General Yuzuru Chat

[LourdesMoon]

2 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

That question goes to the core of "what is the job of a figure skating commentator?" Is it really the commentator's job to tell the viewers about every little or big flaw in every single program, by every skater? Can you imagine what that would be like?  "Up next is Yuri Katsuki, who hasn't been able to do a clean program to save his life for the last two years. The reason being, ( whole bunch of nitpicky negative stuff). But he keeps on landing in the top five because the judges are all biased or paid off by his coach. I sure hope he doesn't screw it up this time." Seriously, no one would watch anymore and all the skaters would feel like killing themselves! 

 

In order words, no matter what Kurt's actual opinion of the judging is, he's never going to say it on air if he disagrees with it. But pay attention to all the times he says he agrees with the judges instead.

 

 

 

 

I don't think they should list every flaw, but I remember when Alina Zagitova did her LP at Cup of China last year before Olympics. Kurt mentioned her under-rotations and how ladies often cheat some of their jumps and that judging would be harsher on that going forward, yet they still had time to praise certain parts of the program for being smart and capitalizing on points strategically. I would love if they could do that more often for all disciplines. That's what I meant. But CBC is the commentators I turn to the most so I'm not saying they are the worst by any means. They are more balanced, but they could be even better is all I'm saying. 

[LourdesMoon]

2 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I watch CBC all the time and I have not noticed any increase in praise for Nathan beyond the fact the he did win World's. And since he has won World's twice, it would be weird if they didn't talk about him. 

 

I'll have to disagree with you there. They are implying Nathan has the full package now, that his program components have improved (they have but not to the level of marks he is receiving) and that his strength lies in his GOE (which arguably is only because of the misuse of the new system), which is different then simply praising the two-time World Champion. But this Nathan narrative is problem for almost all commentators now, because it's what sells, so I can't blame them for going in that direction. 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 minute ago, LourdesMoon said:

 

I don't think they should list every flaw, but I remember when Alina Zagitova did her LP at Cup of China last year before Olympics. Kurt mentioned her under-rotations and how ladies often cheat some of their jumps and that judging would be harsher on that going forward, yet they still had time to praise certain parts of the program for being smart and capitalizing on points strategically. I would love if they could do that more often for all disciplines. That's what I meant. But CBC is the commentators I turn to the most so I'm not saying they are the worst by any means. They are more balanced, but they could be even better is all I'm saying. 

Well on that front, I agree that they could do more, but I also feel that they're in a position where their options are limited. The best thing they can do is highlight all the times ISU gets it right and the scoring is fair, while pointedly withholding comment when the scoring is not fair. 

[rockstaryuzu]

2 minutes ago, LourdesMoon said:

 

I'll have to disagree with you there. They are implying Nathan has the full package now, that his program components have improved (they have but not to the level of marks he is receiving) and that his strength lies in his GOE (which arguably is only because of the misuse of the new system), which is different then simply praising the two-time World Champion. But this Nathan narrative is problem for almost all commentators now, because it's what sells, so I can't blame them for going in that direction. 

I think it's a case of them having to say something that sounds reasonably logical to explain his rise. 

[LourdesMoon]

1 minute ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I think it's a case of them having to say something that sounds reasonably logical to explain his rise. 

 

I hate to admit that is probably the case...but it's very frustrating as a long-time fan and viewer to know it's not ALL true. I understand the logic behind it though, even if I vehemently disagree and feel that it's not their honest opinions. 

[eagle]

25 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I watch CBC all the time and I have not noticed any increase in praise for Nathan beyond the fact the he did win World's. And since he has won World's twice, it would be weird if they didn't talk about him. 

 

I have watched CBC 2019 Worlds for Yuzuru & Nathan's programs on youtube. And 2019 WTT for Nathan and Vincent. The praises towards Nathan has increased compared to previous years. Like Nathan suddenly improved his skating skills, transitions dramatically.

I havent watched the recap thing that LordesMoon is talking abt.

 

 

[LourdesMoon]

2 minutes ago, eagle said:

 

I have watched CBC 2019 for Yuzuru & Nathan on youtube. The praises towards Nathan has increased compared to previous years. Like Nathan suddenly improved his skating skills, transitions dramatically.

I havent watched the recap thing that LordesMoon is talking abt.

 

 

 

 

Here's the link if you're ever curious. They don't talk about Nathan here too much but more about Shoma and Vincent. A few seconds on Yuzu lol. 

[hoodie axel]

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

By giving VERY generous PCS and GOEs to Nathan AND Vincent Zhou for 2019 WC. If it's just Nathan, ok fine they are continuing the momentum from before 2018 OG. Nathan AND Vincent very generous PCS, GOEs, sthing's up. 

And what is up? Did you see how generous the judging was in the entirety of Worlds 2019, how barely any UR or edge call was handed throughout the singles events? How the skaters better than Zhou (Jin, Uno, Kolyada) skated at least one program poorly, and how that shifts the momentum? Or how Zhou was placed below both Jin and Uno in 4CCs, despite neither of them being entirely clean?

This hardly explains how the ISU has "dumped the Asian skaters in favour of the US" anyway. That imbalance has always existed, and I've not disagreed with its existence. I have even spoken out about it on this website. Considering only what confirms your theory isn't a great way of going about things, however, nor is confusing "being able to have a cushion and political power" with "they want this Asian skater out".

 

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

2nd , the narrative among the North America media like Canada's CBC has shifted to praising Nathan.

They kind of haven't.

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

AND....and, the newly elected athlete rep Eric Bradford defending Nathan, saying that GOE is subjective. The athlete rep saying that. <facepalm>

This proves exactly nothing, except for how the ISU will try to defend its own decisions, like it always has.

 

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

Lastly, some of us have been thru the Patrick Chan score inflation.

 

He still won WC despite falls, despite his closest rival giving a stellar performance. There was 1 year where many fans believe Daisuke Takahashi should have won WC instead of Patrick.

Yes, been there, too.

 

Chan was already considered the best skater at that point due to his skating skills and the ability to deliver two quads in an LP (in 2011 worlds, for example). He was already considered the best. Has there been any shift of the title of the "best" being handed to Chen I wasn't aware of? All you have is ONE point of data: 2019 Worlds where Hanyu wasn't stellar in the SP compared to Chen, and the skaters considered better than Zhou didn't deliver well, because even you haven't cited the joke event of WTT19 (where of the three contenders in men, Uno bombed hard and would hardly deserve huge GOE and PCS).

 

But, hey, let's take that into consideration. Takahashi was called UR (unfairly, IMO) on one of his jumps in the SP. Hanyu singled a jump in the SP. Chan went "clean" enough for the judges, allowing him to have his momentum in the LP. He made mistakes in the LP but jumped two quads (for three in total), and won it on PCS + SP lead. What does that tell you?

 

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

Another Asian, Boyang Jin (as stated by Max Ambesi) never got +3 under the old system for his textbook 4Lutz. In fact, Boyang at times has gotten lower GOE for better quality jumps. But then, Boyang is from an even smaller fed than Japan.

He got very close to it in 4CC 2018. Not all of his attempts have deserved full GOE, and he's never been able to build his momentum like the others have to get a freebie. But this is a pointless argument in what we are discussing, as again, I haven't denied that Asian skaters have it harder. The point, again, is if Hanyu has been replaced as number one in the judges eyes, which is what would really affect him if both he and Chen were clean in the same competition.

 

Chen is seen as number two now. This exact same inflation happened with Hanyu in the season leading up to Sochi, as he built his momentum and beat Chan in the GPF. No one cared about it, because Hanyu was a better skater than Chan at that point (and frankly should have been number one in the judges' eyes, although his LP sucked). This inflation, and setting up contenders to the "reigning champion" has always been a part of the sport. I do not believe that Hanyu will be replaced in the judges' eyes till he competes a full season against Chen and loses the GPF AND the Worlds to him (or sits out the GPF and loses worlds again, or sits out the season entirely). He is clearly superior. What happened in worlds 2019 was simply momentum-based, as far as I can say.

52 minutes ago, eagle said:

They are lining up everything to push forth their agenda, in a pretty obvious way too.

Not obvious for me, but it is what it is.

[Fay]

Guys, have you mistaken this thread for General Skating Chat? 

[eagle]

1 hour ago, freyaminnie said:

 

 

Imagine if there's another American who could quads AND white. They would drop Nathan instantly. 

 

I wouldnt go so far to say that they will drop Nathan. As long as the athlete represent USA. 

 

Having seen back then how Shen/Zhou had to pander to the western judges taste, the kind of music and expression that is understood by the judges

 

If I remember correctly, Shen Yi received a lot of flak among China fans for being more sensual/sexy in her performance.

Shen/Zhao I think were the 2010 OG champ in pairs, 1st Asians I think.

 

[LourdesMoon]

6 minutes ago, Fay said:

Guys, have you mistaken this thread for General Skating Chat? 

 

Sorry! I think one comment just led to another on my part! Will move it over next time LOL

[Xen]

Guys, echoing Fay, what you guys are discussing might be better sent to Gen Skating chat, where we debate more about narratives.

 

And IMO, the momentum was going for Chen even heading into Olys 2018, sorry. It won't go down, because it's in ISU's interest to keep USfed (and money) engaged, so politically the hype won't go down. On the other hand, if there's any guy who could go back up in terms of momentum, once he heals up, it's Yuzu. From the way he worded things, that 4A is no longer a dream, I have my suspicions the boy has landed Nessie in practice enough times, just not at the ratio to bring it to a program, or maybe he held back due to injury. I also suspect he has 4Lz back too, but injury derailed him (if you follow the documentary, he actually listed 4A or 4Lz or 4Lo).

[hoodie axel]

14 minutes ago, Xen said:

And IMO, the momentum was going for Chen even heading into Olys 2018, sorry.

I agree here, he had a full uninhibited season then, too. Had Chen gone clean, likely they would have gone for him (a la Sotnikova at Sochi, or even Zagitova at PC), and that would have killed Yuzuru's standing. But, it didn't happen, and winning worlds after a season of having the two-time OGM injured and not having a good SP while still delivering a good LP isn't the same on any level. Chen WILL have a bigger boost next season based off the two world titles, though.

[eagle]

2 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

And what is up? Did you see how generous the judging was in the entirety of Worlds 2019, how barely any UR or edge call was handed throughout the singles events? How the skaters better than Zhou (Jin, Uno, Kolyada) skated at least one program poorly, and how that shifts the momentum? Or how Zhou was placed below both Jin and Uno in 4CCs, despite neither of them being entirely clean?

This hardly explains how the ISU has "dumped the Asian skaters in favour of the US" anyway. That imbalance has always existed, and I've not disagreed with its existence. I have even spoken out about it on this website. Considering only what confirms your theory isn't a great way of going about things, however, nor is confusing "being able to have a cushion and political power" with "they want this Asian skater out".

 

The point  again, is if Hanyu has been replaced as number one in the judges eyes, which is what would really affect him if both he and Chen were clean in the same competition.

 

Chen is seen as number two now. This exact same inflation happened with Hanyu in the season leading up to Sochi, as he built his momentum and beat Chan in the GPF. No one cared about it, because Hanyu was a better skater than Chan at that point (and frankly should have been number one in the judges' eyes, although his LP sucked). This inflation, and setting up contenders to the "reigning champion" has always been a part of the sport. I do not believe that Hanyu will be replaced in the judges' eyes till he competes a full season against Chen and loses the GPF AND the Worlds to him (or sits out the GPF and loses worlds again, or sits out the season entirely). He is clearly superior. What happened in worlds 2019 was simply momentum-based, as far as I can say.

Not obvious for me, but it is what it is.

As far I'm concerned, in the eyes of ISU & most of the judges, they want Nathan to be no 1.

Yuzuru dont get brownie points for being 2X OG champ, they want him to retire so they can move on to the next champ. Such  message should be blatantly obvious to all.

 

As long as Nathan just does reasonably well, clean skate, do multiple quads, he's the hyped one. 

 

Which is something that dont happen with other sports I follow. In fact, two 2X OG champs, (at age 30, 35) will be competing in 2020 Summer OG. 

There is difference in how their world governing body treats/appeciates their 2X OG champ & how ISU treats Yuzuru.

 

 

 

[Yuzurella]

Oh, I haven't seen this one before!