General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

56 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

Karen URs a lot though (just isn't called for some reason)... judges / tech panel needs to call these things otherwise skaters will continue on with what they're currently doing instead of fixing issues.

politics haha! after she became us champion, her jumps stopped getting called...

 

she usually URs her -3T because her 3Lz is sooo big and beautiful. Pity...hope she would fix the problem because otherwise she would be the complete package.

[Yatagarasu]

22 hours ago, Xen said:

Stockier build isn't really the reason why someone can or can't jump.

 

It is the muscles, while builds like Yuzuru's definitely help, no doubt.

Fast-twitch muscles are what we're looking for. Slow-twitch muscles are good for endurance, so you'll find them prevalent in athletes that are in sports that require high-endurance. Fast-twitch though provide an athlete with explosive, high power. They're best for sprints, jumping, etc. They fatigue easily though, as a drawback. A person has both of these, but the ratio is pretty much genetically predetermined. Lately there's been talk that one can train one group to shift into the other but I have no idea to what extent that even works. Anyway, jumps, foot-work and spins in figure-skating all benefit from fast-twitch muscles, and all the athletes who have issues there should work on training to at least somewhat improve (there's this thing called plyometric training that improves speed/strength/vertical jumping).

 

On 7/31/2017 at 5:30 PM, Valkyria said:

Also, about Shoma's 4Lz: good to know he's working on his edge, still on the fence about him managing to fix that and stabilize the quad at the same time. We'll see how it goes, but kudos to him if he manages 

 

Not possible. It takes years to fix a flutz that's been present since childhood, like his has been. You can still find videos of him as a kid flutzing. So while working on it is of course commendable, it'll take far longer than one summer to fix that issue. He's not the first to fight that battle. On the other hand, since they don't call his flip, which isn't even a flip, I don't think they'll call his lutz either, if things remain as they are.

[Yatagarasu]

On 7/31/2017 at 10:14 PM, xeyra said:

 

If all splat, a higher BV might help. 

 

I don't think all will splat but Olympics being what it is, I am sure there'll be issues.

Honestly, Yuzuru's highest average makes sense, not just in terms of overall consistency but in terms of the ability to perform at the high-pressure moments, like Olympics. This is why not the highest BV, but those that a person can deliver at the highest possible average, consistently, will most probably win the day. In those terms, even when stress is at its highest levels, the body knows, as its been trained over and over, and successfully delivered it over and over (like Zhenya).

 

Of course, watch him go wild for the FS and poo poo all over that but I think the SP is a manifestation of that philosophy he's been talking about since last season. 

 

Quote

The reason why I wanted 4lz now now..

 

You will get it. 
In a week tops too, I am willing to bet anything. What they layout itself will be, is a different matter. But soon, soon! 

[Valkyria]

52 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Not possible. It takes years to fix a flutz that's been present since childhood, like his has been. You can still find videos of him as a kid flutzing. So while working on it is of course commendable, it'll take far longer than one summer to fix that issue. He's not the first to fight that battle. On the other hand, since they don't call his flip, which isn't even a flip, I don't think they'll call his lutz either, if things remain as they are.

 

That's why I'd be very surprised indeed if he managed, but thank you for putting it on clearer terms XD

 

I'm still kinda surprised he's working on fixing the lutz edge, to be honest. His flutz doesn't get called that often and, as you say, it takes a lot of time and work to get over that kind of issues, time he doesn't really have now with the Olympics just around the corner. If only he had started sooner... but you'd need consistent edge-calling from the judges to force a skater's hand, lol

 

 

48 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

I don't think all will splat but Olympics being what it is, I am sure there'll be issues.

Honestly, Yuzuru's highest average makes sense, not just in terms of overall consistency but in terms of the ability to perform at the high-pressure moments, like Olympics. This is why not the highest BV, but those that a person can deliver at the highest possible average, consistently, will most probably win the day. In those terms, even when stress is at its highest levels, the body knows, as its been trained over and over, and successfully delivered it over and over (like Zhenya).

 

Of course, watch him go wild for the FS and poo poo all over that but I think the SP is a manifestation of that philosophy he's been talking about since last season. 

 

I agree with all this. As important as upgrading his tech is to keep up with the evolving field, keeping a high average is the greatest skill to have. Especially considering the unique pressure of the Olympics and the higher chances of splatting that these monster layouts entail 

[Xen]

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

 Lately there's been talk that one can train one group to shift into the other but I have no idea to what extent that even works. Anyway, jumps, foot-work and spins in figure-skating all benefit from fast-twitch muscles, and all the athletes who have issues there should work on training to at least somewhat improve (there's this thing called plyometric training that improves speed/strength/vertical jumping).

 

Not possible. It takes years to fix a flutz that's been present since childhood, like his has been. You can still find videos of him as a kid flutzing. So while working on it is of course commendable, it'll take far longer than one summer to fix that issue. He's not the first to fight that battle. On the other hand, since they don't call his flip, which isn't even a flip, I don't think they'll call his lutz either, if things remain as they are.

Eh, I went and checked that claim on google, and so far there isn't that much info that proves that you can turn slow twitch to fast twitch and vice versa. There was mention of the Type IIa muscles which seem like an intermediary group that has traits of both. But regardless, the issue is really using what fast-twitch muscle groups you have to the best potential. 

 

Then there's that pre-rotation of his flip....I wonder which is easier to fix, his flutz or his pre-rotation on the flip. Both are pretty much embedded in muscle memory now, so he'd have to fix from the singles on upwards... Makes me wonder what his single flip looks like, how the heck does he even take off with that much pre-rotation?

[Katarzyna]

On ‎01‎.‎08‎.‎2017 at 6:20 PM, Eclair said:

 

I don't think banning quads or restricting the numbers of quads would be fair, though. Even though I want to see longevity in men's skating, I think what causes most injuries is not the top talented guys training quads with good jumping technique. What causes most injuries is less talented guys overtraining or with bad jumping technique trying to achieve quads, like Eteri tried to do with Adian.  

 

Well, since I obviously very much like Adian (well, I’m doing a scap book project for him) I have to jump in here. Adian’s injury was neither caused by lack of talent or bad technique. Actually till his back injury really started to bother him I always thought that of all Russian skaters his jumps were most close to Yuzuru’s beautiful jumps. As far as I know his injury was caused by overtraining during intensive growth sprints combined with lack of proper off-ice conditioning and not timely taking care of proper treatment (= overtraining while being injured). Just check pictures of topless Yuzuru – Tarasova once said he is 50 kilos with boots, but you can see there definite abdominal and back muscles, like with any other skater in Brian Orser’s group. And then check similar pictures of Adian. The lack of core strength is obvious. While this approach might work with light girls doing triples, in particular before they hit puberty, it does not with guys and quads.

 

And by the way that’s what I observed as most career ending – not any injuries caused by any jumps, technique whatever, but not treating injuries timely and properly. 

[Eclair]

1 hour ago, Katarzyna said:

Well, since I obviously very much like Adian (well, I’m doing a scap book project for him) I have to jump in here. Adian’s injury was neither caused by lack of talent or bad technique. Actually till his back injury really started to bother him I always thought that of all Russian skaters his jumps were most close to Yuzuru’s beautiful jumps. As far as I know his injury was caused by overtraining during intensive growth sprints combined with lack of proper off-ice conditioning and not timely taking care of proper treatment (= overtraining while being injured). Just check pictures of topless Yuzuru – Tarasova once said he is 50 kilos with boots, but you can see there definite abdominal and back muscles, like with any other skater in Brian Orser’s group. And then check similar pictures of Adian. The lack of core strength is obvious. While this approach might work with light girls doing triples, in particular before they hit puberty, it does not with guys and quads.

 

And by the way that’s what I observed as most career ending – not any injuries caused by any jumps, technique whatever, but not treating injuries timely and properly. 

 

I'm quoting myself here: 'What causes most injuries is less talented guys overtraining'

 

While I can't say much about Adian's talent, but I was thinking of overtraining when I mentioned his name. Maybe I should have phrased it like following: 'What causes most injuries is less talented guys trying for quads or simply overtraining or training with bad technique.' This would be nearer to what I meant. 

[yuzuangel]

5 hours ago, Xen said:

Both are pretty much embedded in muscle memory now

Well let's just say I was learning a bad toe loop technique for a few months...and it took me like 6 months to fix it. It's a single toe loop. Meanwhile it look me about a month to learn the loop from scratch with (good, according to coaches here) technique.

 

I'm not a top skater, so it might be easier for them to fix bad technique. But then again they are doing quads and triples, so it might actually be harder.

[Pammi]

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this (I will move it if someone suggests a more appropriate thread?) but news re Wakaba and Marin's SPs:

 

[Altie]

1 hour ago, Pamyu said:

Sorry if this is not the right place to post this (I will move it if someone suggests a more appropriate thread?) but news re Wakaba and Marin's SPs:

 

 

I think this thread would be more suitable for this news :

 

[Yatagarasu]

Honestly, I am relieved there're just three more days to go so that we can finally move on at least somewhat. Bring on the eight! 

[SSS]

On 7/29/2017 at 0:37 AM, SSS said:

So I just went to watch 10 times H&L in different languages, then took a glance at WC last group FS, at the end tried to focus on Shoma's step sequence and performance... Considering the potential lenient judging next season, his arm movement looked so "dangerous", which totally scared me again... Then your post saved my life... Seimei's step sequence cured me. Now I can sleep with pooh in my arms peacefully...Thanks a lot!

cry for 0:25

 

On 7/29/2017 at 1:09 AM, kaerb said:

0:25 kills me - literally makes me gasp. It's so gorgeous, I wish he had kept it. 

Before the explosion/news of 2.0, I rewatched SEIMEI in SCAC, SC, NHK and GPF.. that 0：25 step was amazing in fancam of SCAC. Could not find it anymore after, but still could hear the music in NHK. In GPF, all the audience were clapping, the music could hardly be heard...It is ...kind of sad...Because you cannot get the feeling of that gasp...

[Xen]

1 hour ago, SSS said:

 

Before the explosion/news of 2.0, I rewatched SEIMEI in SCAC, SC, NHK and GPF.. that 0：25 step was amazing in fancam of SCAC. Could not find it anymore after, but still could hear the music in NHK. In GPF, all the audience were clapping, the music could hardly be heard...It is ...kind of sad...Because you cannot get the feeling of that gasp...

I want to see that missing step sequence of Seimei in Ex...that and the little leap that he does at 0:13. It's so pretty, and I now have a strange desire to see Yuzu do a falling leaf jump or a stag jump. 

[AsteroidB-612]

1 hour ago, SSS said:

 

Before the explosion/news of 2.0, I rewatched SEIMEI in SCAC, SC, NHK and GPF.. that 0：25 step was amazing in fancam of SCAC. Could not find it anymore after, but still could hear the music in NHK. In GPF, all the audience were clapping, the music could hardly be heard...It is ...kind of sad...Because you cannot get the feeling of that gasp...

Hahha I am bracing myself for the storm by watching old programs too... And the info that will make this thread explode probably will be whether he bring the 4lutz or not...(if he does, we will be busy pondering possibilities, if he doesn't...I think there will be many worrying posts haha)

As of now...I am learning to keep my expectations low and imagine the most conservative combo of music and components of his FS  

[Valkyria]

2 hours ago, AsteroidB-612 said:

Hahha I am bracing myself for the storm by watching old programs too... And the info that will make this thread explode probably will be whether he bring the 4lutz or not...(if he does, we will be busy pondering possibilities, if he doesn't...I think there will be many worrying posts haha)

As of now...I am learning to keep my expectations low and imagine the most conservative combo of music and components of his FS  

 

I have this feeling that he still won't confirm he's planning on adding the 4Lz? I'm sure he's been working on it all summer, but even if they've decided to go for it since the start of the season I think they won't tell. There's no need to give more info about his plans for his rivals to prepare against and the jump is not 'new' like the 4Lo was last year, since it's been around the field for a while, now.