General Skating Chat

[moni]

BTW, is there any other footage of Yuzu's 4Lz attempts except these four? His technique fascinates me.

 

2014 TCC media day (2:40) :  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29ekg5

2014 FAOI Toyama (12:47) : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x27qx8k

NYOI 2016: https://www.instagram.com/p/BEd_N7GKEJr/

WTT 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAbVUhqkVg?

 

[moni]

RE: popping jumps 

 

I don't know whether Yuzu and skaters doing quads could relate to this but I have some experience with popping (only doubles, though) and it's mainly mental. The head suddenly says "NO!" and the body follows. 

- lack of confidence

- lack of concentration

- overthinking/trying too hard

- nervousness/tension

- a mistake during the takeoff and getting scared of a bad fall

- messing up the timing

- just a bad day when everything feels wrong
 

And about the tendency to pop into singles/doubles/triples. It depends on the severity of mistake during takeoff and probably on the type of the jump, too. And I might be wrong but I think it depends also on the moment you start to doubt about it. If it's right from the beginning it will be a single or double and if it's later it will be a triple? 

 

If anyone has more knowleadge/experience on this I'm interested to read about it. 

[axelsandwich]

I was wondering how this thread moved so quickly in a number of hours but it looks like some posts from the General Chat got transferred over? Anyway, hello all and I'm glad we came to some sort of solution about the general chat situation (and geez, we should just send Yuzu these amazing charts since he seems to be that type of person too - my mind doesn't usually work via maths/stats but I'm trying to learn to not be intimidated by data so these are great!)

 

Also thanks for those 4Lz video compilations @moni, I've only seen the WTT one!

 

Re: popping -- my pet theory is that if you're a perfectionist with technique, you're more likely to be sensitive to mistakes at the point of takeoff -- so when your axis is slightly off and where other people might think 'I can save this', you might pop the jump instead. Or if you're concerned about avoiding injury by going for the revolutions or a risky save (which can be tough on the knees/cause other injuries), you may pop instead. Given Yuzu's history with injuries, I can see why he might choose to be more conservative. I think as Sochi and even CoC demonstrated, he'll go for the revolutions when he feels he really needs to. 

[kaeryth]

I don't skate but here's what Johnny Weir had to say about pops during Yuzu's 2013 SC FS.

Quote

... it's something that us skaters call a 'pop' and it's something that you can't control. Your body just says 'No!'. It's almost like throwing a cat into a bath tub.

 

[axelsandwich]

11 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

I don't skate but here's what Johnny Weir had to say about pops during Yuzu's 2013 SC FS.

 

LOL that analogy is true, as I found out recently trying to give my kitten her first bath. Nothing ever embodied the word 'NO' in neon lights more than her trying to escape the sink 

Yuzu does seem like the type to get too keyed up/anxious and overthink, even though he hides it well, so I'm not surprised this is a bigger problem for him. Ironic that the key for him may be to just - as Brian said - trust in his hard work (which he has done in spades) and let his mind go blank a little. Aren't pops penalised almost just as much as a fall? (if he pops to a single/double?) 

[Xen]

40 minutes ago, moni said:

RE: popping jumps 

 

I don't know whether Yuzu and skaters doing quads could relate to this but I have some experience with popping (only doubles, though) and it's mainly mental. The head suddenly says "NO!" and the body follows. 

- lack of confidence

- lack of concentration

- overthinking/trying too hard

- nervousness/tension

- a mistake during the takeoff and getting scared of a bad fall

- messing up the timing

- just a bad day when everything feels wrong
 

And about the tendency to pop into singles/doubles/triples. It depends on the severity of mistake during takeoff and probably on the type of the jump, too. And I might be wrong but I think it depends also on the moment you start to doubt about it. If it's right from the beginning it will be a single or double and if it's later it will be a triple? 

 

If anyone has more knowleadge/experience on this I'm interested to read about it. 

In Zuzu's case, probably overthinking, plus a bit of lack of concentration, if his Yolo WTT axel was anything to go by. Question about his entry speed then. Yuzu has a very short  and quicky entry on majority of his jumps. The only time during training when my coach forced a quick entry was when I tended to overthink, as a methodology to get me to *just jump.* Otherwise I would overthink about whether my foot angle is right, if the swing was right etc. 

 

A quick question to @xeyra : a couple rink pals were discussing the format changes for men coming up, and the recent clarification of ISU judging rules. A couple of the male rink mats think that the format change would actually help Yuzuru. The female rink mates felt the opposite. And the male rink mates also suspect some of the rules re-inforcements/clarification (vague as ISU wording is), is also able to help Yuzuru. So, has there been a men who got perfect 10's in PCS with a major flaw in their program in the 16/17 season? I don't think Zuzu got the benefit, but maybe some of the guys with high pcs and not so clean programs managed it?  And what do you think about the change in format as it pertains to Zuzu after Pyeongchang?  

[kaeryth]

4 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Yuzu does seem like the type to get too keyed up/anxious and overthink, even though he hides it well, so I'm not surprised this is a bigger problem for him. Ironic that the key for him may be to just - as Brian said - trust in his hard work (which he has done in spades) and let his mind go blank a little. Aren't pops penalised almost just as much as a fall? (if he pops to a single/double?) 

 

It kinda depends on the pop? It was very costly for Yuzu because he turns a quad into a triple/double. If you look at the base values for jumps (not even counting GOEs), when he pops a 4T into a triple he loses about 5 pts already while if he falls but does full rotations he gets a -1 deduction but gets full credit for the jump (again, not accounting for GOEs). It's why he was able to place 2nd at COC 2014. Despite 5 falls, he rotated ever single one of his jumps.

 

JUMP	+3	+2	+1	BV	-1	-2	-3
1T	1.0	0.6	0.3	0.4	-0.1	-0.2	-0.3
2T	0.5	1.0	1.5	1.3	-0.3	-0.6	-1.0
3T	3	2	1	4.0	-1	-2	-3
4T	3	2	1	9.8	-1.6	-3.2	-4.8

 

 

[axelsandwich]

20 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

It kinda depends on the pop? It was very costly for Yuzu because he turns a quad into a triple/double. If you look at the base values for jumps (not even counting GOEs), when he pops a 4T into a triple he loses about 5 pts already while if he falls but does full rotations he gets a -1 deduction but gets full credit for the jump (again, not accounting for GOEs). It's why he was able to place 2nd at COC 2014. Despite 5 falls, he rotated ever single one of his jumps.

 

JUMP	+3	+2	+1	BV	-1	-2	-3
1T	1.0	0.6	0.3	0.4	-0.1	-0.2	-0.3
2T	0.5	1.0	1.5	1.3	-0.3	-0.6	-1.0
3T	3	2	1	4.0	-1	-2	-3
4T	3	2	1	9.8	-1.6	-3.2	-4.8

Ah, thank you for this! It's a bit of an exponential curve in terms of points, isn't it? I guess you either risk the fall deduction (and deduction in PCS) but with full rotation, or you go for the pop, stay on your feet and maybe keep the 'flow' of the program stronger (though, personally, I feel like pops are basically perceived as falls/'I screwed up' that will impact PCS regardless, especially if it's a single or double). If we go by that table, a fully rotated quad + fall with -3 GOEs is still 4.0. I think avoiding injury is the main strategy for popping instead of going for it. Do pops (especially downgraded triples since they're the only ones that could be competitive) ever get +GOES or is there a minus simply for deviating from the intended layout? (not counting Yuzu's inexplicable +0.9 at WTT for his 1A lol)  

[kaeryth]

6 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Do pops (especially downgraded triples since they're the only ones that could be competitive) ever get +GOES or is there a minus simply for deviating from the intended layout? (not counting Yuzu's inexplicable +0.9 at WTT for his 1A lol)  

 

I'm not quite sure as I have a bad recall (Chiddy also got +GOEs for a popped jump at WTT, I think). Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there a specific rule about popping. So long as you hit those GOE bullet points then theoretically, you get the BV + positive GOE score.

 

Where a pop is most costly, I think, is in the short program because there are required elements. One of which is that the solo jump is either a quad or a triple (so if you gotta pop them quads instead of fall them pop into a triple). Jump combinations should consist of a 2-3 jumps, 3-3 jumps, or a 4-2 or 4-3 jumps... so no single jumps!

[yuzuangel]

35 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Do pops (especially downgraded triples since they're the only ones that could be competitive) ever get +GOES or is there a minus simply for deviating from the intended layout? (not counting Yuzu's inexplicable +0.9 at WTT for his 1A lol)

I think it's up to the discretion of the judge? Say if it's a double then it's possible, although I don't think judges ever give +3 GOE on doubles, but it might get a +1 if it's a nice double. Maybe with singles too if it's really exceptional, i.e. a 1A out of an ina bauer-spread-eagle  but I doubt a 1T would ever get +GOE just because a 1T for a top competitive skater isn't that difficult even if it's out of steps/has transitions/you tano the hell out of it.

 

A downgraded (>>) jump (not a pop), though, I think never gets positive GOE. For one, a downgraded triple is an overrotated double...

[axelsandwich]

32 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

I think it's up to the discretion of the judge? Say if it's a double then it's possible, although I don't think judges ever give +3 GOE on doubles, but it might get a +1 if it's a nice double. Maybe with singles too if it's really exceptional, i.e. a 1A out of an ina bauer-spread-eagle  but I doubt a 1T would ever get +GOE just because a 1T for a top competitive skater isn't that difficult even if it's out of steps/has transitions/you tano the hell out of it.

 

A downgraded (>>) jump (not a pop), though, I think never gets positive GOE. For one, a downgraded triple is an overrotated double...

Ah, I miswrote - I meant a pop from quad to triple, not downgraded triple in the technical sense. I'm just having fun speculating on if there's any scenario where a popped triple can get +3/high +2 GOES. Realistically probably not likely since it's not something you can prepare for until that split second. Maybe if he yolo'd with a tano....... Hard to imagine Yuzu with a tano though  

[kaeryth]

3 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Hard to imagine Yuzu with a tano though  

 

He's a rippon guy.

I wonder how Brian feels about the emergence of tanos.... hehehe (just kidding, I know he and Boitano are pals).

[axelsandwich]

14 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

He's a rippon guy.

I wonder how Brian feels about the emergence of tanos.... hehehe (just kidding, I know he and Boitano are pals).

HAH I didn't even think of that. Now I'm laughing imagining Yuzu doing Evgenia-frequency tanos and Brian in the background like 

Speaking of....what did people call rippons before Adam? Or was he the one who created the move (because he's so young! was this a recent trend?)

[Forcefield]

You guys are awesome, and I wish I didn't have to break the flow of discussion, but please help out a newbie here: what is a rippon and what is a tano? Are there gifs? Honestly, literally, I've been wondering about them for ages and didn't think I could find it in FS guides which mainly explained jumps and other major scoring stuff and not moves - plus it didn't even help when I googled it (or maybe I just didn't find the right keywords).

[katonice]

16 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Ah, I miswrote - I meant a pop from quad to triple, not downgraded triple in the technical sense. I'm just having fun speculating on if there's any scenario where a popped triple can get +3/high +2 GOES. Realistically probably not likely since it's not something you can prepare for until that split second. Maybe if he yolo'd with a tano....... Hard to imagine Yuzu with a tano though  

I remember Yuzu popped his planned 4T to a 3T during his WTT 2015 FS. It wasn't very obvious, and I think only those who are very quick to recognize number of revolutions would've noticed it in real time. He got full credit for the 3T and a +1.0 GOE for it (individual judges' GOEs ranged between +1 and +2).