General Skating Chat

[swanbeau]

i know taking away the 10% bonus is not finalized and is still debated but if they do take it away, wouldnt we just go back to frontloading again? also wouldnt that contradict the spreadability and balance mark? or they take it away and just rely on spreadability and balace mark on co in pcs to give points and/or punish skaters? but pcs judging in general is still a mess... so how do we know it'd even be applied well? selective punishment would be a disadvantage for small fed skaters, they have less weapon to force judges to give points to them (basically im worried for my korean bbs)

 

edit: regarding judges watching practice: some have been doing that so its not exactly news to me. at least at oly? i think brian said something about this. thats why yuzu n javi mostly did edge works in practice at that time. anyway dont worry so much about tcc skaters their team talk to and get advice from a lot of judges, they can adapt lol 

[OonsieHui]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:23 PM, wombat-poodle said:

I don't think the "judges can judge PCS off official practices" will make official practices a pre-comp comp.

 

^{What I think is that this rule is a thinly veiled excuse for judge's scores being different from what the skaters actually put out on the ice. So even if skater X from Big Fed Y splats and pops, they can get a high score because they, apparently, demonstrated a high level of skill in the OP. It's a fallback to make sure the anointed one doesn't ever bomb out of contention. <-- My *suspicion* only, not sure if it's true.}

 

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Oh I don't doubt the way it'll be used as a tactic as you described. But from the skaters and coaches point of view, suddenly official practices become a legitamately possible avenue to boost PCS. Before practices didn't count, only those minutes in the actual competition counted. How you think they will use that rule? 

 

P.s. I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone. I'm just really mad. But not at you, at the situation and at ISU

[cinemacoconut]

Why not just make 3 or 2 jumps compulsory in the first half?

 

 

Or have a seperate bonus point getter for more balanced programs? 

[cinemacoconut]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:25 PM, OonsieHui said:

 

Oh I don't doubt the way it'll be used as a tactic as you described. But from the skaters and coaches point of view, suddenly official practices become a legitamately possible avenue to boost PCS. How do you think they will use that rule? 

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I hate this. Once skaters take OP more seriously then there might be more collisions and accidents due to more try hard and raised tension

[wombat-poodle]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:25 PM, OonsieHui said:

Oh I don't doubt the way it'll be used as a tactic as you described. But from the skaters and coaches point of view, suddenly official practices become a legitamately possible avenue to boost PCS. How do you think they will use that rule? 

 

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Oh no, no worries, I know you're not mad at me.

 

I think practices will be waaaay more tense for sure. Part of me wonders if ISU didn't like the way Yuzu minimized his jumping practices at PyeongChang so as to hide the true state of his injury and physical condition (even though its a perfectly valid strategy and also the best one to take for his health!!!), and it makes me so mad. ): 

[Xen]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:09 PM, meoima said:

Also if you look at they’re trying to reward more 2 foot skating with upper body movements, it’s like a tool to score skating who have less packed transitions but good posture and hands as good as the Russian girls who have packed transitions. We might see Osmond same PCS as Medvedeva.

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For skating's skate, I hope you are right and that is how it will be applied.In which case, skaters like Satton who have good posture and significant transitions should get even higher scores in PCS.

 

My fear is that like everything ISU and FS related, it gets pushed too far and we get unintended results again that indicate more political than neutral judging.

[swanbeau]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:27 PM, cinemacoconut said:

 

 

I hate this. Once skaters take OP more seriously then there might be more collisions and accidents due to more try hard and raised tension

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watching practices isnt for jumps etc its for judging their skating skills so no worries there

 

anyway, take a deep breath, people. until we get the new rule book and its official what gets changed we cant really make any judgement right now. some of these have actually been applied (arm movements counting as tr, judges watching practice) so i hope those ones wont change the judging too much (it still sucks tho). GOE +-5 worries me more tbh, n taking away the 10% bonus (hope they wont pass this)

[swanbeau]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:29 PM, wombat-poodle said:

I think practices will be waaaay more tense for sure. Part of me wonders if ISU didn't like the way Yuzu minimized his jumping practices at PyeongChang so as to hide the true state of his injury and physical condition (even though its a perfectly valid strategy and also the best one to take for his health!!!), and it makes me so mad. ): 

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the practice thing is more for skating skills and not jumps so i think he's fine, his edges work on practice is always sublime

[xeyra]

Remember this is from a seminar for people applying to be judges so they're getting both the common guidelines in judging already in use (the transitions and watching practices aspects) as well as new knowledge about actual changes coming with the new system and other rules changes to combat certain practices this past quad.

[Xen]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:43 PM, xeyra said:

Remember this is from a seminar for people applying to be judges so they're getting both the common guidelines in judging already in use (the transitions and watching practices aspects) as well as new knowledge about actual changes coming with the new system and other rules changes to combat certain practices this past quad.

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Yep, and I guess having this news, and transparency is better than none.

Though my biggest curiosity is what are the bullets for the GOEs? What merits +1, +5 etc. Those guidelines aren't out yet, are they?

[xeyra]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:46 PM, Xen said:

Yep, and I guess having this news, and transparency is better than none.

Though my biggest curiosity is what are the bullets for the GOEs? What merits +1, +5 etc. Those guidelines aren't out yet, are they?

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Nope. They're going to have to Change how they attribute GOE and I'm the most curious about that.

[EisElle]

I've just been on twitter and saw those supposed rule changes.

If they will be confirmed... well, I knew there would be issues, but this is going to be really

 

Useless rant under spoiler, nothing much to add to what's has been already been said...but you know, I've already wrote it, so I'll post it

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And they say they want a balance of tech and artistry. Sure.

How on earth is rewarding darn arm movements supposed to help develop quality in the use of the darn skates???? Do these people really believe interpretation of music only comes from frigging arms and facial expression? Do they know what ballet is? What dance is? Do they know dancers aren't just walking around but actually using their whole body for expression?

Shouldn't the use of the whole body be valued more than the use of only half of it (and the easier half at it)?

Where do ISU people live? If you want to reward that mythological thing called "artistry", then at least value it how it's valued in dance!

I'll tell you, figure skating is going to be all dramatic!arms while taking a stroll on the ice (and things are going to get quite boring, there's only so much you can do with half of your body).

Just how on heart has ISU gone from compulsory figures to this? I've never been an advocate for figures to be brought back, but darn, SS and TR scores were supposed to evaluate the quality and complexity of the footwork, but now apparently all is good if everything but feet are used right. What a mess. And I don't like the possible deduction of BV of quads. Just when things were getting interesting in ladies, nope, they'll stop everything. Ok.

And why even think about introducing a double change of bv and goe all of a sudden? Just wait one darn season to see how that new goe system pans out!

And of course I wasn't expecting proper technique to be rewarded more, but seriously, they want to focus on ugly tano instead of PR and UR and wrong picking tecnique (and awful technology to help panels)? Like, seriously, ISU? It's the darn and very subjective aesthetics what you care the most about in a darn sport where you call an element "xyz" because it's done in a certain way? Why do you even bother calling that element "xyz" if you don't even care that it isn't at all a "xyz"?

Imo -1/-2 for ugly tano is even too harsh, if compared  to -3 on step out. If the tano is ugly, judges can merely not give the +goe for that bullet, you know (and again, what the frigging heck does ugly mean? It will be another highly subjective thing)

 

Also, the deduction for "unbalanced" programs is so clearly aimed at Eteri's girls it's not even funny (a lot of those rule changes looks like they're aimed at them actually). Thing is, ISU is forgetting Eteri's team is very good at exploiting the rulebook and her girls will still likely be the more consistent jumpers. Most of them have already mastered miming, I bet they can also master flailing arms.

Re: "spreadability and balance" and 10% bonus

I wish judges started to really consider that, as long as the elements match the music phrasing there is no real unbalance. If music serves no purpose at all, then just let's get rid of it.

They could have addressed whatever unbalance using IN and CO these past competitions and even PE if the execution of a good composition wasn't good (e.g. some of Alina's performances, when she missed music cues her jumps were supposed to hit), or TR if the quality was't on par with complexity. Everything they needed was already there in the actual guidelines, but no, ISU must think about taking away the 10% bonus instead, that very bonus that has an actual justification because it is hard to jump later in the program. Also, the bonus was what helps people with less quads or easier triples to try and keep up with the skaters doing the harder elements, so if they take away that bonus I'm expecting the gap between top skaters and the rest getting even bigger. It would reduce the number of  weapons skaters have to rack points, and I believe it would reduce the range of layouts we see right now. Harder jumps will always came first, combo will always came first. I think rn most of the skaters already have combo and harder elements frontloaded, actually what Alina and Eteri's juniors and Kaori are doing is an exception. But apparently the thought of 4 or 5 backloaded programs makes ISU tremble in fear. How dreadful must be to watch those programs in the overwhelming sea of programs with combinations and harder jumps in the first half

Also, take away that 10% bonus would be another hit at the BV, the only part of the score judges can't control that much (tho of course tech panels can).

I won't even start to talk about how reputation and belonging to a strong fed will inflate certain people's scores and deflate others.

 

Oh well, dear Boyang, if you want to go for that Beijing gold stop working on your footwork ASAP(but keep improving your crossovers) and focus on your arms.

 

Tbh the thing that irks me the most in this whole thing is that apparently complexity and good technique blemded with artistic expression are not deemed "desirable". Apparently it's better to work on only one of those things, because working on all of them isn't going to bring any real advantage

 

Re: judges watching practices

it is good that they can get acquainted with the skaters. it is good that they have time to see who has a good knee bend, who skates effortless, who has good technique and who has an abysmal one. What's is not OK if is what they see in practices is belied in the actual competition but judges still score based on thing they remember, not on what they really saw on the day. It's already happened when judges score pcs based on how a program was 8or was received) in previous competitions (I remember someone here said V/T used the strategy to build their pcs with more complex program at the beginning of the season and then they went reducing their transitions by Olys to have more consistency... and basically Nathan has done the same, and yet his PCS have virtually taken no hit despite his content really deteriorated). So if long-term memory and reputation from previous comp is so strong, how much stronger will it be the influence of the practice of the day before, or of that very morning? They shouldn't be told they can judge pcs based on what they saw another day. There is enough uncounscious bias already, when they are told to judge only what they see

It will only become another chance for judges not to be held accountable for some of the idiotic scores they give.

 

 

[OonsieHui]

It's amusing how people like us (some figure skaters, some just people interested in skating, NONE of us "experts" by any means) can think of really easy and straightforward methods to achieve what they say they want.

#Logic

 

Like I fell we're all yelling at ISU like " COME ON ITS NOT THAT DIFFICULT WHAT ARE YOU DOING WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT THAT HELPS NOTHING IT JUST CAUSES MORE TROUBLE... etc etc" and my favourite "JUST ACTUALLY JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE RULEBOOK AND STOP BEING BIASED AND HALF YOUR PROBLEMS ARE GONE DANGGIT"

[cinemacoconut]

People are gona start frontloading their jumps.

 

Just make it mandatory to have at least 2 jumps in the 1st half and the rest the skater decides. The 10 bonus system is to test stamina and it does bring out the best athletic skaters to an advantage and balances the program so that it doesnt become frontloaded.

 

 

ISU needs to look at Yuzu as the perfect model of a balanced skater.

He has transitions rather than jst boring repetitive crossovers and jumps.

What more can u do in crossovers other than graceful spreadout arms?

 

 

This is stupid. 

 

 

ISU shld jst leave quad base values but limit the number of quads attempted

 

Or just raise the PCS so u can get max 150 than 100. 

[Xen]

  On 3/5/2018 at 12:51 PM, xeyra said:

 

Nope. They're going to have to Change how they attribute GOE and I'm the most curious about that.

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We've been so  focused on the men's we utterly forgot how this would work in ladies. I think that's the real discipline that will be hit hardest. Think of what would happen to TES if say, Rika misses a 3A, or if Sasha misses a 4S. The risk far outweighs reward for the ladies, so in sum, the ladies can say goodbye to TES progress for a while. A Long while. Instead, the current lack of differentiation and muddling of PCS gets continued for a while longer, since the ladies have too much at stake if they attempt to raise TES with quads or 3A.

 

Ladies= real loser of the rules.