Japanese study group

[SparkleSalad]

Just now, Murieleirum said:

If you need to practice spoken Italian and some Japanese too (if I manage), I am here *blows a kiss* 

 

OTOTOTOT

I’m at the “Posso usare il bagno, per favore” level so maybe in a few weeks.   I might be visiting my relatives while I’m in Italy and I’ve never spoken a word of Italian to them so hopefully I can do more than ask if I may relieve myself by then (they all speak English but I feel ashamed.)

[Murieleirum]

4 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

OTOTOTOT

I’m at the “Posso usare il bagno, per favore” level so maybe in a few weeks.   I might be visiting my relatives while I’m in Italy and I’ve never spoken a word of Italian to them so hopefully I can do more than ask if I may relieve myself by then (they all speak English but I feel ashamed.)

 

That's definitely useful, you're wise to learn that xD 

[Hydroblade]

3 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

hopefully I can do more than ask if I may relieve myself by then

I've been saying it forever and i'll say it again: Italian confuses me because when i listen to it it feels like i should understand sounds way too similar to spanish

[KatjaThera]

I'm sorry, I took my time getting back here. I'm very embarrassed to say I somehow passed the N2 JLPT... it was pure luck and very little knowledge lol. I feel like Yuzu after Sochi, only worse, because he actually did really well, there lol. I think it was the 100 omamori for passing exams that I bought in Japan that did it LOL.

 

If I have time today - and I really hope I do, because I'd much rather do this and work, especially with my current cold ^_^; - I'll get back and reply to everyone here, re: advices and more chat! If not today, then ASAP.

[Xen]

1 hour ago, KatjaThera said:

I'm sorry, I took my time getting back here. I'm very embarrassed to say I somehow passed the N2 JLPT... it was pure luck and very little knowledge lol. I feel like Yuzu after Sochi, only worse, because he actually did really well, there lol. I think it was the 100 omamori for passing exams that I bought in Japan that did it LOL.

 

If I have time today - and I really hope I do, because I'd much rather do this and work, especially with my current cold ^_^; - I'll get back and reply to everyone here, re: advices and more chat! If not today, then ASAP.

Congrats!

[KatjaThera]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:47 PM, Hydroblade said:

Hm, i don't think that the correct part is that important actually, as long as you can communicate what you want to say. Of course you want to use it correctly, but i'd say that even if you are making mistakes, as long as you can talk with a good speed, it's ok.

(...)

Another reason why i feel stuck is that i haven't had much chance to use the grammar i've been seeing. When i finally had the chance (our PH banner is currently traveling from Japan to yuzuangel's house lol one of our japanese members had it) it felt really good but since i don't have much opportunity to practice, i haven't been able to use what i've learned as much as i woudl like to...

That's a very good point on fluency. Being understood is definitely more important than 100% correctness.

 

And I also understand what you mean by having a chance to use the grammar... When we study grammar in class, it's usually pretty easy for me to understand and it seems logical and I'm fairly confident. But when I write in Japanese, I tend to automatically stick to simple stuff and when I do realize I could use some of the stuff I've studied, it's usually hard to figure out how to do it properly. (About a year and a bit ago, I started writing fan e-mail to my favorite musician in Japanese... I'm sure it's been far from correct, and typing isn't the same as writing, but it still forced me to use Japanese. But lately I've been lazy and it's been hard to make myself write proper long e-mails ^_^; Writing the letter to Yuzu in Japanese was a challenge, too...)

 

On 1/16/2018 at 11:10 PM, kaerb said:

(みんなさん、久しぶりです！)

 

Yuzu talks fast, softly on the endings and also occasionally uses casual (boyish)/condensed forms of words (sometimes with a Sendai dialect which I had a kind PH user tell me via PM) so yeah, he's pretty difficult to translate. My process right now is essentially to try and transcribe parts by ear and write out the unknown kanji into Google Translate with my phone - I should probably write down recurring kanji in a notebook or something, partly so I don't have to keep looking it up. It's difficult as a non-native speaker because I don't have the vocabulary bank to guess at what he's probably saying so my transcribing is pretty much literally what I hear and then guesses based on context   

 

I never took the JLPT but I had a look at the sample tests out of curiosity and I believe I was essentially studying at N3 level before I had to stop so it's impressive you're at N2! I kind of sense that both you and @Hydroblade are extremely competent Japanese learners (more than me!) but it's perhaps your perfectionist tendencies robbing you of confidence? (also because English is your second (?) language so you're doing a 3rd -> 2nd language translation...which I am seriously impressed about already!) I had similar issues but I feel like I've gotten better (ironically after I stopped taking formal lessons lol) and feel that you shouldn't be too suspicious of your gut feelings because I think it's such a great asset to have developed a sense of 'right/wrong' even if you don't know exactly what the rule is - being corrected on an attempted translation is better than no attempt right? 

 

Re: learning kanji - I used to write diary entries in Japanese or even just make up stupid stories/sentences based on the 'new' vocab I was supposed to be memorising (a challenge was to use as many of the 'new' vocab words as I could while still having the story make sense). When I was studying Chinese (which was basically two semesters - 26 weeks - of memorising 60 - 70 characters every week...being a native speaker did not help with that), writing by hand but in context always helped me remember the meanings or at least associate certain characters with others. 

Writing down recurring kanji is something I've been trying to do many times, but never manage to stick to it. And I know what you mean by not having the vocabulary bank to guess.

 

To be fair, the sample tests on the jlpt test I think are generally a bit easier than the actual exams - this is more of a heads up to those planning to take it lol - but in many ways, I'm not sure the level is really that indicative of actual knowledge. One of the things my teacher often said is that there are many who pass N2, but aren't capable of speaking Japanese, because JLPT doesn't have speaking sections (unlike Cambridge, for example). Also, JLPT being multiple choice, it's also possible to guess the write answers, which is what I believe happened with me. There are N4 kanji I still don't know, but I managed to pass N4, N3 and N2. N3 I know I passed because I studied the week before it quite intensely and even though I didn't know the correct answers, I had seen most of those things enough that my intuition took over and I was able to find the answers that felt right. For N2, I didn't study - I realized it was just too much stuff to cover in a week, so I didn't even bother - but I wondered if I'd get that same intuitive feeling. I didn't, because I didn't have an experience for that intuition to be based on. So for most of the exam, it was pure guess work. And somehow that worked well enough that I passed. But no way do I have enough knowledge for N2.

 

Indeed, English is my second language, though sometimes I feel more confident of it than my first lol Or just generally I feel more comfortable with English. I also find Japanese-English/English-Japanese translations easier than Japanese to/from my language (even in my notebook, I sometimes write the meaning of new words in English). That could also be because that's how I experienced Japanese from the beginning (with subbed anime and such). So it feels more natural.

 

And your method of writing kanji does sound awesome and quite fail-proof... I'm just not sure I have the dedication or time to do that lol (N2 was discouraging because there were also kanji I can't imagine ever encountering, like specific business or so stuff. It feels like: why should I have to learn this? >_<) But I might try to give it a shot... now that I passed N2, I have no reason to rush and can just take my time and study slowly, without having the exam as a deadline. (N1 is a far away dream, I don't even dare consider it... maybe some day, just because, but... not now lol)

 

On 1/16/2018 at 11:59 PM, Lunna said:

I think it's time to spill my Japanese studying experience.

About 1.5 years ago I was lucky to be accepted to a free Japanese classes which are held by Japan Foundation in my city. If not this I think I hardly had a drive and motivation to study myself (really admire those who do that). There are many reasons why I'm doing this to myself (not that I was very good with languages in school at least): big part is to be able to understand Yuzu just a little bit maybe, plus for several years I was into anime and cosplay, and mostly I was interested in Japanese culture and wanted to go for a vacation there someday. So here I am now studying 2 hours 2 days in a week (1 day is with native-speaker, 1 day not-native speaker teacher). My classes are more speaking orientated but of course we also learn grammar and some kanji. And even though I study Japanese 1.5 years already (with holidays during summer) I feel like I know not so much to say the least. The pace of classes is not fast (and it's a course for beginners so we started from basics), but at the same time I feel like I couldn't keep up with more fast pace having a job and other interests. But I don't regret taking classes - it's really interesting and I met nice people with same passion as mine.

Finally, last November I made my trip to Japan - but partly was shocked by good English from people on the streets  maybe cuz it was Tokyo and Kyoto. I used Japanese only a couple of times when older ladies in shops didn't know English (to ask how much it cost or answer why the hell I need a proper yukata and dancing fan ). Not that I was shy to use my poor Japanese, but I more automatically begin to answer in English and more importantly my vocabulary is very poor, so even if I can ask a question doesn't mean I'll understand the answer.

I already mentioned in gen. chat that rn my nightmare is grammar. Partly cuz it's very different from English and my native language so it's hard for my brain to get used to it. Some time ago we stared to learn plain forms and I thought my head will explode 

I'm opposite. I know the rule (and a song to remember it  ) but it took a lot of time for me to get used to it. Some verbs that we use often in class I can tell in -te form without thinking but others take time. The hardest part for me now is that there's not only -te form but also -ru, -ta, -nai, plus in some situations there's -koto ga etc. etc. And you must remember in what situation what to use and how to change the verb accordingly  (and not only verb).

I'm not feeling stuck rn cuz I feel I'm not able to read anything apart from the textbook. But I don't know if I'll see a sentence will I be able to recognize the rule or not. Now I feel like the time of my classes is too small to practice all the grammar, and it's not individual courses - mostly we are doing lessons from our textbook (but classes are free so can't really complain).

And I don't even want to start with kanji - I can remember some from my classes, some are more hard, but I can recognize them in the textbook, I don't know if I'll be able to recognize them in usual book, cuz even now I see some are very similar.

So I hope that maybe in time I will be able to speak a little better in simple Japanese or understand a simple talk, but reading I fell like is very hard.

Ah, free classes, four hours a week sounds awesome... Admittedly, my classes are fairly cheap by comparison with others and it's 2 and a half hours with a native speaker, so I can't really complain. And I understand what you mean about feeling you don't know much. I started from scratch, too, initially with a non-native speaker, and I actually skipped a couple of levels, but I have classmates now who have been studying for fewer years and are at an even higher level, so I'm a bit confused lol That said, from the first time I started, we were warned that it takes at least 10 years of serious studying to become fluent. So with that in mind it's not so bad lol.

 

I didn't speak much Japanese when I first went to Japan, too, but I learned you don't really need to know much to get by. Kara... made was perhaps the most useful lol Especially for navigating the subway. I also fudged my way around particles, when I wasn't sure which to use, and would sort of mumble them And then knowing a handful of kanji was also useful, again, for navigating the subway. But most things have romaji versions, so... yeah. I don't think I used English much... that first time, there was a security guard at a concert, where stage side tickets were available and he was giving me the warning of you may not be able to see the stage etc. in English, but eventually he ran out of English lol. So I told him it's ok, I understand a bit of Japanese, too, and he was SO relieved it was really cute lol Last year, I did use a bit of English, mostly in connection with my JR Pass, though.

 

My advice re: grammar would be listen to a lot of Japanese. Anime, dramas, movies, TV shows. When you hear explanations of grammar forms, if you've listened to a ton of Japanese phrases, you might have a "Oh, so that's how that line was!" moments and it'll seem more natural. It doesn't necessarily make it easier to learn and use, but they shouldn't feel that foreign and weird anymore, I think. (Sometimes when we learn things I actually hear such lines in my head, in the voice of whoever said it, and it's much easier to remember it. I can't think of an actual example right now, though...)

 

Reading is hard... personally, I developed a style of reading where I just skip the kanji I don't know and then try to guess from context. Sometimes I realize, from context, that I did know the kanji and what it was and that helps for a while, if it reappears. The disadvantage of this is that I'm less motivated to actually look up stuff I don't know and it's frustrating when it takes time. I learned my first kanji by typing up interviews, like I said, but now I can't make myself do it anymore, because my 'reading' is much faster. So, pros and cons. However, this style was helpful in JLPT. Most of the people I know who took it, at N4 and N3, especially, said they didn't have the time to finish reading the texts in the reading section. I didn't have any problems with it, especially N3 was a breeze, even though I didn't know the kanji, vocabulary or even grammar properly. Simply skipping what I didn't know still let me understand the gist of the story or at least identify the patterns of the available answer choices. So it can come in handy, just not if you want to actually READ lol

On 1/17/2018 at 4:21 AM, SparkleSalad said:

More translation tips for printed text: 
I'm not sure if I mentioned it before but kanjitomo for windows is fantastic OCR program for translating printed text. You just load a scan of the text and it generates a list of vocabulary. You just hover over any words you don't understand and a list pops right up. I used it to translate this book which had a lot of technical language I didn't understand (if anyone is interested - though I can't attest to the accuracy - I could share the translation if I can dig it up. It's very interesting but very worrying. The illustrations by Mizuki Shigeru are fantastic.) 

 

As for memorising kanji, I think @kaerb's method of writing in context is the way to go. A bit OT but I watched a documentary about a barely literate man stuck on death row who made it his mission to teach himself to read while he was locked up. He would write any unknown words he came across in a notebook in 6 different sentences and he said he never forgot a new word that way. 6 was the magic number, apparently. I was struck by how eloquent and poetic he was.

 

I became lazy with my kanji and vocabulary acquisition after awhile and stopped actively writing and just let it seep in from watching TV with colourful subtitles. If I can't understand what's being said I can just read the kanji, or if I can't read the kanji I can hear it being said and it's a great way to shove it into your brain. I suppose a more sensible thing to do would be to get those read along audio/book combinations but I'm a big believer in the power of sparkly rainbow text and those study materials can be pretty dry. My reading comprehension got a massive boost this way but it doesn't really cover the writing part. It's so easy to rely on predictive text. 

 

  Hide contents

I just went back to my first posts here to see if I'm repeating myself - I probably am a bit - and I mentioned that I had a hard time understanding FS videos due to a lack of sports vocabulary and now I'm understanding quite a bit of documentaries and reading magazine articles without having studied. So, for those who just can't bring themselves to drill, passive exposure does work! I suppose it's not the most efficient way of learning, though.

 

I'm so full kuyashii watching everyone making progress in their studies while I've been out of commission.  After I finish cramming my head full of as much Italian as I can before Worlds I'm going to try and get my speaking back.

 

I'll give that kanjitomo a try as well... it seems interesting. Though scans of the books I want to understand are pretty difficult lol (I really don't want to ruin them). To be honest, I'm not trying very hard on writing, because my handwriting is atrocious in any language. But on the other hand, I've seen that handwriting kanji helps me remember them, because I become more aware of their 'components' so-to-speak. That of course, is time consuming, which is why I gave it up several times, but I think it is what works best for me, so I should try it again...

 

But I agree, passive exposure does work, I think it just works much more slowly lol

 

I also didn't need to use much Italian when in Rome - only in the neighborhood where my hotel was, people didn't really speak much English, but it wasn't a big deal, as all I really needed was to order pizza Of course, by the time my Italian started coming back to me - I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere before, but I'll mention it again, because it cracks me up I learned Italian as a kid, by watching Sailor Moon on Italian TV channels - it was time to go home lol I hope Milan will be a bit better, what with it being a longer stay.

 

And very much OT, but I remember another funny multiple languages story... (under spoiler)

Spoiler

a few years ago, I was in Paris and confused about what time the entrance to a concert was, so I asked a security guard nearby (this was in the morning, the concer was in the evening). I asked if he spoke English and he smiled sadly and shook his head. So then I started asking in very insecure French (I learned French for 10 years in school, but have no confidence in it) and he started answering in English, and then at one point I wanted to ask "is that the time for press as well?" but instead of the French "aussi" (for as well, also), I ended up saying "tambien" in Spanish. The two words don't even sound anywhere similar and I have no idea why it happened... I didn't even realize it until after we had finished talking and left. Poor guy must have ended up so confused LOL But that's the disadvantage of knowing bits of different languages, but none well enough... if I try speaking French, words in Spanish or Italian come up and vice versa. And now with Japanese as well...

 

(and that ended up being super long! >_<)

58 minutes ago, Xen said:

Congrats!

 

Thank you!

[SparkleSalad]

@KatjaThera I’m too sleepy and Spidermanny to read the whole thing right now but I just take photos of book pages with my phone and upload to PC so I don’t ruin them.

[KatjaThera]

1 minute ago, SparkleSalad said:

@KatjaThera I’m too sleepy and Spidermanny to read the whole thing right now but I just take photos of book pages with my phone and upload to PC so I don’t ruin them.

Oh, if that works, that's awesome then! Thanks for the tip!

[SparkleSalad]

7 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Oh, if that works, that's awesome then! Thanks for the tip!

 

Np! I use an app called Camscanner, though I don’t know if it’s necessarily the best. I’ve had no problems with it yet.

[Lunna]

55 минут назад, KatjaThera сказал:

And I also understand what you mean by having a chance to use the grammar... When we study grammar in class, it's usually pretty easy for me to understand and it seems logical and I'm fairly confident. But when I write in Japanese, I tend to automatically stick to simple stuff and when I do realize I could use some of the stuff I've studied, it's usually hard to figure out how to do it properly.

It was the same for me when I passed speaking test in my class a week ago

 

57 минут назад, KatjaThera сказал:

N3 I know I passed because I studied the week before it quite intensely and even though I didn't know the correct answers, I had seen most of those things enough that my intuition took over and I was able to find the answers that felt right.

I'm no way near your level but it was the same at grammar test in my class and also I remembered some audio lessons cuz I listened to them before the test.

 

1 час назад, KatjaThera сказал:

That said, from the first time I started, we were warned that it takes at least 10 years of serious studying to become fluent. So with that in mind it's not so bad lol.

Actually I understand that. I learned English at school which was long ago. And then used it for forums/travels and it took me a lot of years to be able to speak it right away without translating from my native language in my head (thought I'm not considering myself fluent, just enough for task in hand )

[Danibellerika]

Very good job ladies!! おめでとうございます!!

[Hydroblade]

7 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

(and that ended up being super long! >_<)

i read the whole thing lol, it was very interesting (i love reading about other people's experiences with language)

 

[Selfish post:] I passed! I was sure i was going to fail the test and while the teacher was grading it a person from the administration was handing out teacher feedback polls and the form to sign up for the next course but i only filled my information and left the level area blank... But i got 83/100! I am so happyyyyy

[axelsandwich]

How would you guys translate 理数系? (in the context of yuzu talking about setting goals)

[SparkleSalad]

On 26/01/2018 at 4:58 AM, Hydroblade said:

[Selfish post:] I passed! I was sure i was going to fail the test and while the teacher was grading it a person from the administration was handing out teacher feedback polls and the form to sign up for the next course but i only filled my information and left the level area blank... But i got 83/100! I am so happyyyyy

 

Fantastic! Congratulations on taming the transitive/intransitive beast! 

[KatjaThera]

On 1/27/2018 at 12:35 PM, kaerb said:

How would you guys translate 理数系? (in the context of yuzu talking about setting goals)

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd need a bit more context to make any suggestions for interpretation, especially since I've never encountered the term before. ^_^;