General Yuzuru Chat

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, micaelis said:

To those who corrected me on the 'no sparkles' issue, I concede.  I went to images of those costumes but they weren't close enough for me to see.  Mea culpa.

Tbh, I'm not sure you're entirely wrong... I think at least one of the H,ILY costumes was sparkle-free...but then it did have shiny black patent leather pants so, still shiny...

 

IMO, Hanyu's the type of person who would look sparkly even if he wasn't wearing any. He'd sparkle even in a burlap sack I think.

[moonkat]

7 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Even after looking up the definition in dictionaries, at the end of the day, I feel the definition of fey is still something that is open to interpretation. I don't think I'm wrong to find Hanyu's skating style fey. But I also don't think those who find Weir's style more suitable for the term wrong either, even though his style doesn't particularly fit my notion of the term.

 

And I'm aware that gender identification isn't something quite so simple for some but as far as Hanyu goes, he's pretty firmly in the male territory. And I'm not stating this as an opinion. So firm, I genuinely don't think it really garners this whole debate of gender identity. Which is always complicated and sensitive. I really don't think it has much to do with Hanyu himself.

 

His orientation has absolutely no bearing on what's being discussed here and would only serve to derail the topic at hand so let's not bring that into the discussion. Not that it's even up for one since that is entirely his own business.

Oh right, this discussion was over alpha male term.

Okay yes, you were talking about traditional masculine and feminine behavior, where macho is masculine and soft is feminine?

 

 

[moonkat]

1 minute ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Tbh, I'm not sure you're entirely wrong... I think at least one of the H,ILY costumes was sparkle-free...but then it did have shiny black patent leather pants so, still shiny...

 

IMO, Hanyu's the type of person who would look sparkly even if he wasn't wearing any. He'd sparkle even in a burlap sack I think.

We would see the sparkle in our mind thinking it is supposed to be there.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

20 分, moonkatさんが言いました:

Oh right, this discussion was over alpha male term.

Okay yes, you were talking about traditional masculine and feminine behavior, where macho is masculine and soft is feminine?

 

 

 

By traditional and established concepts, yeah, for the sake of keeping things simple and tidy to establish an order, which I believe is really just a base from which we build on as society continues to evolve, and not a final outcome to be imposed on any and all situations. So this in no way means that each of the two don't have elements of the other because they almost always do.

[rockstaryuzu]

40 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Hanyu goes, he's pretty firmly in the male territory. 

I'm agreeing with you, and going one further, in that, as I've said before, I think him being that person is exactly what enables him to portray what he does on the ice, and also what allows him to share his emotions as part of the performance and in interviews, with his skater friends, etc. I'd even go so far as to say he's a great example of what modern, positive masculinity can be, but if I say that, then I'm delving into gender politics and getting a bit too heavy for this forum I think.

 

Regarding the term 'fey'  - the first time I ever saw the word, it was being used in a book I was reading to describe someone who had the power of 'second sight' - i.e. could see prophetic visions. So for me the term has overtones of 'unnaturalness'. And I find Yuzu to be very natural * in his performances, so that's why it doesn't feel like a good fit to me. 

 

*Natural for him. I'm pretty sure half the jumps and steps he does would never come naturally to anyone else... I still feel sorry for Mura...

 

[anirien]

15 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Regarding the term 'fey'  - the first time I ever saw the word, it was being used in a book I was reading to describe someone who had the power of 'second sight' - i.e. could see prophetic visions. So for me the term has overtones of 'unnaturalness'. And I find Yuzu to be very natural * in his performances, so that's why it doesn't feel like a good fit to me. 

 

Fey as a term derives form Fae or Fairies. So there is an association with folk lore of supernatural, mystical creatures and powers. A lot of fantasy stories use it in that context. But in a modern, Western, context calling someone "fey" implies their behavior is overtly both feminine and stereotypically gay. I would say generally this gets used as a negative term by people who are hostile to or uncomfortable with the LGBTQ community, especially with men whose gender expression is too feminine for their comfort. If someone from the LGBTQ community were to describe themselves as "fey" it's one thing, but I would be careful about using that term to describe Yuzu's performance or to describe the general behavior of any individual as it's a term that has a potentially insulting connotation. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

2 分, anirienさんが言いました:

 

Fey as a term derives form Fae or Fairies. So there is an association with folk lore of supernatural, mystical creatures and powers. A lot of fantasy stories use it in that context. But in a modern, Western, context calling someone "fey" implies their behavior is overtly both feminine and stereotypically gay. I would say generally this gets used as a negative term by people who are hostile to or uncomfortable with the LGBTQ community, especially with men whose gender expression is too feminine for their comfort. If someone from the LGBTQ community were to describe themselves as "fey" it's one thing, but I would be careful about using that term to describe Yuzu's performance or to describe the general behavior of any individual as it's a term that has a potentially insulting connotation. 

 

I associate it with the former, although I'm aware that it also means the latter. I use the term while fully aware of both its meanings but I found the original definition so painfully accurate despite other terms I could use, I decided to chance it and stick to it. :)) 

[vanadiezz]

1 hour ago, micaelis said:

To those who corrected me on the 'no sparkles' issue, I concede.  I went to images of those costumes but they weren't close enough for me to see.  Mea culpa.

 

I am not that familiar about POTO but my memory also remembers the costume as less sparkly. As for PW, TBF the blings can easier seen in videos compared to images since it is quite hidden. 

[ralucutzagy]

For those who can't remember, Yuzu's totally gorgeous POTO costume, v2! 

source: http://www.insideskating.net/2015/07/29/events/the-mens-event-at-2015-worlds-when-stars-collide

[SweetSakura]

4 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I said he is an alpha male because he is an alpha-type male. Alpha type for wanting to be on top when it comes to being the best. Which can apply to the female population as well. And I say male because of his very obvious masculinity, based on the fact that he identifies as male and acts like one, up to and including the times when he does effeminate stuff. When he does it, it all shouts male to me still because he isn't effeminate in the sense Weir is effeminate but also isn't afraid to show behavior that people who can't seem to think outside of the box wouldn't consider as masculine. That's it. My standpoint is a neutral one. 

 

Thanks for expressing your thoughts on this subject so articulately. I think you have been very clear. I just wanted to add that your perceptions of Yuzu being alpha-male-type are not concocted out of thin air and that I've come across statements attributed to Daisuke Takahashi implying the same thing. 

 

In one instance, Takahashi called himself a "herbivore" and Yuzu a "carnivore." (https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36246-Daisuke-Takahashi/page108) Many of us might be familiar with Japanese usage of herbivore and carnivore, but to add to it, I've also heard the two terms described by a Japanese friend as meaning "beta-male" and "alpha-male." In another quote (not sure if from the same interview), Takahashi states that Yuzu's personality is "maybe the most manly of us all," after saying that Yuzu's personality is not at all like his appearance, lol.  

 

So your observations have also been noticed by at least 1 fellow competitor of Yuzu. 😀 I remember watching my first documentary on Yuzu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhKvqS5gOq4&t=889s) and being just struck by this intense alpha-male, need-to-dominate-and-overpower-the-competition drive within Yuzu. Of course this is not to say that being competitive, dominant, and ambitious is an exclusively male domain. But in watching Yuzu's particular brand of competitiveness, phrases that kept coming to my mind for capturing the essence of Yuzu's mindset were "testosterone-fueled," and "Bring it on!" It reminded me a lot of Plushenko, but whereas Plushenko's competitive nature was more overt and external, Yuzu's manifests itself through his very personality not not necessarily through "macho" displays on the rink. 

 

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this fascinating topic and discussion. I would say that by acknowledging Yuzu's alpha male side, that I'm not trying to moderate or downplay his more feminine qualities, which are undeniably there. But just as we note that Yuzu has a more delicate and feminine side (e.g. in some mannerisms or performance style or physical features) I think we can also acknowledge the alpha-male aspect to his personality. People are complex and multi-faceted creatures, and I think Yuzu's ability to embrace so many different qualities is also what makes him so fascinating. 😄 

 

 

[Gaby]

3 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Hmmm...because I don't deny that those who were debating had some interesting points, I'm going to actually start one:

 

Cultural differences aside,  I'm in fact very puzzled as to why some people here are so resistant and uncomfortable about the idea of Hanyu being conformed as male because that's very clearly what he is, *despite* all the softness he has that coexists with the steel that is his core. It's making me think that these people are the ones trapped in the very box they are trying so hard to not be in. What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? Why does him identifying as a masculine male and him having a soft side have to be mutually exclusive?Just because he has a soft side to him doesn't have to mean he is somewhere in between. Femininity doesn't belong only to females, just as masculinity doesn't belong solely to males. I get that you're trying not to label the guy but don't you see that that's just another way of labeling someone? *scratches head*

 

Thing is, if you're merely talking about his more delicate programs and feathery skating style, then I get it, but if you're talking about his overall personality, that's where I'm stumped. I mean you've seen the way the guy carries himself most of the time. The guy is physically male and carries himself like one. Just because he turns soft and cutesy sometimes, why is he suddenly neither the way Weir seems to be neither? He walks and talks like a pretty typical dude most of the time. And I'm stating this as fact. Even his cutesiness doesn't necessarily have to be a feminine trait. It simply comes across as child-like to me, and doesn't necessarily conform to one gender. 

 

And why do people automatically jump to the conclusion that I'm discounting dominant females when I was simply talking about Hanyu coming across as an unmistakably dominant male to me? What has one got to do with another? I am genuinely curious. 

 

Yes, this time, I'm actually asking for it so for those who wish to discuss the issue, have at it. =D

You  hit the nail right  on the  head with this ,  you've  found  the  best  possible  words  to the  thought  that has been ranging  in the  backyard  of my  consciousness  since the start  of  this discussion , but  which  I was  reluctant  to  express  because  I  couldn't  have  said  it  in English  better  to save  my  life .  Heck , even in  my  mother  tongue  I  wouldn't be  able   to wrap this  thought    into    right  words .

 

[anirien]

I never quite got the costume in how it related to Phantom exactly, but it's still on of my favorite of his competitive costumes. And I appreciate the non-traditional take.  

 

(How long before I graduate from Mushroom? )

[SydneyH]

2 minutes ago, anirien said:

I never quite got the costume in how it related to Phantom exactly, but it's still on of my favorite of his competitive costumes. And I appreciate the non-traditional take.  

 

(How long before I graduate from Mushroom? )

well you have to accord them that it was a 'gosh we only have 3 weeks to come out with a new costume , holy s...' situation , so well I think it went quite well at the end .

[sweetwater]

The sparkles on PW costume are not so hidden...
(Photos taken in Madame Tussauds Tokyo)

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[anirien]

23 minutes ago, SydneyH said:

well you have to accord them that it was a 'gosh we only have 3 weeks to come out with a new costume , holy s...' situation , so well I think it went quite well at the end .

 

Was it though? I thought the one he wore at Cup of Disaster was a placeholder for the later costume. Wasn't the CoD costume basically a retrofitted version of an costume from another skater?