General Yuzuru Chat

[micaelis]

17 minutes ago, skateIT said:

In the season before Yuzu moved to TCC, he won a GP, got 4th in his first GPF as a 16 yr old (maybe just turned 17, can't find the date of '11 GPF), bronze at his first sr national championship and bronze at the 2012 World Championships. He was still very young and had a lot of growing to do but I think he had already entered the ranks of the elite so to speak. 

I think any differences here are more a matter of what qualifies as 'elite'.  For me being in the elite is being one of the few skaters who are automatically expected to reach the podium in any competition in which they are entered.  For me Yuzu attained that position, and in spectacular fashion, in his breakout season of 2013/14 when he took gold at the GPF, the Sochi Olympics and the World Championships.  From that time on he was the one to beat in men's skating.  Before  that, in analyzing the comments of a wide variety of commentators before that season when dealing with Yuzu I had the distinct impression that he was widely seen as up-and-coming but he was still not automatically amongst the expected contenders.  They realized that he might be podium possible but they weren't expecting a medal for him.  When he achieved the recognition that a podium position was assumed likely then he entered the 'elite' as I define it.  Once he achieved that status then any time he failed to medal he was seen as giving a disappointing performance (witness NHK 2014).  I realize that the difference here is basically semantic and I was not into figure-skating back then so my analysis is derived from parsing the discussions of Yuzu by various commentators in broadcasts at the time.  In any case with Zhenya and Boyang we are dealing with skaters who are expected to medal in any competition they enter which, as I see it, is quite different from Yuzu's situation when he arrived at TCC in 2012.  As far as the men are concerned today amongst those still planning to compete this next season, the ranks of the elite consist of Yuzuru Hanyu, Shoma Uno, Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen.  Mikhail Kolyada and Dmitri Alliev are just outside that group and could enter the ranks dependent on how they do this season.  I thought Mikhail might have made it last season but his poor Olympic performance (as opposed to expectations) denied him that status, in my view.

[LucyH]

2 minutes ago, skateIT said:

In the season before Yuzu moved to TCC, he won a GP, got 4th in his first GPF as a 16 yr old (maybe just turned 17, can't find the date of '11 GPF), bronze at his first sr national championship and bronze at the 2012 World Championships. He was still very young and had a lot of growing to do but I think he had already entered the ranks of the elite so to speak. 

I would agree that with you  that Yuzu when came to Brian was just as accomplished as Javi (i.e. GP finishes and had a world podium whereas Javi did not). Because of this and the issues that Javi had with Morozov (don't even get me started on that creeper!) when he took on Florent, Brian made it a point to consult with Javi before saying yes to Yuzu. The very valid reasons were: a) He and Javi had just started their partnership and Javi showed some marked improvement in results, b) the trust was not all fully there between them and he didn't want Javi to think that he was taking on someone and abandoning him, c) Javi was not a newbie but he really wasn't a perennial medal threat either, d) TCC / Brian was at a different level where they had just lost Yuna and Adam and he didn't want to rock the boat with Javi. The situation with Yuzu and Jin / Brown / Medvedeva is different because a) Yuzu is undoubtedly the alpha dog at TCC whether they say it or not, he is their #1 priority until he decides that he is done competing, b) Yuzu doesn't have the emotional baggage that Javi had when Yuzu came, c) I think Yuzu has reached a point where he doesn't necessarily need Brian all the time now vs. the situation with Javi when Yuzu came. My thoughts about Brian bringing Jin are as follows: a) Having Jin there will provide a challenge for Yuzu and we know how much that boy loves a challenge. I think it'll be pretty clear in the next season or so whether Yuzu wants to continue and target 2022. b) Brian is covering all the bases, he wants to ensure the continued success of TCC so he needs more than one horse in the race so to speak. By adding Jin he has two legitimate contenders for GP's and World's and possibly 2022 if Yuzu continues and if he doesn't then hopefully by that time Jin will have developed as a skater will be his lead horse for OGM. I think it'll work out in the end - undoubtedly there may be issues with those egos in one place that will need to be managed but TCC are really good with people management. Yuzu, Evgenia and Jin will get Brian as their primary coach and have others on the team come in as required i.e. Tracy for SS for Jin and Evgenia. Ghislain will continue to work with them for jumps. The interesting one is that Brian did not name check Ghislain for Jason. I think Ghislain is being reserved to help Yuzu as he gets his quads back and perhaps tries 4A and also to help with Evgenia's jump technique.I doubt the skaters will even see much of each other except maybe for the stroking classes and certain practices. Wow this was LONG... 

[asiacheetah]

29 minutes ago, micaelis said:

I think any differences here are more a matter of what qualifies as 'elite'.  For me being in the elite is being one of the few skaters who are automatically expected to reach the podium in any competition in which they are entered.  For me Yuzu attained that position, and in spectacular fashion, in his breakout season of 2013/14 when he took gold at the GPF, the Sochi Olympics and the World Championships.  From that time on he was the one to beat in men's skating.  Before  that, in analyzing the comments of a wide variety of commentators before that season when dealing with Yuzu I had the distinct impression that he was widely seen as up-and-coming but he was still not automatically amongst the expected contenders.  They realized that he might be podium possible but they weren't expecting a medal for him.  When he achieved the recognition that a podium position was assumed likely then he entered the 'elite' as I define it.  Once he achieved that status then any time he failed to medal he was seen as giving a disappointing performance (witness NHK 2014).  I realize that the difference here is basically semantic and I was not into figure-skating back then so my analysis is derived from parsing the discussions of Yuzu by various commentators in broadcasts at the time.  In any case with Zhenya and Boyang we are dealing with skaters who are expected to medal in any competition they enter which, as I see it, is quite different from Yuzu's situation when he arrived at TCC in 2012.  As far as the men are concerned today amongst those still planning to compete this next season, the ranks of the elite consist of Yuzuru Hanyu, Shoma Uno, Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen.  Mikhail Kolyada and Dmitri Alliev are just outside that group and could enter the ranks dependent on how they do this season.  I thought Mikhail might have made it last season but his poor Olympic performance (as opposed to expectations) denied him that status, in my view.

By that definition, I don't think Boyang's reached it yet solely for the fact there are so many skaters right now (SQUAD) that could podium in whichever order. I don't get the sense that Boyang is "expected" to podium by the commentators if the entire SQUAD is there. Evgenia is expected to win every event due to her consistency.

 

I do agree though that Yuzu wasn't quite elite level when he moved to TCC, but he reached that level within 2 years.

[Cerunias]

58 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

...but he reached that level within 2 years.

 

As Orser has said a number of times regarding his athletes, you don't see results immediately when he gets new athletes, but rather, only after about 18 months. For example, in the case of Yuzuru, Orser himself has said that although he got good foundations from Abe, he tended to skate a bit fast and loose and so they started from those foundations again and worked their way up. Orser himself has also described his coaching principle of skills first, then allowing those skills to enable artistry.

 

So it all 'makes sense', and I would expect similar will be seen with Medvedeva, Jin, and Brown over the next two years.

[LucyH]

24 minutes ago, Cerunias said:

 

As Orser has said a number of times regarding his athletes, you don't see results immediately when he gets new athletes, but rather, only after about 18 months. For example, in the case of Yuzuru, Orser himself has said that although he got good foundations from Abe, he tended to skate a bit fast and loose and so they started from those foundations again and worked their way up. Orser himself has also described his coaching principle of skills first, then allowing those skills to enable artistry.

 

So it all 'makes sense', and I would expect similar would be seen with Medvedeva, Jin, and Brown over the next two years.

While I agree that it is about the 2nd season (as indicated by Brian) that results can be truly be seen day in and day out,  they don't exactly falter either. Both Javi and Yuzu won and placed at multiple events in their first season with Brian but they didn't become consistent medalists at every competition until the 2nd season. Evgenia is a bit different and that's why I am very interested to see what happens with her trajectory. She already wins/gets 2nd in literally EVERY competition she has entered as a Senior since 2015....  To me, the TCC team has to make sure that does well enough that Rus Fed leaves them alone for that pivotal 2nd season. That's the season that I fully expect to see her come into own and that's the season that she will need it the most with the Eteri Junior Jumpers turning senior. In fact if I was Alina I'd worry about that season too... I think Evgenia knows this as well and that's why the move to Orser had to happen this off season. She couldn't wait as she's aware that Orser/TCC methods do not yield immediate results and she's setting herself up to be at her best when those Russian Juniors move up. Yuzu won Olympics and WC in his second season with Brian  

[Cerunias]

1 hour ago, LucyH said:

...that Rus Fed leaves them alone...

 

Just to put this thought/opinion out there:

 

 I don't think this will be a major issue, at least initially. This is not the first time that someone on this thread has speculated about how much the Fed of each skater now going to TCC may be involved or may "interfere". Just a day or two ago were posts questioning the extent the Chinese Fed may be involved with Jin's training at TCC, for example.

 

Referring back to the documentary re Javier Fernandez and his training with Brian Orser and the team at TCC, it is clear from Orser's interview comments that one of the conditions he sets with the Feds is that it is "his way, or no way at all". It would seem he did this with both with the Spanish Fed and the Japanese Fed. Orser has a training method, and he sticks to the principles of that method.

 

So I would be very surprised if Orser hadn't set that as a condition with the Russian Fed already. And ditto with the Chinese Fed and the US Fed, with reference to the previous posts in this thread speculating about how hands-on the Chinese Fed will be with Jin and the US Fed with Brown. Given his success with first Kim, and then Fernandez and Hanyu, I would imagine that Orser has earned himself quite a bit of bargaining power in this regard, and he strikes me as a person who wouldn't hesitate to use this power if he felt that it would be to the benefit of his skaters and helps him to do his job (based on his comments in past interviews and behaviour in past events). One cannot deny that the principles of his method are effective based on his track record, and given each Fed wants to see results, they would be fools to interfere with Orser's methods!

 

Now, if there isn't some proof of results or potential for results come the start of the second year, then you might hear some rumbles from some Feds (if only out of impatience).

 

What I would be interested in is how Orser's training method will evolve to be able to do justice to the training of so many elite skaters now. It is clear from Orser's previous interviews that he takes great care to not favour one skater over another (ie Fernandez and Hanyu), and now he has double the number of elite skaters than he did pre-PC!

[LucyH]

13 minutes ago, Cerunias said:

 

Just to put this thought/opinion out there:

 

 I don't think this will be a major issue, at least initially. This is not the first time that someone on this thread has speculated about how much the Fed of each skater now going to TCC may be involved or may "interfere". Just a day or two ago were posts questioning the extent the Chinese Fed may be involved with Jin's training at TCC, for example.

 

Referring back to the documentary re Javier Fernandez and his training with Brian Orser and the team at TCC, it is clear from Orser's interview comments that one of the conditions he sets with the Feds is that it is "his way, or no way at all". It would seem he did this with both with the Spanish Fed and the Japanese Fed. Orser has a training method, and he sticks to the principles of that method.

 

So I would be very surprised if Orser hadn't set that as a condition with the Russian Fed already. And ditto with the Chinese Fed and the US Fed, with reference to the previous posts in this thread speculating about how hands-on the Chinese Fed will be with Jin and the US Fed with Brown. Given his success with first Kim, and then Fernandez and Hanyu, I would imagine that Orser has earned himself quite a bit of bargaining power in this regard, and he strikes me as a person who wouldn't hesitate to use this power if he felt that it would be to the benefit of his skaters and helps him to do his job (based on his comments in past interviews and behaviour in past events). One cannot deny that the principles of his method are effective based on his track record, and given each Fed wants to see results, they would be fools to interfere with Orser's methods!

 

Now, if there isn't some proof of results or potential for results come the start of the second year, then you might hear some rumbles from some Feds (if only out of impatience).

 

What I would be interested in is how Orser's training method will evolve to be able to do justice to the training of so many elite skaters now. It is clear from Orser's previous interviews that he takes great care to not favour one skater over another (ie Fernandez and Hanyu), and now he has double the number of elite skaters than he did pre-PC!

Yes Brian is not afraid to use his clout at all and he has always said there can't be more than one cook (I put the TCC team as one) in his kitchen i.e. no meddling Feds or parents for that matter. What I was getting at in my post was more along the lines RusFed continuing to fund Evgenia in Canada and not playing club politics. Rus Nats are going to be a much bigger deal for her than honestly any of the GP comps this season. That's why I think Brian will be the one to go with her to Russia even though JNats are at the same time and he is usually with Yuzu. I think Tracy and Ghislain will be in Japan with him. 

[MrPudding]

 

[rockstaryuzu]

15 hours ago, LucyH said:

Yes definitely this - just about the only time that Toronto gets inundated with celebs is during TIFF and even though fans are very respectful in general. I've encountered different movie / TV stars in Toronto, Halifax, Calgary and etc. and have never approached anyone especially if they look like they are out in private enjoying the city. I know it's a cliched stereotype but we Canadians are really super polite and nice

Yes we are. This is a bit OT but indulge me for a bit: there's a wonderful story about the time Pierce Brosnan came to my (Ontario) town to film a movie. He and the director went shopping in our biggest, busiest downtown mall...and no one even noticed. They went to the food court to get coffees and were sitting there enjoying the anonymity, when suddenly they overhear two kids at the next table arguing. It turns out one kid had recognized them and was trying to convince his friend that they were famous. The other wasn't buying it, arguing that if it really Pierce Brosnan, he'd have bodyguards and a manager with him. And then the kids argued over whether they should approach him and finally decided not to. Brosnan himself told the story to the local newspaper when they came round to write a piece about the movie,  because it gave him such a chuckle.

 

Canada. The place where no one will admit they recognize you, even if they do. 😆

[Bilge]

 

[Huiqi]

4 hours ago, asiacheetah said:

Yuzu wasn't quite elite level when he moved to TCC, but he reached that level within 2 years.

He broke 2 world records and got a 2nd place finish in grand prix final 2012, so i believe he was already in the elite level in his first season with Brian. His 4th place finish in Worlds 2013 was due to his injuries. 

[Fay]

A man who’d won a Worlds bronze medal before he came to a coach is an elite level skater. 

[yuzupon]

Many people might not remember or simply wasn't there when it happened. But I remember when Zu moved to TCC there was such an uproar bcz he was already achieving high and people doubted the move to Orser would turn out well. Of course those who doubted were proven wrong, but there was a reason the uproar happened: Yuzu was already an elite skater under Nanami Abe.

Can we please properly appreciate what Nanami-sensei did with Zu (bearing in mind this all happened without full support by JSF, bcz Sendai) and not diminish it? TCC is great for Zu, but he wasn't a nobody when he moved there.

 

ETA: since some has been commenting on the last part, yes, I know we all have the utter respect for Nanami-sensei. BUT, in the context of the whole post, if you say Yuzu was not already an elite athlete when he moved to Orser, you imply what Nanami-sensei did with him was not as great as it was, ergo you are diminishing her work. The post was a whole, I apologise if it was not clear enough it's what I mean.

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, MrPudding said:

 

 

What's this about?

[Cerunias]

32 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

Yuzu was already an elite skater under Nanami Abe.

Can we please properly appreciate what Nanami-sensei did with Zu (bearing in mind this all happened without full support by JSF, bcz Sendai) and not diminish it?

 

Too true, given his early list of achievements by the time he left Sendai for Toronto. And clearly Abe gave Hanyu a great foundation to build on - as Orser himself has pointed out. And the fact that she recommended to Hanyu to seek out another coach to further improve and evolve to the next level - that says a lot (of positive things) about her as well and her "willingness to give up" an elite skater. Of course, while there are those who would say that a lot of it came down to Hanyu's own skill, talent, and hard work, if he didn't have a great coach/mentor like Nanami-sensei, and Minoru-san before (who encouraged and taught Hanyu to love skating), he would have been hard-pressed to unleash these attributes to their full potential.

 

Scientists are wont to say that they "stand on shoulders of giants". The principle surely applies here too. Without Nanami Abe and Minoru Sano, Hanyu wouldn't be where he is today (whether with or without Brian Orser). I think that's why it was fantastic that he recognised both of them in CiONTU.