General Skating Chat

[xeyra]

I have given up hope for combo going first. It should because it offers a major safety net but lol, what is that? Also, lol what are my nerves? :whiteflag:

 

In terms of safety, I think the best bet is keeping the current layout but I don't actually believe even that will happen.

There's always that last jumping pass in the last moments of the FS to make you bite your nails all through the choreographic sequence. Low blood pressure, what's that!?

[Yatagarasu]

There's always that last jumping pass in the last moments of the FS to make you bite your nails all through the choreographic sequence. Low blood pressure, what's that!?

 

I know!

To make things worse, I think he's really into it, so if the music allows I get this feeling we'll be seeing it again (the 3A probably too) :s_crazy:

[Floria]

Wouldn't it be too risky to include 4Lz in both SP and LP? It gives you more chances to practice the jump in competition but if it doesn't go well it affect consistency and SP mistakes are costly as we all already know.

 

I remembrer reading an interview with a Russian coach (iirc Evgeni Rukavicin) and he said that there is a mental issue with doing different types of quads in the same program. 4Lo has different setup then 4S and it is difficult to switch mentally from one type of quad to another in a few seconds.

 

And 4Lo and 4S3T indeed had difficulties coexisting in the same program. I wonder what happens with 4Lz and how it can affect other jumps.

[CupidsBow]

Wouldn't it be too risky to include 4Lz in both SP and LP? It gives you more chances to practice the jump in competition but if it doesn't go well it affect consistency and SP mistakes are costly as we all already know.

 

I remembrer reading an interview with a Russian coach (iirc Evgeni Rukavicin) and he said that there is a mental issue with doing different types of quads in the same program. 4Lo has different setup then 4S and it is difficult to switch mentally from one type of quad to another in a few seconds.

 

And 4Lo and 4S3T indeed had difficulties coexisting in the same program. I wonder what happens with 4Lz and how it can affect other jumps.

 

Wonder if it would make his 3F go to hell....

 

I guess it'll depend on where it is in the program and how long he gives himself to transition from one jump to the next, what steps he has before etc. I dunno about LGC but I got the feeling at least part of the problem with the 4s3t in H&L was he really wanted to do it right on the musical accent but it was such a narrow window to get the 4s lined up and in the air he ended up rushing to it and making errors, when he compromised and had the jump a little after the music accent he was trying for the combo was fine... Just a feeling I got, I don't think he's really discussed why the 4s3t was giving him bother this season, but towards the end it also seemed he'd get too in his head stressing about the combo and mess it up as a result...I don't know if he would have the same problems in new programs...depends on if he can mentally wipe the slate clean.

[xeyra]

Wouldn't it be too risky to include 4Lz in both SP and LP? It gives you more chances to practice the jump in competition but if it doesn't go well it affect consistency and SP mistakes are costly as we all already know.

 

I remembrer reading an interview with a Russian coach (iirc Evgeni Rukavicin) and he said that there is a mental issue with doing different types of quads in the same program. 4Lo has different setup then 4S and it is difficult to switch mentally from one type of quad to another in a few seconds.

 

And 4Lo and 4S3T indeed had difficulties coexisting in the same program. I wonder what happens with 4Lz and how it can affect other jumps.

I think he finally found a way to make them coexist in the FS. By the end of the season (the 4S pop at WTT notwithstanding, that seemed to be a weird random slip than a lack of confidence in the jump). The issue, on the other hand, migrated to the SP, to the point he started having mental blocks over the SP itself (his comments on beginning to think he's bad at them). So he'll need to work on that. A change of music might help a lot; start anew.

 

Adding a 4Lz in the SP might be troublesome, but it's the only way I could see him going back to a 4T3T combo there. If he doesn't add 4Lz to the SP, he is not going to go from the 4S3T to a 4T3T, no matter what. The BV difference is minimal but he's already out-BV'ed in the SP and FS by all the three youngsters and I doubt he wants to give ground even a little there.

 

If he doesn't add the 4Lz to the SP, I see him keeping his current layout. Maybe try to move the combo to the second half. I don't think he's had a combo on his first jump pass since... 2012? And even then he'd combo the 3Lz more often than not. It would make things so much easier, yes, but he's never wanted easy. Then again, it's Olympic season: maybe he'll be a bit more reasonable! :think:

 

Whether the 4Lz makes an appearance in the FS is another matter. Even if it doesn't, Yuzu can't keep his current layout as is, if he doesn't want to be even more out-BV'ed.

 

We don't know yet if Nathan is going to bring in the 4Lo he has reportedly landed in practices, but even his planned 6-quad Worlds layout (two 4Lz, two 4F) is scary as heck in terms of BV. He won't be doing 6-quads from the beginning, since he can simply scale down depending on the competition, but he'll bring at least those 6-quads for the Olympic FS. Boyang will definitely add the 4Lo now he has more time to develop a layout with it. And Shoma... I have no clue what he'll do, whether he'll train the 4S or the 4Lz(e), whether he'll go for the layout he tried at WTT with the second half 4F combo.

 

Whatever they decide, they WILL be increasing their BV. And so Yuzu must also. But a layout without a 4Lz has some limitations on what increase in BV in can give (I posted some options earlier) and those with the highest BV difference do involve replacing 4S3T with 4Lo3T, an even less tried and true combo than 4S3T!

 

Summary of all this: we're doomed to worry about this until and after we know his planned layout a few months from now.

[Yoa]

Shoma just said he will try to include 4Lz... and we know how his 3Lz looks like...

Personaly I want Yuzu's FS layout to have 4 quads with 4Lz and 3A-3T. I am willing to sacrifice rippon :cry: With 5 quads every other element will loose quality and it will be much harder mentally. About SP... I hope someone will persuade/force him to make combo his first jumping pass

[xeyra]

Shoma just said he will try to include 4Lz... and we know how his 3Lz looks like...

Personaly I want Yuzu's FS layout to have 4 quads with 4Lz and 3A-3T. I am willing to sacrifice rippon :cry: With 5 quads every other element will loose quality and it will be much harder mentally. About SP... I hope someone will persuade/force him to make combo his first jumping pass

The article just mentions he needs to challenge additional quadruple jumps like the 4S and 4Lz, not that he'll definitely add the 4Lz. Considering his 3Lz(e)(!), I think he'd be better off with the 4S but toe jumps are sort of more his thing, aside from the 3A. I don't know what is going through his head, but he has actually not trained the 4Lz as he has trained the 4S, as far as I know.

 

I agree that a good way to raise Yuzu's BV is a 4-quad FS with a 4Lz and two -3T combos. Still sticks to mostly the same layout as this season but with added difficulty and BV. And then he would need to nail that. I guess it's all dependent on how he feels about the 4Lz in the off-season, though.

 

And given Shoma's ambition, I don't know if Yuzu can afford to not raise his BV next season in some way.

[Yoa]

And given Shoma's ambition, I don't know if Yuzu can afford to not raise his BV next season in some way.

 

To me it looks like he is obsessed with Yuzu. Like chill a little, kid :p

 

I really hope Yuzu will become good friends with 4Lz this summer :wink:

[guitarist]

I really wish this talk about 4Lz weren't necessary... Some of the other skaters can afford to learn the jumps at the expense of artistry, but we all know Yuzu's too hard on himself to do that, he always needs to be the whole package, and I don't want him to burn out. But well, not much we can do about it. I'm worried about Nathan, mostly. If he does manage to pull off a clean 6-quad program, I have a feeling his PCS will skyrocket even if his skating skills don't improve... And of course, Shoma's becoming frightening quite quickly. I'm not TOO worried about Shoma doing a 4Lz given his tendency to flutz, but still... Ahhh, this is so stressful, and we're just watching from the sidelines, I can't imagine what Yuzu's feeling. Actually, nvm, I can, it's probably along the lines of kuyashii and "have to work harder" :smile:

[meoima]

Shoma just said he will try to include 4Lz... and we know how his 3Lz looks like...

Personaly I want Yuzu's FS layout to have 4 quads with 4Lz and 3A-3T. I am willing to sacrifice rippon :cry: With 5 quads every other element will loose quality and it will be much harder mentally. About SP... I hope someone will persuade/force him to make combo his first jumping pass

The article just mentions he needs to challenge additional quadruple jumps like the 4S and 4Lz, not that he'll definitely add the 4Lz. Considering his 3Lz(e)(!), I think he'd be better off with the 4S but toe jumps are sort of more his thing, aside from the 3A. I don't know what is going through his head, but he has actually not trained the 4Lz as he has trained the 4S, as far as I know.

 

I agree that a good way to raise Yuzu's BV is a 4-quad FS with a 4Lz and two -3T combos. Still sticks to mostly the same layout as this season but with added difficulty and BV. And then he would need to nail that. I guess it's all dependent on how he feels about the 4Lz in the off-season, though.

 

And given Shoma's ambition, I don't know if Yuzu can afford to not raise his BV next season in some way.

If Shoma never looks at his cheated 4F and compare to Nathan's true 4F, I have to question his intellectual ability at a high stage.

 

I know many people like Shoma. But to me he is sort of a boy with high ambitions but not very bright. Shoma himself doesn't know he has a flutz does he?

 

If I were Yuzuru when they showed him Shoma's 3.2Flutz that Shoma failed in practice, I would have cry or laugh like crazy because...

- it's wrong edge clear as daylight.

- pre rotation, and it's not even a toe jump, it's an edge jump almost because Shoma leaves the ice from the edge. He never has true toe jumps.

 

Yuzuru has no issue of sort and we all know he watches Boyang's jumps like crazy.... for Yuzuru's to be forced to watch Shoma's jumps... oh well..

 

And Shoma might be stupid (sorry Shoma's fans) to think that Yuzuru won't upgrade his layout. Yuzuru has been practicing 5 quads (and he even tried 6 quads) in practice at CC. Only naive people don't know Yuzuru has all those options in his mind.

[Puniyo]

I really wish this talk about 4Lz weren't necessary... Some of the other skaters can afford to learn the jumps at the expense of artistry, but we all know Yuzu's too hard on himself to do that, he always needs to be the whole package, and I don't want him to burn out. But well, not much we can do about it. I'm worried about Nathan, mostly. If he does manage to pull off a clean 6-quad program, I have a feeling his PCS will skyrocket even if his skating skills don't improve... And of course, Shoma's becoming frightening quite quickly. I'm not TOO worried about Shoma doing a 4Lz given his tendency to flutz, but still... Ahhh, this is so stressful, and we're just watching from the sidelines, I can't imagine what Yuzu's feeling. Actually, nvm, I can, it's probably along the lines of kuyashii and "have to work harder" :smile:

 

That is actually a huge issue in FS at the moment. I believe Yuzu wanted to introduce new quads or increase the number slowly throughout the years but suddenly the young guns are all putting all their arsenal to display and this not only affects artistry, but also a whole range of skaters who can't afford to add so many quads in their programs. Yes, this is the era of quads but it could slow down a bit. :crybaby:

[meoima]

For fans who don't understand how cheated Shoma's 4F is, I will just leave this here

 

I have to say it's quite unfair to Nathan honestly. And let me tell you that Shoma's 3Lz is sort of taking off the same. He never has a true lutz. How can he get a 4lz. It's 3.2 flutz you mean?

 

I am amused at the level of ignorance.

 

Shoma Uno almost never has toe jumps. Because he pre-rotates almost 2/3 rotation on the ice and does not use toe lick but whole blade to leaves the ice.

[Hanmgse]

All this upgrade talk makes me anxious. I fear for the day when Yuzu can't keep up with the technical stuff anymore. I don't want him to be injured but at the same time I don't want him to stay behind. I know he is really wise to analize these things so I'm reeeeeally curious about what he is gonna do

[Yoa]

meoima said:

For fans who don't understand how cheated Shoma's 4F is, I will just leave this here

 

I have to say it's quite unfair to Nathan honestly. And let me tell you that Shoma's 3Lz is sort of taking off the same. He never has a true lutz. How can he get a 4lz. It's 3.2 flutz you mean?

 

I am amused at the level of ignorance.

 

Shoma Uno almost never has toe jumps. Because he pre-rotates almost 2/3 rotation on the ice and does not use toe lick but whole blade to leaves the ice.

 

Judges ignore his cheated 4F. That's why I am worried he will include 4Lz... I mean 4Flutz and judges will ignore the wrong edge and 3.2 rotations...

[meoima]

All this upgrade talk makes me anxious. I fear for the day when Yuzu can't keep up with the technical stuff anymore. I don't want him to be injured but at the same time I don't want him to stay behind. I know he is really wise to analize these things so I'm reeeeeally curious about what he is gonna do

Believe me, Yuzuru already skated clean 5 quads in practice at CC last season. He also might have tried 6 quads or the 4lz. For people to think that he couldn't keep up... he can even go ahead of them. :tongue: