Flexibility Issue (vs jumps)

[Fay]

It was quite enlightening to learn @Fresca's opinion about Jason's and Yuzu's flexibility. To sum it up, Yuzu has a fantastic flexibility in the hips and back, whereas Jason has god a tremendous flexibility in the  legs. I think we could also compare more skaters - Martinez, Kolyada, Vasilievs or whoever comes into your mind.

As one example of different kinds of flexibility, I can remember Yulia Lipnitskaya who's very stretched and can raise her leg up to incredible heights. She's also very flexible in her lower back. But her turnout isn't so impressive, if I remember it right.

 

It would be furthermore interesting to hear opinions whether flexible skaters could be good jumpers. Alexei Mishin once said about the younger Yuzuru that he often messed up his jumps because he was so flexible (worm-like, as Mishin said). Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, on the other hand, was handpicked because she had an ideal figure for good jumps. When she's on, her jumps are fantastic, but she's got to be among the least flexible skaters among women. So is Yuzu so unique in being able to combine excellent jumps and outstanding flexibility?

[breadstal]

I'm not sure if it's about being flexible or just lacking muscles + bad technique [talking about jumps] but if Mishin is saying it, I guess he may be right  And it's pretty true that best ladies jumpers didn't have the best flexibility (like Liza, Yuna). I think Yuzu has just perfect body for figure skating. 

[xeyra]

4 minutes ago, breadstal said:

I'm not sure if it's about being flexible or just lacking muscles + bad technique [talking about jumps] but if Mishin is saying it, I guess he may be right  And it's pretty true that best ladies jumpers didn't have the best flexibity (like Liza, Yuna). I think Yuzu has just perfect body for figure skating. 

 

Carol Lane(?) from CBC said basically the same thing at the 2016 GPF. 

[Yatagarasu]

Yes, Mishin said this:

 

Quote

Q: Why isn’t she more flexible and does not spin more quickly?
A: The more flexible the figure skater is, the worse are his jumps. That is the law of biomechanics of the body. The more flexible you are, the bigger is the range of motions in your joints. That’s why Yuzuru Hanyu falls so often, by the way. That’s because of the wormlike structure of his body.

x

 

I don't actually agree with that because we've had really flexible skaters who were great jumpers, apart from Yuzuru (aside the falls so often thing, because I don't think it's true anyway), like for example Plushenko. You cannot skip him over in this discussion.

[breadstal]

24 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Carol Lane(?) from CBC said basically the same thing at the 2016 GPF. 

Love how she said it so beautifully, I agree with her 

[Fay]

37 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Yes, Mishin said this:

 

x

 

I don't actually agree with that because we've had really flexible skaters who were great jumpers, apart from Yuzuru (aside the falls so often thing, because I don't think it's true anyway), like for example Plushenko. You cannot skip him over in this discussion.

 

Plushenko is an interesting case - he wanted to have that bielman, so he made his mum stretch him everyday until he got one when he was very young - but still had to give it up at 22. But his sit spin was... not so good, as far as I remember.

[itiahs]

This is totally a layman's observation but Plushenko and Kolyada's biellmanns looks like they don't have enough shoulder flexibility. MCM and Yuzu's look different. I remember Johnny Weir commenting once that the biellmann requires shoulder flexibility as well?

[EisElle]

44 minutes ago, itiahs said:

I remember Johnny Weir commenting once that the biellmann requires shoulder flexibility as well?

Yes he commented briefly about that in GPF 2014

[Fresca]

I don't agree with this at all. The more flexible you are, the bigger the range of movement in your joints, it's true. But if you can control the movement of your joints using your muscles, if you have the technique to know how to use such range of movement properly, then you can have both. If you look at gymnasts, dancers or martial artists where flexibility is a must, the best don't sacrifice their flexibility to execute the difficult elements which require the most control. For example, here is Ivan Vasiliev doing double revoltades (doesn't it look like an axel jump with tano? ). Or Farukh Ruzimatov doing jete cloche en tournant (a jump with a scissor split followed by a turn in the air).

 

Perhaps I'm being too pessimistic but it sounds to me like Mishin is making excuses.

 

 

 

 

[ralucutzagy]

What about this for back flexibility! 

source: twitter.com/momokichi

[ralucutzagy]

Like a ballerina ... 

source:twitter.com/keijiyuzu1207

[SparkleSalad]

I have hypermobile joints and have been through a lot of pain and injury because of it, and that's just from daily living. I had to abandon dance after 10 years when I hit puberty because my joints just weren't having it. I'm a generation above the skaters we're talking about and when my troubles started there wasn't really much knowledge about what was causing my problems and how to deal with it (there still isn't.) 

 

It's absolutely essential for naturally flexible people to build strong muscles to stabilise their joints. Yuzuru said in his interview with Shizuka that he had to be careful when he was younger because the risk of injury for someone as flexible as him was a lot higher. I think men have a much better time than women maintaining stability and reducing their risk of injury because they're more muscular to begin with. 

 

I'm partly such a huge fan because I like watching someone succeed where I kuyashiied.

[SparkleSalad]

On 17/05/2017 at 04:21, Fay said:

 

Plushenko is an interesting case - he wanted to have that bielman, so he made his mum stretch him everyday until he got one when he was very young - but still had to give it up at 22. But his sit spin was... not so good, as far as I remember.

 

I have friend who trained in Russia as a gymnast when she was young. One day they just took the kids and forced them into splits. No gradual natural stretching, just *SNAP*. They do this with sumo wrestlers in Japan and I've seen the same in documentaries on gymnastics and kung fu schools in China.

 

So I think there's a difference with naturally, genetically flexible people and those who have worked at or had flexibility forced upon them. 

[ralucutzagy]

13 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

I have friend who trained in Russia as a gymnast when she was young. One day they just took the kids and forced them into splits. No gradual natural stretching, just *SNAP*. They do this with sumo wrestlers in Japan and I've seen the same in documentaries on gymnastics and kung fu schools in China.

 

So I think there's a difference with naturally, genetically flexible people and those who have worked at or had flexibility forced upon them. 

Ugh ...This is kinda scary! I mean, it's safe to do something like this to a kid? What if they broke something?!

[SparkleSalad]

13 minutes ago, ralucutzagy said:

Ugh ...This is kinda scary! I mean, it's safe to do something like this to a kid? What if they broke something?!

 

In Australia it would definitely be classified as child abuse. They go around in considerable pain for weeks afterwards but after that they have the splits for life. I'd never do that to a child but from what my friend said of the Russian training, that wasn't the only awful thing they did (creepy coaches and now what everyone knows about drugs for Olympic athletes.)

 

But that's super off topic.