he's getting most of the rotations in the air and less likely to get a downgrade. I don't think his team is building a whole strategy around the idea that he will never get called by a tech panel. I think they are more likely to be building a strategy around minimising his jump technique/dealing with it as much as they can and hoping for the best. Your first post made it sound like he was being super shady working out where he can do a 4lz<< e and not get it called so he can lazily flop into a bad jump and still get the full BV for it.

 

That's very different to being unimpressed with his technique, thinking adding a 4lz is a mistake and being disgruntled he's not visibly doing a lot to fix his jump technique before Pyeongchang.

[Forcefield]

FS newbie here and I'm asking a real question hoping for answers and not a fanwar, of the squad taking Nathan out of the equation for a bit - Shoma v Boyang. Shoma has advantage of the PCS and Boyang when scoring is fair have the advantage over the TES (but let me know if I'm wrong though). If scoring was more strict would Boyang's higher TES ever put him at an advantage over Shoma who has higher PCS? Or is the gap in their jumps too small and the skating skills too big for Boyang to win?

[CupidsBow]

10 minutes ago, Forcefield said:

FS newbie here and I'm asking a real question hoping for answers and not a fanwar, of the squad taking Nathan out of the equation for a bit - Shoma v Boyang. Shoma has advantage of the PCS and Boyang when scoring is fair have the advantage over the TES (but let me know if I'm wrong though). If scoring was more strict would Boyang's higher TES ever put him at an advantage over Shoma who has higher PCS? Or is the gap in their jumps too small and the skating skills too big for Boyang to win?

 

If Shoma got more calls for under-rotation or incorrect edges or lower GOE because of his rather weak landings and lack of jump height, I think Boyang could have a slight advantage but I think it would be fairly even. It would come down to individual performances. though tbh i don't particularly think shoma's PR/UR-ing is as prolific as some users on here suggest. His jumps aren't the best and he has a tendency for it but it's not every jump.

[Joey]

49 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

You don't need to imagine a conspiracy or be protective of your favourite skaters to think that SU jump technique is a problem.  I don't know whether he thinks it's ok or not, but someone in his coaching team must be aware of the shortfalls in his technique( either that or they are criminally negligent and don't have a qualified jumping coach). 

It's not just a question of points - forget about points and competitions for a moment.  It's about bad practice,  which might potentially injure him, and definitely gives an appalling example to others.  

 

Not really sure how to say this nicely, but... Shoma has a really incompetent team when it comes to jumps. Between Yamadas students, the only worhtwhile discussion you can have is who manages to have the worst flutz of them all (and I'm saying that as a big fan of some of them). Remember how Mao tried for years and years to finally get rid of all her bad jumping habits (like a wrong lutz edge)? Yeah, thank Yamada for that. Or look at Kanako. Outside of Midori, I don't think any of her students even had decent technique.

(And before anyone feels sorry for the poor lady I'm so harsh on - remember that's the lady who threw shade like "skaters who train abroad always become rude". A+ xenophobia too).

 

16 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

He might be beginning to work on his edge and is hoping to improve it while training the 4lz. Who knows. Do I expect him to have a perfect 4lz all the time when he adds it? No. No one does. All his fans know and joke that he's adding a 4flz. And he should get edge calls for it when he flutzes.

He doesn't have the time to fix his technique before Pyeongchang. He's only had 2 seasons in seniors and in those 2 seasons he's mostly been trying to get the quads to be competitive, rushing it and holding on to bad technique. A bad idea in the long term? Yes. But all he can really do is try, do what he can with his current technique, maybe try to smooth it out the best he can in off season and get through the Olympic season. Like I said earlier, the next Olympic cycle is the time to overhaul his jump technique - not this season. We'll have to see if he does.

 

Eclair has this one completely right though - if you want to fix a bad habit, you go back to the easier jumps to get those clean first. Going for the 4Lz will make Shomas lutz edge likely worse... and I can't believe for a second that anyone in his team believes it would work.

As for what else he could do - why is correcting his technique now and aiming for 2022 with correct technique not an option? Like this, he banks on the fact he can train incorrect technique for 1-2 years and then can re-learn that in less then 3. That's... not something that sounds doable to me, tbh.

[Eclair]

30 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

That was not what you suggested in your initial post. You are back-peddling.

He might be beginning to work on his edge and is hoping to improve it while training the 4lz. Who knows. Do I expect him to have a perfect 4lz all the time when he adds it? No. No one does. All his fans know and joke that he's adding a 4flz. And he should get edge calls for it when he flutzes.

He doesn't have the time to fix his technique before Pyeongchang. He's only had 2 seasons in seniors and in those 2 seasons he's mostly been trying to get the quads to be competitive, rushing it and holding on to bad technique. A bad idea in the long term? Yes. But all he can really do is try, do what he can with his current technique, maybe try to smooth it out the best he can in off season and get through the Olympic season. Like I said earlier, the next Olympic cycle is the time to overhaul his jump technique - not this season. We'll have to see if he does.

He might have to hope his bad technique won't be called, I'm willing to bet more than that he's hoping his bad technique won't come out too strongly in competition though; that his 4lz attempt will stay on the right edge or at least be on the flat side and not an outright wrong edge or that he can control his PR/UR enough so that he's getting most of the rotations in the air and less likely to get a downgrade. I don't think his team is building a whole strategy around the idea that he will never get called by a tech panel. I think they are more likely to be building a strategy around minimising his jump technique/dealing with it as much as they can and hoping for the best. Your first post made it sound like he was being super shady working out where he can do a 4lz<< e and not get it called so he can lazily flop into a bad jump and still get the full BV for it.

 

That's very different to being unimpressed with his technique, thinking adding a 4lz is a mistake and being disgruntled he's not visibly doing a lot to fix his jump technique before Pyeongchang.

Well I apologize if my first post sounded like Shoma was the evil in person and being super shady, which is not what I intended. 

But that doesn't mean, that I'm back-peddling. I think his strategy of trying to get his pre-rotations and edges overlooked is born out of necessity not evilness, still it requires a strategy to reach this goal and that is what I wrote: 

We won't see his lutz edge improve this season. We will see him saying that he's trying to improve it. We will see him adding the 4 lutz in practices and senior B's even though he's supposedly working to fix his edge. We'll We will probably see the pre-rotated quad flutz at GPF, Japanese Nationals and Olympics. And it probably won't get called there. 

[CupidsBow]

1 minute ago, Joey said:

 

Eclair has this one completely right though - if you want to fix a bad habit, you go back to the easier jumps to get those clean first. Going for the 4Lz will make Shomas lutz edge likely worse... and I can't believe for a second that anyone in his team believes it would work.

As for what else he could do - why is correcting his technique now and aiming for 2022 with correct technique not an option? Like this, he banks on the fact he can train incorrect technique for 1-2 years and then can re-learn that in less then 3. That's... not something that sounds doable to me, tbh.

1

 

Lol really. 

I can agree that the going for the 4lz is not the greatest idea - he doesn't need it, the lz isn't a good jump for him, and training a 4lz is unlikely to help with his lz issues . But neither me nor you know what his training plans are or what he is doing in all of his training sessions or what his team plans are. Maybe his team aren't the greatest and he needs someone to intervene, i dont know. We'll see how he goes through the season.

What I objected to was not Shoma's technique being bad or the 4lz being a questionable idea. Maybe read my posts. My objection was the idea he's using it all as a strategy. Which is ridiculous. Off technique is his problem and his coaching teams' problem but off judging is not his fault and frankly, some of you have a nasty habit of exaggerating issues and calling judging a sham just because you don't personally agree with every call. If it's clear and obvious the jump had a problem and it wasn't called - that's bad judging. If you had to watch it HD at half speed 8 times to pin point the problem then it's not really that great of a crime that the tech panel missed it.

[Sombreuil]

10 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Not really sure how to say this nicely, but... Shoma has a really incompetent team when it comes to jumps. Between Yamadas students, the only worhtwhile discussion you can have is who manages to have the worst flutz of them all (and I'm saying that as a big fan of some of them). Remember how Mao tried for years and years to finally get rid of all her bad jumping habits (like a wrong lutz edge)? Yeah, thank Yamada for that. Or look at Kanako. Outside of Midori, I don't think any of her students even had decent technique.

(And before anyone feels sorry for the poor lady I'm so harsh on - remember that's the lady who threw shade like "skaters who train abroad always become rude". A+ xenophobia too).

So incompetence and arrogance rather than negligence you think?  I have wondered several times whether Kanako would have had more success if she had gone abroad after Juniors- sounds as though she might.

[Danibellerika]

14 minutes ago, Joey said:

As for what else he could do - why is correcting his technique now and aiming for 2022 with correct technique not an option? Like this, he banks on the fact he can train incorrect technique for 1-2 years and then can re-learn that in less then 3. That's... not something that sounds doable to me, tbh.

Because he is in the conversation for Olympic gold now and who knows what could happen between now and 2022? You strike while the iron is hot and take your opportunities when you can (especially rare ones like this one) because you never know when they'll be there for you again.