Japanese study group

[Murieleirum]

16 minutes ago, katonice said:

Sometimes I've even contemplated registering for the JLPT tests so that I'd be forced to study lol!

 

That would actually work as a deterrent for me  This August I started to study a bit of Japanese. But only the thought of maybe taking the JLPT 5 exam on December was enough to scare me away from the books, and stop studying alltogether - and I only returned to the books in January. But if that works for you, I say, go ahead and do it! 

[Danibellerika]

6 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

How long have you been self-studying Japanese to get through Genki I? Impressive work!

Thanks, but I would be way more ahead if I kept practicing lol.  I actually never used Genki I.  I just learned the material elsewhere that apparently covers what's in that book.  I took Japanese in college for a semester (but it was worth the credits of two classes) and then I had a tutor for little while after I graduated, but that was 10-11 years ago. I was completely out of practice for years. Then in 2016 I started self studying again whenever I could and I've been able to recall the stuff I learned back then and then some (namely learning more kanji).  I kind of want to get the Genki I book for completion's sake lol.  It would feel weird only having Genki II, but it might be an unnecessary expense. 

[kitsune]

What is the difference between kyoushi and sensei ?

Before I just knew that sensei means teacher and recently I discovered that kyoushi is also teacher. And I wanted to know the difference.

 

[surimi]

And I'll add one more question to kitsune's. Is pronoun usage typical for colloquial/slang spoken Japanese or something? I borrowed a book on expressing emotions in Japanese, which looks like it's using that kind of language, and the amount of pronouns is surprising, unlike in my textbooks. I'm having a hard time not saying pronouns when attempting to string together sentences in Japanese; but if I knew for sure it makes one sound too chummy or not polite enough, I'd have extra motivation to try and eliminate them.

[Hydroblade]

2 hours ago, kitsune said:

What is the difference between kyoushi and sensei ?

Before I just knew that sensei means teacher and recently I discovered that kyoushi is also teacher. And I wanted to know the difference.

 

Sensei doesn't mean just "teacher" you call doctors "Sensei" too.

In the education context, "kyoushi" refers to the profession, and if you are a teacher you wouldn't say 私は○○○の先生です because iirc Sensei implies some sort of rank or something (idk how to explain it. Is just how you wouldn't introduce yourself as 私は○○○さんです) so you have to say 私は○○○の教師です. Note how 教師 has the kanji 教 which means "learning" while the word Sensei has the kanji for "previous" and "life". I've always interpreted that word from the kanji as someone with "previous" experience with "life", which makes them qualified to pass their knowledge to you. And since it's used for doctors too, well... It has the kanji for life haha so it was easy to remember.

I would like to know why it's used to address "teachers" and doctors, though...

[Hydroblade]

1 hour ago, surimi said:

And I'll add one more question to kitsune's. Is pronoun usage typical for colloquial/slang spoken Japanese or something? I borrowed a book on expressing emotions in Japanese, which looks like it's using that kind of language, and the amount of pronouns is surprising, unlike in my textbooks. I'm having a hard time not saying pronouns when attempting to string together sentences in Japanese; but if I knew for sure it makes one sound too chummy or not polite enough, I'd have extra motivation to try and eliminate them.

I read once, and I don't remember where, sorry! That pronoun usage is discouraged, in one occasion I read that using あなた could be very impolite (and idk who I can call あなた AND who I can call 君 hahaha...) So personally I try to find a balance in both and rework my sentences so the subject can be dropped or the person I'm referring to inferred by the context,  to avoid using too much ○○○さん

[surimi]

22 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

Sensei doesn't mean just "teacher" you call doctors "Sensei" too.

In the education context, "kyoushi" refers to the profession, and if you are a teacher you wouldn't say 私は○○○の先生です because iirc Sensei implies some sort of rank or something (idk how to explain it. Is just how you wouldn't introduce yourself as 私は○○○さんです) so you have to say 私は○○○の教師です. Note how 教師 has the kanji 教 which means "learning" while the word Sensei has the kanji for "previous" and "life". I've always interpreted that word from the kanji as someone with "previous" experience with "life", which makes them qualified to pass their knowledge to you. And since it's used for doctors too, well... It has the kanji for life haha so it was easy to remember.

I would like to know why it's used to address "teachers" and doctors, though...

 

And my picture dictionary actually only uses the word 'sensei' in the description I find myself constantly rebuilding my vocab, as what I learn one day may turn out to be something different. lol.

[Hydroblade]

2 minutes ago, surimi said:

 

And my picture dictionary actually only uses the word 'sensei' in the description I find myself constantly rebuilding my vocab, as what I learn one day may turn out to be something different. lol.

You address your teachers with "Sensei" so i think it makes sense it's taught that way at first.

[Danibellerika]

1 hour ago, Hydroblade said:

Sensei doesn't mean just "teacher" you call doctors "Sensei" too.

In the education context, "kyoushi" refers to the profession, and if you are a teacher you wouldn't say 私は○○○の先生です because iirc Sensei implies some sort of rank or something (idk how to explain it. Is just how you wouldn't introduce yourself as 私は○○○さんです) so you have to say 私は○○○の教師です. Note how 教師 has the kanji 教 which means "learning" while the word Sensei has the kanji for "previous" and "life". I've always interpreted that word from the kanji as someone with "previous" experience with "life", which makes them qualified to pass their knowledge to you. And since it's used for doctors too, well... It has the kanji for life haha so it was easy to remember.

I would like to know why it's used to address "teachers" and doctors, though...

I've even heard it used outside of the medical profession. Like, I've heard mangaka's addressed as sensei. Because, as you say, it's someone experienced in their craft. 

 

On 6/24/2017 at 1:15 PM, Danibellerika said:

Thanks, but I would be way more ahead if I kept practicing lol.  I actually never used Genki I.  I just learned the material elsewhere that apparently covers what's in that book.  I took Japanese in college for a semester (but it was worth the credits of two classes) and then I had a tutor for little while after I graduated, but that was 10-11 years ago. I was completely out of practice for years. Then in 2016 I started self studying again whenever I could and I've been able to recall the stuff I learned back then and then some (namely learning more kanji).  I kind of want to get the Genki I book for completion's sake lol.  It would feel weird only having Genki II, but it might be an unnecessary expense. 

To add to this. I ended up getting both Genki books (because I am OCD like that).  But I looked through Book 2 and I'm a bit disappointed because I know all of the vocabulary already, even through the last chapter.  There was an excerpt in chapter 23 (the last chapter) that I could read without issue. I didn't get to look through all of the lessons with the different sentence structures, but thumbing through the pages I recognized a few already. Classes start July 10th so I am considering breezing through the first 3 chapters with 201's materials, so maybe I can start 202 that week.  I don't see myself needing to take a whole year to get through this book though (each session is 10 weeks 4 times per year and each session focuses on 3 chapters). So I think I'll do this textbook stuff for now but they have another class that is more about reading articles and speaking. I think I might look into that for the fall or winter or something. 

[Murieleirum]

2 hours ago, Danibellerika said:

To add to this. I ended up getting both Genki books (because I am OCD like that).  But I looked through Book 2 and I'm a bit disappointed because I know all of the vocabulary already, even through the last chapter.  There was an excerpt in chapter 23 (the last chapter) that I could read without issue. I didn't get to look through all of the lessons with the different sentence structures, but thumbing through the pages I recognized a few already. Classes start July 10th so I am considering breezing through the first 3 chapters with 201's materials, so maybe I can start 202 that week.  I don't see myself needing to take a whole year to get through this book though (each session is 10 weeks 4 times per year and each session focuses on 3 chapters). So I think I'll do this textbook stuff for now but they have another class that is more about reading articles and speaking. I think I might look into that for the fall or winter or something. 

 

This class about reading articles and speaking seems like it may suit your language needs more, since you are already familiar with so much vocabulary and so many grammar forms!  You are basically just waiting to put your skills to practice, and improve them even more! 

[Murieleirum]

3 hours ago, Hydroblade said:

I read once, and I don't remember where, sorry! That pronoun usage is discouraged, in one occasion I read that using あなた could be very impolite (and idk who I can call あなた AND who I can call 君 hahaha...) So personally I try to find a balance in both and rework my sentences so the subject can be dropped or the person I'm referring to inferred by the context,  to avoid using too much ○○○さん

 

I'd like to share a bit of my experience to bring light to the pronoun usage. These past weeks I have been trying to speak to as many Japanese natives as possible. Both orally and written, more than two of them used あなた　with me, and didn't bring up any complaint (although it's agreed that they should correct my Japanese mistakes, of any kind) when I used either あなた　or 君　with them. These are mostly older people, and we don't know eachother so we use the -masu form more often than not. 

 

So now, really, more than ever I am not sure about this pronouns thing. Maybe, since we were talking in a non-formal environment, they allowed it - and pronouns aren't suited for a work environment, or an academic environment. I guess there isn't a stigma for pronouns in every situation, but... one has to be careful? xD 

[katonice]

9 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I'd like to share a bit of my experience to bring light to the pronoun usage. These past weeks I have been trying to speak to as many Japanese natives as possible. Both orally and written, more than two of them used あなた　with me, and didn't bring up any complaint (although it's agreed that they should correct my Japanese mistakes, of any kind) when I used either あなた　or 君　with them. These are mostly older people, and we don't know eachother so we use the -masu form more often than not. 

 

So now, really, more than ever I am not sure about this pronouns thing. Maybe, since we were talking in a non-formal environment, they allowed it - and pronouns aren't suited for a work environment, or an academic environment. I guess there isn't a stigma for pronouns in every situation, but... one has to be careful? xD 

Yes, wondering the same thing. I'm using a grammar app on my phone, and it tells me you rarely ever use あなた or 君 when speaking to another person because it implies being overly familiar with them. Being too direct like that is supposedly impolite? (Not to mention it also says あなた is more often used by ladies to address their husbands, and 君 is used by males normally when speaking to women? I hope I'm remembering this correctly lol!)

I seem to remember the same concept exists in the Korean language, i.e., addressing someone in the first person is considered being too direct.

 

Do these sound about right? 

[五十嵐 美幸]

13 hours ago, Hydroblade said:

Sensei doesn't mean just "teacher" you call doctors "Sensei" too.

In the education context, "kyoushi" refers to the profession, and if you are a teacher you wouldn't say 私は○○○の先生です because iirc Sensei implies some sort of rank or something (idk how to explain it. Is just how you wouldn't introduce yourself as 私は○○○さんです) so you have to say 私は○○○の教師です. Note how 教師 has the kanji 教 which means "learning" while the word Sensei has the kanji for "previous" and "life". I've always interpreted that word from the kanji as someone with "previous" experience with "life", which makes them qualified to pass their knowledge to you. And since it's used for doctors too, well... It has the kanji for life haha so it was easy to remember.

I would like to know why it's used to address "teachers" and doctors, though...

 

And you still don't use "私は" - I know it's a habit hard to shed, but really, don't use it unless it's necessary, like in a comparison:

 

私は、新宿に行きますが、彼女は渋谷です。

 

In a case like above it's necessary to use personal pronouns to make it clear who does what, so they need to be used.

 

But if someone would just be stating they're going some place, it's just

 

仙台に行きます。

買い物に行きます。

 

(Actually it would be 行ってきます、but let's ignore verbs for now.)

 

As for 先生, that can be both a factual job description - 小学校の先生です。物理の先生です。- as well as a honorific, when addressing someone who has, as you said, more life experience, but also someone who has - or should have have - specialized knowledge. The latter then obviously applies to teachers and doctors, but it's also commonly used for lawyers and politicians (don't ask me why the last). Another group that comes to mind are writers or poets or various artists. There are more still, but I think the idea is clear. 

 

Or at least I hope so.

 

13 hours ago, Hydroblade said:

I read once, and I don't remember where, sorry! That pronoun usage is discouraged, in one occasion I read that using あなた could be very impolite (and idk who I can call あなた AND who I can call 君 hahaha...) So personally I try to find a balance in both and rework my sentences so the subject can be dropped or the person I'm referring to inferred by the context,  to avoid using too much ○○○さん

 

Please, do not call any Japanese あなた if you mean express the equivalent of the English you (and it's equivalents in other western languages.) Seriously. 

 

あなた is how partners address each other. It's that and only that, with possibly exceptions of faddish high school students usage, which is beyond my knowledge and changes every few month or so anyway.

 

君 is a word reserved for male use - again, high school student language use might be a different issue - commonly between males. It's often used as a "dominant" language term, that is, someone "superior" - older, higher rank etc - addressing someone "inferior" - younger, subordinate - and in that sense some men address women that way, like サラリマン to office lady - but that use is fading. 

 

It should not ever be used from younger to elder etc.

 

Of course, as foreigner in Japan one can get away with lots of blunders, but better to try to avoid them.

[Hydroblade]

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

And you still don't use "私は" - I know it's a habit hard to shed, but really, don't use it unless it's necessary

Haha this too. I try not to use it because it sounds repetitive and because it's not really necessaru right? As long as you make clear who or what you are talking about.

If you don't specify, like in your sentences, then it's assumed you're talking about yourself?

 

About the usage of "you" then, using the name you use to call the person is accepted, right? But what about if you want to address various things about the person? Like saying "You are so and so. And i like this and that about you" Having the word "and" makes me think of そして but i feel like it wouldn't fit right...

[五十嵐 美幸]

10 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I'd like to share a bit of my experience to bring light to the pronoun usage. These past weeks I have been trying to speak to as many Japanese natives as possible. Both orally and written, more than two of them used あなた　with me, and didn't bring up any complaint (although it's agreed that they should correct my Japanese mistakes, of any kind) when I used either あなた　or 君　with them. These are mostly older people, and we don't know eachother so we use the -masu form more often than not. 

 

So now, really, more than ever I am not sure about this pronouns thing. Maybe, since we were talking in a non-formal environment, they allowed it - and pronouns aren't suited for a work environment, or an academic environment. I guess there isn't a stigma for pronouns in every situation, but... one has to be careful? xD 

 

36 minutes ago, katonice said:

Yes, wondering the same thing. I'm using a grammar app on my phone, and it tells me you rarely ever use あなた or 君 when speaking to another person because it implies being overly familiar with them. Being too direct like that is supposedly impolite? (Not to mention it also says あなた is more often used by ladies to address their husbands, and 君 is used by males normally when speaking to women? I hope I'm remembering this correctly lol!)

I seem to remember the same concept exists in the Korean language, i.e., addressing someone in the first person is considered being too direct.

 

Do these sound about right? 

 

The reason Japanese do not correct foreigners on the あなた usage - and in fact don't like to correct anything really - is cultural, really.

 

Partly it's, I understand what you're saying so it's okay - based on the ingrained assumption that no foreigner can learn to speak Japanese correctly anyway - another is that to correct someone is to make them lose face while presuming oneself's superiority which is against the 和/harmony principle.

 

Of course there's also some people who don't follow social norms or come from cultural subgroups with different socialization - 2 and 3 generation Korean Japanese in particular come to mind in particular - but there are misfits everywhere...