General Skating Chat

[xeyra]

Adding to my earlier post, I do think Shoma will have more trouble with the 4Lz than Yuzu, since Yuzu doesn't have to fix his edge on it as well as rotating it. Whether Yuzu will consider the jump competition ready, though, will depend on how his training goes, as everyone has said. But even if the success rate is low, it might not stop him. A rotated 4Lz with a fall is still worth more than a 6.60 BV 3Lz that'll never get max GOE. His attitude has changed a bit with age and experience and last season's troubles, but maybe he will risk it, much like he risked the 4S so he could have his two 3As and 3Lzs in his Sochi FS's second half.

 

Or he might really want to go for super clean and not add it and still be competitive, especially with a 110+ points potential SP. It's just a question of weighing the risk of not upgrading the FS with it and relying on his gap in GOE/PCS to others not closing in too much, compared to the risk of upgrading it with a new element. 

 

Edit: Whatever his choice is, we'll know by August. 

[katonice]

2 hours ago, Xen said:

Forgot who asked about axels and axel entry types. But a rinkmate who is going to work on axels soon, said that he's only aware of a russian style and a japanese style of axel entry. I'll try to poke him a bit more about this, but I'm not sure how much variation there is on axel entry. It's all a skid-based entry, seems to be a lift off speed/quickness issue for how Yuzuru seems more “springy" in his axels. 

 

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

I remember Brian saying that Yuzu uses an edge-based Axel entry and Javi uses a skid-based entry. Do you know what this means? I don't have any idea how you would do an axel off a skid.

 

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Well the skid based entry is the one I heard mentioned while learning as a kid in the US. Actually I don't get it that much since I've yet to learn Axels yet. So again, theoretically, I'd refer to this post from Fay: 

 

Specifically this section: "Another problematic point of the Axel is a lift-off into the jump from the entry trajectory, which can be carried out either through a skid or through a toe-pick.I do not train my athletes specifically for either of these movements, as I proceed from the proposition that skaters must find for themselves the method convenient for them. But I depend on their skating skills, since when going into an Axel, athletes make a 3turn through the toe-pick. So you need to make sure that the entry curve of lobe in the waltz jump and in the Axel is not straight or only slightly curvy, it should be a true curve of lobe the way it should be in a 3turn. At its end, the skater has to push off the ice so that the lobe itself creates a rotational motion."

 

Thankfully it's kind of lunch break, so I can look. I went ahead and found a youtube vid of Javi's 3A with a slow-mo section. And the difference between his and Yuzu's 3A entries is now clearer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowd4uGc8hg Here for reference. 

- Javi's skid-based entry: his axel take off point, he's still on his blade, the rocker portion. He does not really have the toepicks as the last part of the blade leaving the ice. In fact his entire foot appears relatively flat when he leaves the ice. You can tell kind of from the giant spray of ice that goes up when he takes off.  The skid controls the edge and allows Javi to start the transfer of the weight to his right leg for rotations. 

 

Yuzuru's the one I've been looking at for a longer time. As reference: https://youtu.be/Fu7zyt7f9fc One of his no speed axels. If you look at the take off point of Yuzuru's axels, he doesn't have that giant spray of ice. In his axels, the last point of contact are the the bottom topicks, as his foot is rather straight when he takes off. So I'm guessing the edge based take off that Brian mentions is the toe-pick take off that Viktor refers to. 

 

As for which one is more effective/efficient....no idea here. I lean towards the toe/edge one personally, since I find it gives me a greater spring up. And since both my salchow and loop have the toepick leaving last during the spring-up, it's easier for me to remember. 

 

 

Fascinating discussion on the axel entry mechanics. One of the BBC commentators also often mentions how Evgenia, Sotskova, etc. have a very Russian technique of jumping their axels. Couldn't quite understand what he meant, but with this discussion I think I know now what to look out for the next time I watch their programs.

[xeyra]

A general skating question, for anyone who might be more familiar with skating moves.

 

I was reading this post about steps in FS and the poster mentioned that the less crossovers you do to accelerate the better and Yuzu does few of those, tending to use the chassé to gain speed instead. My question is mostly related to why gaining speed through crossovers is seen as more basic and thus less desirable than through a chassé. Is it because the first pushes off with the stroke of the feet and thus is considered easier, while the chassé uses the knees?

[Xen]

40 minutes ago, xeyra said:

A general skating question, for anyone who might be more familiar with skating moves.

 

I was reading this post about steps in FS and the poster mentioned that the less crossovers you do do accelerate the better and Yuzu does few of those, tending to use the chassé to gain speed instead. My question is mostly related to why gaining speed through crossovers is seen as more basic and thus less desirable than through a chassé. Is it because the first pushes off with the stroke of the feet and thus is considered easier, while the chassé uses the knees?

I'd have to get on ice to experiment for you, and unfortunately my toes are in pain this week. 

Actually crossovers also push off from the knee I think (especially if you are using them to accelerate). The only advantage I can think of for the chasse, off the top of my head, is that it's easier to go from chasse to single foot turns and footwork, than from crossovers. 

[xeyra]

I've thought of yet another incentive for Yuzu to upgrade his FS layout, unrelated to the youngsters: if Javi does add the 4Lo and Patrick the 4F, they'll be a lot closer in scoring potential with H&L Yuzu because they get similar GOEs and PCS when clean. So it might not be the youngsters alone making him upgrade but the fact Javi and Patrick might too! 

[Yatagarasu]

4 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

I remember Brian saying that Yuzu uses an edge-based Axel entry and Javi uses a skid-based entry. Do you know what this means? I don't have any idea how you would do an axel off a skid.

 

There are two ways to do an Axel entry, the skid is more common. You could vault directly off a clean edge, that is what Yuzuru does. The second way, is to skid on the forward take off edge slightly first. It helps the blade grip the ice on the take off better, and gives you more control. It's an acceptable technique that many use but personally I'd argue vaulting straight up incurs no loss of momentum, hence no loss of power while the skid does. Of course Axel being an issue as it is, having more control is a better choice for most. 

[Yatagarasu]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

I've thought of yet another incentive for Yuzu to upgrade his FS layout, unrelated to the youngsters: if Javi does add the 4Lo and Patrick the 4F, they'll be a lot closer in scoring potential with H&L Yuzu because they get similar GOEs and PCS when clean. So it might not be the youngsters alone making him upgrade but the fact Javi and Patrick might too! 

 

Oh. I know Patrick's off practicing the 4F with Tom, but are there any news on the 4Lo at all from Javi? He's in Spain but of course, he's had the 4Lo for a while now so it's not like he needs Brian. 

I'm also curious what they'll choose even if the new jumps are a go. Both the SP and the FS or just the FS? In the FS do they go for 3 or 4? I feel like if things progress well Javier would try to increase to 4 but honestly, I think it'd be difficult for both, after all this time. It'll be curious to watch them, regardless of Yuzuru who has his own choices to make, even with the Lz. 

[xeyra]

15 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Oh. I know Patrick's off practicing the 4F with Tom, but are there any news on the 4Lo at all from Javi? He's in Spain but of course, he's had the 4Lo for a while now so it's not like he needs Brian. 

I'm also curious what they'll choose even if the new jumps are a go. Both the SP and the FS or just the FS? In the FS do they go for 3 or 4? I feel like if things progress well Javier would try to increase to 4 but honestly, I think it'd be difficult for both, after all this time. It'll be curious to watch them, regardless of Yuzuru who has his own choices to make, even with the Lz. 

 

I think with Javi and Patrick, adding a 4th quad to the FS is probably going to add even more to their inconsistency, but at this point I also don't see the point in adding a new jump and not adding a 4th quad. Yuzu might add the 4Lz and still be competitive with 4 quads, but I'm not sure the same applies with only 3...

[Yatagarasu]

Just now, xeyra said:

 

I think with Javi and Patrick, adding a 4th quad to the FS is probably going to add even more to their inconsistency, but at this point I also don't see the point in adding a new jump and not adding a 4th quad. Yuzu might add the 4Lz and still be competitive with 4 quads, but I'm not sure the same applies with only 3...

 

I'd say so too but then I didn't think there was much justification to add the combo @gladi mentioned yesterday, to Javi's FS, and yet he did think about that. I am honestly not sure any longer. Also I wonder if in some ways Patrick would have it easier to increase to four because Javier's been in the 3 camp for a good while now and is used to the rhythm of it all. Since it was Brian who mentioned gradual transitioning, I do think it's possible that is what we'll end up seeing.
And yes, Yuzu can do both but since he's the type who goes all out we'll know right away. Come on August. 

[Xen]

7 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

And yes, Yuzu can do both but since he's the type who goes all out we'll know right away. Come on August. 

Chances of him going 4Lz+3T? No seriously, he's got enough edge running out at exits that I think he could pull it off.

[Yatagarasu]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

Chances of him going 4Lz+3T? No seriously, he's got enough edge running out at exits that I think he could pull it off.

 

Brian would murder him 
I do think he can pull it off but I don't think we'll see it. Too new. I think that the FS will be a standard 4Lz, 4Lo, 3F / insert the ending which basically depends on the 4 or 5 variant. Personally, I think it's a 5, so then I think it'd probably be the CoD, plus 2x4T, unless he surprises us with a 4Lo-3T but again, I feel like Brian would murder him. 

 

For the short, I am not even sure he'd change anything at all from what we have now but since it's Yuzuru, if he inserts the 4Lz for the solo I'd actually argue please, please temper it down by keeping the 4T combo. In essence, my question is - chances of Brian committing homicide?

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Brian would murder him 
I do think he can pull it off but I don't think we'll see it. Too new. I think that the FS will be a standard 4Lz, 4Lo, 3F / insert the ending which basically depends on the 4 or 5 variant. Personally, I think it's a 5, so then I think it'd probably be the CoD, plus 2x4T, unless he surprises us with a 4Lo-3T but again, I feel like Brian would murder him. 

 

For the short, I am not even sure he'd change anything at all from what we have now but since it's Yuzuru, if he inserts the 4Lz for the solo I'd actually argue please, please temper it down by keeping the 4T combo. In essence, my question is - chances of Brian committing homicide?

I thought based on the interview over the 4 loop that Brian's resigned to Yuzuru, and is probably going to try his best to ensure that Yuzu can most efficiently/effectively reach his goals, without dying in the process. Maybe a 4 Lz+2T as a compromise?  I wonder if it's physically possible to go 4 loop+3 T, usually you don't get enough momentum from a loop jump to chain a jump. 

[kaeryth]

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

I thought based on the interview over the 4 loop that Brian's resigned to Yuzuru, and is probably going to try his best to ensure that Yuzu can most efficiently/effectively reach his goals, without dying in the process. Maybe a 4 Lz+2T as a compromise?  I wonder if it's physically possible to go 4 loop+3 T, usually you don't get enough momentum from a loop jump to chain a jump. 

 

He did one during the gala rehearsal for NHK 2016.

 

[Yatagarasu]

1 minute ago, Xen said:

I thought based on the interview over the 4 loop that Brian's resigned to Yuzuru, and is probably going to try his best to ensure that Yuzu can most efficiently/effectively reach his goals, without dying in the process. Maybe a 4 Lz+2T as a compromise?  I wonder if it's physically possible to go 4 loop+3 T, usually you don't get enough momentum from a loop jump to chain a jump. 

 

4Lo-3T? Sure. Yuzuru has, in one of the practices during last season. It was very nice too, there's video on YT.

 

I think Brian is resigned to it yes, but seriously now, I think the Olympics season is the season to balance carefully the new (which is a necessity really at this point) and what is already familiar, in order to get the best balance for stability, ie consistency. Brian's been on this rodeo before so he knows this very well. There's also that Yuzuru himself is more conscious of and eager for consistency in his performances next season. So with a brand new quad, I think the chances for that particular combination are minuscule. 

[xeyra]

2 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

He did one during the gala rehearsal for NHK 2016.

 

 

I'm not sure a 4Lo3T would be any easier than just doing the 4Lz.