General Yuzuru Chat

[xeyra]

Don't you think he's already planning new transitions though? Or at least experimenting. Twizzles in and out of 3A, hydroblade into 3A. Although he hasn't mastered them. If that isn't creative, interesting and original I don't know what is. Also difficult *coughs*

But that's for a 3A. That has no bearing in this rule; it only applies to the solo non-3A jump. Every other jump should be graded the same it has always been, solely on GOE bullets.

[Katt]

Edit: Also, on the last part. You don't necessarily get max GOE. Your jump may still only have the bullets for a lower GOE margin, but you may no longer have judges disagreeing as much about a jump when some used to give -2 and -1 due to applying, I guess, a no step rule. So more positive GOE all around in SP solo jumps, I guess?

 

It's just so... subjective... what can be considered original/creative or, *snort*, interesting. Who is going to judge this? How!? At least adding 'difficult steps/transitions' as a rule had a more objective understanding (even if it was ignored by some).

 

Yeah. You're right. Why they have to make the rule more subjective when its come to TES. Tbh judges barely give negative goe for solo jump if that come from top skater. Mostly low rank skaters are punished by this step rule.

 

Edit : I just read again. Actually, there's still deduction for no step before solo jump :

 

No required preceding steps/movements : -3

Break between required steps/movements and jump // only 1 step/movement preceding jump : -1 to -2

 

So you still need to do steps before solo jump. But no need to do really difficult steps. Just creative/interesting is enough ????

[swanbeau]

Don't you think he's already planning new transitions though? Or at least experimenting. Twizzles in and out of 3A, hydroblade into 3A. Although he hasn't mastered them. If that isn't creative, interesting and original I don't know what is. Also difficult *coughs*

But that's for a 3A. That has no bearing in this rule; it only applies to the solo non-3A jump. Every other jump should be graded the same it has always been, solely on GOE bullets.

oh i thought solo jumps in SP means 3A was included there. (backcounter 3A stays i guess) so... he might change 4Lo spread eagle sandwich? he used spread eagle sandwich since forever ago and some judges might think its overrated now... hmmm i dont know though i just hope the standard for 'creative/interesting' for yuzuru is not higher than the other skaters.

[Dara]

Edit: Also, on the last part. You don't necessarily get max GOE. Your jump may still only have the bullets for a lower GOE margin, but you may no longer have judges disagreeing as much about a jump when some used to give -2 and -1 due to applying, I guess, a no step rule. So more positive GOE all around in SP solo jumps, I guess?

 

It's just so... subjective... what can be considered original/creative or, *snort*, interesting. Who is going to judge this? How!? At least adding 'difficult steps/transitions' as a rule had a more objective understanding (even if it was ignored by some).

 

Yeah. You're right. Why they have to make the rule more subjective when its come to TES. Tbh judges barely give negative goe for solo jump if that come from top skater. Mostly low rank skaters are punished by this step rule.

 

Edit : I just read again. Actually, there's still deduction for no step before solo jump :

 

No required preceding steps/movements : -3

Break between required steps/movements and jump // only 1 step/movement preceding jump : -1 to -2

 

So you still need to do steps before solo jump. But no need to do really difficult steps. Just creative/interesting is enough ????

Till 2016-2017 season there wasn't any requirement for difficult steps for SP.

You can check this in communication for 2015-2016 season.

But adding such definitions as "creative, interesting, original" makes judging more subjective, so I don't quite like it...

[Nuitsuki]

I can see what people mean when saying they age 100000 years every season, because I'm so anxious af at the moment :cry: . I guest because I don't have a big picture about fs world, so I'm kind of blind going without predicting how things gonna/possibly gonna be. This makes me admire Yuzu so much, how could he have such deep insights about the sport and give predictions which mostly ended up right...

[nagini]

someday we really should have a talk with the ISU , they know how to be subtle lol :hachimaki:

 

We can always write petitions. Though i don't think they'll consider it much unless we get quite 'Enough' fans from all the fandoms to sign it.

 

Don't you think he's already planning new transitions though? Or at least experimenting. Twizzles in and out of 3A, hydroblade into 3A. Although he hasn't mastered them. If that isn't creative, interesting and original I don't know what is. Also difficult *coughs*

 

We know he's always creating something, though what will be the point (of course self evolvement) if it won't be considered 'interesting' by the judges?

[Katt]

@Dara : thank you. The only things I remember from 2015-16 season's communication are the change in BV for UR quad and 3T/3S.

 

Tbh, the judges barely use the step rule, so this change won't affect much.

[akaokitty]

I just caught up with thread finally... almost 30 pages whew

 

I'm really not liking the changes done to the GOE guidelines. It's now ridiculously subjective... honestly that's why we have certain components scores. I prefer TES to be scored/judged more objectively and uniformly, I don't think I want to know what a "top skater" will be like in a few years in this kind of environment. I have a feeling it won't be up to my ideals. Instead of this nonsense why don't they implement changes that ensure better consistency and fairness on edge calls or just plain making GOEs even less subjective? That way skaters have a more reliable guideline on what to do and build from there.

 

Maybe I'm being weirdly pessimistic but I don't have a particularly good feeling about this. Sometimes I'm afraid I won't allow myself to invest so much emotion into another skater again after Yuzu. I'm so sorry Boyang. I'll still support you though!

 

On another note about the suits discussion I read like 15 pages back, I would like to see Yuzu in a bespoke 3 piece suit. Preferably with an interestingly textured tie. A few pictures, some with the suit jacket on and some off... I think I'll get a nosebleed :love:

[swanbeau]

Till 2016-2017 season there wasn't any requirement for difficult steps for SP.

You can check this in communication for 2015-2016 season.

But adding such definitions as "creative, interesting, original" makes judging more subjective, so I don't quite like it...

This. If they just want to make it easy they could go back to just 'steps before solo jumps for SP'. 'Difficult steps' can be defined but 'creative, interesting, original' sounds so... vague. If only there is confirmation that 'difficult steps' immediately fill the requirement, i can breathe a little easier.

[xeyra]

Just to relax everyone around here: this rule will have no bearing on Yuzuru. No judge is going to suddenly start adding -3 to a spread-eagle sandwich quad if it is otherwise a good quad just because he has done it before. No need to panic there.

 

It might or might not have consequences on other skater's jumps, though if it's a positive or neutral consequence for them remains to be seen. It'll depend on what will be otherwise considered to be 'interesting and creative' movements by the judges, I guess.

[meoima]

Gkelly replied me on FSuniverse, I will just quote her words here:

-------------

This is a little complicated, and the rules have changed somewhat from year to year. I don't think this is an actual rule change, but a (partial) clarification from what the situation was last year.

 

To the best of my knowledge/recollection:

 

A number of years ago, there used to be errors that had GOE reductions of -1 to -2 but the final GOE was not required to be negative, other errors with -2 or -3 reductions that required negative GOE, and only two kinds that required the final GOE had to be -3 regardless of the quality of the element:

SP jump with one or more revolution less than required, and SP combination of one jump only

 

So for a double jump where triple was required, or single (usually axel) where at least double was required, the final GOE had to be -3 -- not just negative, but -3 specifically

 

In freeskates, there are no requirements about jump rotations, so double and single jumps could and still can get any GOE up to +3 there.

 

More recently the middle kind of reduction no longer has to result in negative final (although if the reduction is -3, the final GOE can't be more than 0).

 

Also, a year or two ago the rule changed so that jumps with fewer than required rotations in the short program get no points. Thus the GOE for a solo single axel, solo single jump out of steps, or solo double out of steps at senior level is moot because the whole element now gets no points at all.

 

For SP jump combinations, for a double-double or single-double combination the skater can still get points for the double jump (or the one with the higher base value if there are two), because one double is allowed in the combination. But if the other jump is required to be at least triple, then a single or second double gets no value.

 

And the final GOE must be -3.

 

But the way this was worded in the GOE guidelines last year was confusing: IIRC it said the only required -3 GOE was for a SP jump combination with only one jump.

 

What this really meant was that the GOE for the SP jump combination had to be -3 if there was only one jump that counted. So in a triple-single or double-double combination, the skater does get base value for the higher value jump, but none for the other jump that is not according to requirements, and for this error the final GOE must be -3.

 

This new wording seems to be an attempt to clarify that the jump combination must get -3 regardless of whether the second jump is nonexistent or whether one of the jumps has too few revolutions. One jump of the intended combo does get points, so the element does get GOE (and that GOE must be -3, as has always been the case for this kind of error in the short program).

 

It's still not entirely clear, though.

 

I suppose the wording as it now stands would also mean that the GOE for a quad in a junior or senior ladies' short program would require -3 GOE because the requirements for those short programs don't allow for quads. But I don't think we have to worry about that -- hopefully any ladies trying quads will be smart enough to save them for the freeskate unless the SP rules change in future years.

[xeyra]

Thanks, meoima. So my understanding is that this applies to the combo jumps and any errors in a combo that may lead to an invalidated jump have to automatically get -3 GOE applied to it. So if you do a double-double in a men's senior SP, you have to get -3 GOE applied to it, because it would have had to be a triple-double or quad-double (or the other way around) for it to be a valid combo, correct?

 

Edit: Single non-combo jumps will still be marked as invalid (0).

[swanbeau]

Just to relax everyone around here: this rule will have no bearing on Yuzuru. No judge is going to suddenly start adding -3 to a spread-eagle sandwich quad if it is otherwise a good quad just because he has done it before. No need to panic there.

yes of course. giving -3 to a clean jump is just impossibly ridiculous. i was just worried of him not checking that bullet. but even if he dont, he'll check other bullets and still get enough lol. it's yuzu after all, he'll get by some way.

 

thanks meoima, i was a bit confused about that 'jumps that do not satisfy the requirements' because i thought i read 'a wrong number of revolutions' as in popped jump, included in that but thank god it's not.

[ShiroKJ]

Thanks, meoima. So my understanding is that this applies to the combo jumps and any errors in a combo that may lead to an invalidated jump have to automatically get -3 GOE applied to it. So if you do a double-double in a men's senior SP, you have to get -3 GOE applied to it, because it would have had to be a triple-double or quad-double (or the other way around) for it to be a valid combo, correct?

 

Edit: Single non-combo jumps will still be marked as invalid (0).

 

There's no possible way for a single invalided jump to get anything other than 0, whereas in a combo, if the first jump is valid then there will be a goe applied.

[xeyra]

ShiroKJ said:

xeyra said:

Thanks, meoima. So my understanding is that this applies to the combo jumps and any errors in a combo that may lead to an invalidated jump have to automatically get -3 GOE applied to it. So if you do a double-double in a men's senior SP, you have to get -3 GOE applied to it, because it would have had to be a triple-double or quad-double (or the other way around) for it to be a valid combo, correct?

 

Edit: Single non-combo jumps will still be marked as invalid (0).

 

There's no possible way for a single invalided jump to get anything other than 0, whereas in a combo, if the first jump is valid then there will be a goe applied.

Yep.

 

I honestly thought combo errors were already deducted -3 automatically, so I guess nothing changes here, they just tried to clarify the wording on their previous rule for this. I initially did think they were going to start taking out GOE on the invalidated 0 jumps too, but I guess this is why I should re-read things in english more than once.