¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that ballet perhaps wouldn't be suited to competition because...well, to my very limited knowledge, I don't think ballet itself does competitions. It has performances ala philharmonic orchestras but not full-on tournaments or even mini piroutte-offs the way other kinds genres of dancing have organized competitions. So I get that one. But for these other dances that actually hold competitions and have teams emerge as winners, those qualify i think, if ID qualifies. Hmm, I find FS 100% sport. Being artistic doesn't make it less of one. If anything, it makes it more. And I include ID in this category, only in lesser value compared to other disciplines within the FS sphere. I sweat when I eat extremely spicy or hot soupy stuff, tho. Does that make me an athlete? I really hope it does...

Lol. Well the sun *does* have an entire solar system revolving around it so...would solar magnitude gravity work slightly better? Maybe? Aw, talk about humble early wishes... ...well, he certainly achieved what he wished for here. Just shot way, way, waaaaaaay past his initial mark to hit a big bunch of other targets while he was at it since braking isn't, you know, his thing. Classic Hanyu.

You did? I guess I'm must not have have read between the lines deep enough then. Sorry about that. Still, I find it hard to fathom that they'll say not to an Olympic medal but if they are as haughty as you are implying them to be, then maybe they don't deserve to be. But I guess what you said about ID having more of a claim as being included as a sport due to their shared elements with other disciplines than others clears up a bit of my befuddlement. Not all of it, mind, but enough. Because it *is* due to these shared elements that some argue that figure skating as a whole is more dance than sport. And ice skating skills all have the same basis, no matter the discipline. But thanks for clearing things a bit for me.

I wouldn't say I have a problem with it per se. I was merely puzzled as to why, as a dance it gets sanctioned as a sport while other dances are still stuck in their own leagues. And while I may be overthinking it, I don't think what I'm thinking is invalid either. Maybe you haven't been reading what I wrote properly, which frankly I can't say I blame you given that my explanations can get pretty long, I don't want it to disappear either, cos like I said, I thought it was good that it got included. I just also also happen to think that it'd be nice if other dances get included too. Because if ID can, why not them? It's not like they are any less athletic than ID. I noticed that no one but @hoodie axel really addressed this one point I've been trying to make.

Dunno what it is really. Men's figure skating was never been on my radar until I saw him skate. I've seen other men skating before but they never did anything for me. They are either too stiff or too flamboyant for my tastes. Ladies were more enchanting to watch but even they got boring after a while for me. I guess Hanyu just struck the right balance for me, which in turn opened my eyes to what figure skating can be, what it truly is, and the many wonderful (and alarming) things it represents. Or maybe it's just some kinda magnetism he has that anyone who has their mind open or their defenses even a little bit lower than usual when they see him are sure to get pulled in like moths to a bright flame. I just know that I root for him as hard as I do is because he's proven to be much more than just a champion athlete.

It's quite simple. We have non-judged sports where it's very clear cut who wins. We have sports which aren't wholly dependent on judges for points but there are referees who determine whether or not rules have been followed or if a team deserves points or if a point is valid. And then, we have judged sports where the scores are wholly determined by judges but made a bit more objective in recent years with a clear cut scoring system based on elements performed. Now for the third category, which figure skating has, technical elements all have clear rules under which they should be scored but it's the big technical elements (and when they are performed) that really give a figure skater the edge. Although what sets Hanyu apart is the way he gives importance to all elements instead of simply the jumps, and even though being a complete skater has always been his ultimate goal, there has been a time when he was wholly focused on just the jumps. He wouldn't be the far and away champion he is today without them. Ice dancing obviously does not have that, and so depends on more subtle elements. Back during the 6.0 era, when jumps didn't have their own scores and everything was dependent on the judges, the evolution, while it happened, came about slower and development of big technical elements that would get judges on a skater's side seemed stuck on triples because skaters didn't see the point in pushing the quad boundaries seeing as a fall back then is a death sentence to their contention chances. Quads back then were more of a thing to see who could do it. And for the longest time, that was all it was, even after the initial shift from the 6.0 system to the IJS one which, albeit with a few revisions, is still going strong today. After the initial transition, there were more skaters jumping quads, sure, and there was Plushenko pushing for them but he was by and large alone as most others were still playing it safe. But the scores were there for their taking if they were willing to risk it. And even so, it didn't always pay off (see men's individual Olympics results circa 2010). That's how I came to realize that figure skating is as much a sport as other sports out there, if not more so. Ice dancing is different. With it being ultimately a dance, it does not require big technical elements because then it would no longer be dance but a full-on sport*. It's all about basics and prowess of a more subtle nature. So you have a way to score them but if you have a few teams who are very close in skill to one another, which would happen in something that doesn't get big obvious developments but only subtle ones, and if one team is unbeaten at one thing, another one would sure to be able to do another thing better than the rest, the technical scoring wouldn't be amply huge to give one the edge over the other. So it'll have to fall back on which team the judges simply like better, either on that day or everyday (ie: based on bias.) *I have nothing against ID being judged and awarded as a sport. In fact, I think it's a step in the right direction that they included it as a separate discipline, something I believe is actually pretty recent. But this is why it baffles me why other dances which are subject to more or less the same logic and rules when it comes to judging didn't get the same treatment. And until they do, ID will remain an anomaly to me. @Lyyli (sorry I left out quoting you cos this post is already overly long. It didn't need to look it too >_<) Singles and pairs have to be more than ID, imo, because the ideal for those disciplines is the same kind of flow and smoothness ID has but WITH big technical elements. Yeah, in a way it is. But say what you want about Tutberidze and her baby jumping androids, the Russians have really been stepping up their game and injecting this discipline with the kind of fire it should have. There's always been a potential for it because when a technically superior (and almost always younger) skater came along in the past who managed to skate clean, the judges have proven to have ultimately preferred the one who showed the more impressive athletic prowess. That's how Lipinski, Sotnikova and Zagitova won. And had Asada not made that mistake she did in Vancouver, she may very well have won over Kim. In the same vein, it is also why Chen was able to win over Hanyu in last year's 4CC (where he pulled those impressive stunts) and this year's FS segment at the Olys (where other than his two mini-errors, he skated like a dream, enough to not have Chen with just his jumps to beat him by 9 whole points). And the reason for his explosive scores that made him the reigning world champion whose combined total score is second only to Hanyu, with less than 10 points. Hanyu knew what he was doing when he kept pushing for those quads last quarter when everyone was telling him he didn't need them. He was born hardheaded for a reason. And while he ultimately didn't need them to win his second OGM, he definitely needed them on hand because if Chen wasn't so cowed by the pressure and having to skate after his explosive performance, had he skated his SP clean, you can bet Hanyu's going to bring out his big guns in the FS, regardless of how Chen does in it (he might very well have succumbed to pressure then being that close to the OGM). That kind of strategizing and sporting warfare isn't something we'll ever get to see in a sport like ID. You see a lot of tension between top teams, sure, especially between favorites, just like the old days for other disciplines, but I think that has a lot to do with so many things being out of their hands, and there being no telling who would win even if they skated their best.

Maybe I wasn't as clear in expressing my thoughts as I should've been and put you in the defensive over something you seem very passionate about but in saying that ice dancing is about as athletic as ballet and ballroom dancing, I'm not saying they aren't athletic. I'm actually saying they are. In fact I said very clearly later on in my post that they require athletic prowess, just not the same kind as the kind of athletic prowess you see in other disciplines of sports. I also mentioned that I realized dancing is hard. What you said struck me as you reading only the beginning of my post without processing what I said later on because you interpreted what I said early on in a way struck a nerve and that was all you focused on. Anywho, I'm aware that dancing is both art and also technical to a fault, the way ice dancing is. What I don't get is if ice dancing is judged as a sport, why aren't ballet and ballroom dancing in the summer Olympics as well? It certainly isn't because they're less athletic than ice dancing. Or at least, they shouldn't be considered as such. But they aren't considered as sport despite the athleticism involved, which is what I don't get about the ice dancing discipline, which *is* considered as a sport, much. No, it really isn't. It's more like saying racewalking is a sport but perhaps not the same kind of main category sport as hurdling. But I do consider it a main category sport with the rest though. Because it's basically like running, but in slow motion. There are other sports that are like it in its category. Ice dancing doesn't. So until other dances like ballet and ballroom dancing are considered as sport as well, ice dancing will remain a subcategory sport to me. Look, I'm not looking to start a debate. I merely said what I did because I genuinely don't get it. And even after reading what you all said, while it all makes sense, it still does nothing to clear away the doubts I have. They're based on the way my head rationalizes things so I'm really not asking anybody to agree with me. If it works as a sport for you despite other dances not being considered as such, then okay. I may not get it, but I'll respect it as there's gotta be a good reason why you all follow it, right? Some of you have been doing it for aeons, too. I'm not about to try to change your minds. 6.0 judging may also be prevalent in other disciplines, but not as much as ice dancing where the opportunity of ambiguity is much more ample. Sure, there's a huge difference between those at the very pinnacle and those who aren't quite there but in the top group, the things that set each team apart are subject to high amounts of ambiguity and subjectivity. Which is what I meant when said I can't tell the difference between them if they all skate clean. If I notice something about team A is better than team B, then likewise there's something else team B is better at than team A is and it's not always clear cut like jumps and their BVs and sometimes GOEs so it's down to who the judges simply prefer to pick based on other factors that have little to nothing to do with what the skaters themselves put on the ice that day. Again, although this applies to other disciplines as well up to a certain degree, the opportunity for this sort for judging in ice dancing strikes me as way more ample. And while it shouldn't be that way in other disciplines (at least under the tech scoring) so subjective judging is controlled in a way where it wouldn't be the only thing that decides who the winner should be, I actually don't see any other way to judge ice dancing because ice dancing in its essence requires subjective judging for the outcome. There are ice dancing teams whose style I enjoy but unless other dances become recognized as sport as well, I doubt I'll ever get it as a sport much.

I dunno. When people say figure skating isn't a sport, I always think of ice dancing, because the other disciplines are plenty sport. Like, I'm aware ice dancing is athletic, but to me, it involves about as much athletics as ballet and ballroom dancing. It's basically ballroom dancing on ice to me. Like you need stamina, agility, flair and flexibility so it requires athletic prowess to a degree but it does not involve the kind of athletic prowess needed in actual sport type of figure skating. I may be wrong in this but I can't seem to shake the notion that skaters from the singles and pairs discipline would have a less hard time switching to ice dancing than the other way around (and virtually impossible unless these dancers make the switch really young). I'm not saying ice dancing is easy because dancing, as a general rule, ain't easy. And it can be harder to win due to the ambiguity in the judging. But it sure as hell isn't in the same sport category as the other disciplines. Like, maybe a subcategory, but I simply can't see it as a main category sport. So while I'm impressed by medals won in this category, if I have to be honest, it pales in comparison to the medals garnered by athletes in the other disciplines, since I can't tell the difference in prowess between all those on the ice dancing podium, if they all skated clean. It's like figure skating back in the 6.0 era to me, minus the jumps. Aren't Asians skating to warhorse essentially that? Or are you talking about more indigenous stuff like Russian or Celtic folk thingies?

Thank you for the updates, @ralucutzagy and @turquoiseblue. It's good to know that even in death, his life continues to bring positive changes and it is in all these, that he is ultimately still alive.

You're really not. I actually think the longer he holds out the better it is for me cos I get to indulge in my imagination and fantasies of what he'll be skating to for that much longer. There'll be no more of that this season once he lets his programs drop so I'm actually hoping he'll wait until he can't any longer. I realize I'm in the minority but so far, it's been working in my favor so. But with each day ACI draws closer, that's going to change soon and I won't get to keep doing it for much longer. So I'm gonna savor it each day he remains quiet. I just did all those yesterday...a lot of work and time wasted on a single bar of chocolate...guy who does maintenance said if I were to persist I would have to replace the vending machine. I told him one, that's not likely when the machine is most likely insured and if it's not, that's the management's problem because with a machine that shitty, they really should've accounted for ample abuse from disgruntled staff, and two, like hell I woulda stuck around if I punched a hole in it. But only after I thanked him for his help, of course.

Just wanted to drop this: 😂😂😂 Can't seem to find anywhere appropriate to put this so I opened up a new thread for it.

No, you're really not. Design ain't half bad, tho. There. Now you've got it. Pool's rather small though. These rankings are quite haphazardly done, I feel, like they're only doing it for the sake of simply having some content to fill the time. I don't get the sense that they give even the vaguest idea as to what slightly more accurate results might be.

*chuckle* True that. But hey, I'm actually not putting down Hanyu's looks here. It's not my personal opinion, it's Hanyu's very own. Remember how he was lamenting his shallow features on Kenji's Room? I'm drawing from that. And from here, it's not that far of a reach to surmise that maybe that feeling was exacerbated by having to train alongside Fernandez, who is the epitome of the classic European deep-featured sort of handsome and is, well, objectively a very handsome guy*. It's gotten to a point where Hanyu seems to consider anyone who has the slightest bit deeper set features than him to have very deepset features. I actually agree with Miyamoto when he disclaimed that his own features aren't all that deep but I also agree with Hanyu when he retorted that compared to his own, they are. I'm not saying that shallow features are bad. Far, faaaar from it. I think they are objectively as beautiful as deep ones when all other features are well put together to form a nice-looking face, which Hanyu does have. I view good looks themselves as a spectrum with Fernandez one extreme end and Hanyu the other. If anything, it's Hanyu himself who has a narrower view and talked about it like it wasn't a good thing. So go take it up with him. >_< I'm only stating what I observed. Maybe his thinkng has changed a bit since but if it hasnt, be forewarned that his mind probably isn't one that's easy to change. You might find yourself with better luck trying to manually change the tides of the ocean instead. *For being a peppy non-brooder, he (Fernandez) sure does have them brooding good looks that are perfect for, well, brooding, which ironically he doesn't do a lot of outside of serious performances so you don't realize how good-looking he truly is.

Gotta love this artist's sense of humor. It's like they're gifted by God twice or something. Once for their artistic talent. And again for their sense of humor.

I know, I know, it's probably weird to say this given the bird suit he's sporting but dayuuuum if the guy ain't a looker. Even by Mediterranean European standards (the ethnicity famed for their deepset features and bedroom eyes), he's a 10. Like, the only thing he doesn't have going for him physically for his ethnicity I can think of that a person can tell at first glance is height. I can't think of anything else. If those are the features Hanyu had to look at in close proximity all these years, it's pretty understandable why he developed the wish-I've-got-what-he's-got syndrome. xP Haha. I think it would be a benevolent deed on Hanyu's part if he does pay the town a visit on a whim. The town, like most of the rest of Saitama, doesn't have much going on for it and could probably use the excitement. When I drove through it to get to Tochigi last year, and again to get back to Tokyo, all the impression I got of it was that it was a dinky little factory town with an impressive number of tiny gas stands. >_< This one, perhaps?

This is an incredibly awesome picture of Hanyu. Everything is so natural and so essentially him. This is my kind of photography and one of the kind of photography skills I highly admire and consider as true.

Logically and ideally this should be the case. But the world is far from perfect and there are too many shadowy factors involved for things to play out this way. For if you have someone like Hanyu out there whose prowess on the ice practically holds most judges at gunpoint to get them to cough up the points, robbing them blind of them whenever he could, and if you have big Feds who have reps with a shitload of high-caliber firepower and little else and who don't want these reps to fall too far behind this smooth operating highway robber of a skater, and so want some of the loot distributed to their own trigger-happy skaters--regardless of whether or not they actually put in the work for said points--all existing within the same era, the scenario you imagined is a virtual impossibility. ISU will likely continue caving in to demands of relevant parties and avoid addressing issues with the judging (by actively not doing the things that would help promote objectivity among judges) because they have their own interests to protect. This leads to manipulations such as those that artificially level the playing field to keep competitions competitive and as such interesting so people, especially casual viewers, will keep watching and fans will keep talking about it. Even if the subject is negative, like people getting exasperated and arguing against the unfairness, they are at least still talking about it, in which case their machinations would have served their purpose. What you have up there is a nice dream, but reality is a mess. It always is. The sooner you accept that, the less disillusionment there'll be, the easier it is to simply enjoy the performances. /my two cents P/S: I would, of course, love nothing more than to be proven wrong about this but I wouldn't bet on it. Figure skating has been around for a long time and had always been a convoluted sport governed by conservative types so it's not going to suddenly become all sunshine and roses. IJS and CoP were an enormous step in the right direction for them but it's still plagued by old school sensibilities. Once the old guard has been switched out in its entirety, then maybe what you're saying up there might gradually come into fruition to a certain extent. But as things currently stand, it's still way too early for progress to come as far as what you illustrated.

If it weren't for Lombardia and their love for all things Uno*, lol, he might have had a chance for the FS earlier on as well. Well, perhaps in one of the later comps of the season then. Sigh. Hanyu, the poor lil 2xOGM underdoge. Nothing ever comes easy for him. >_< *Just realized his name is literally no.1 in Italian, haha! Of course, there are no guarantees the guy will perform clean with the new shortened timings, just like it's almost a sure thing Hanyu won't be clean, but to Uno's credit, he *does* tend to be pretty steady right at the start. @BWOZWaltzIf we're talking about this...why'd they go for the arms and not the legs? His arms have got nothing on his legs. Nothing.

Dayuuum. And he was rearing to beat his own records too. That 111 he scored back at the Olys must be a new and permanent kuyashii for him now, hahaha. And H&L shall now be the most underscored highest score forever more. That's like two world records in one. Forever. Congratulations, Hanyu. But this would also mean he can literally try to establish a new record at every comp he shows up to for now. It'd almost be like a repeat of the 2012-2013 season for him. Lol. Fun times. Orrrrr maybe not. But he should be able to manage at least one...

Oh yes, he does tack on some thoughtful comments whenever he can. Like even when it isn't positive, he's objective and tactful about it. He doesn't make it sound like it's the skater's fault or that they are a chronic offender (even if they were). So that's a +1 for him. :)) Sano gives a lot of helpful insight as well but in a more...authoritative manner? I guess? I don't think I've ever heard anything mean said about any skaters by Japanese commentators, or anything that's unfairly biased though admittedly, it's also not like I've watched a ton of skating that doesn't involve Hanyu and a few others I'm mildly invested in. But from what I can tell, the Japanese generally gives decent quality commentary at the very least.

Well if you put it that way, I guess I would rather take them over false sensationalism, deliberate misinformation (I can forgive honest mistakes though, even ones that are due to not doing homework) and shading for purposes that are less-than-ethical. They are, at the very least unobtrusive, so if they get too boring to pay attention to, they're easy to tune out so it'd be like watching without commentary. I think it's not just that they don't opine, though, it's that their delivery is all very...bland and without much personality. They don't sound super enthusiastic or unethusiastic either way*. I think therein lies my...lacking enthusiasm for their brand of commentary. * 'cept for Oda, I guess, but you'd be surprised. Despite his enthusiastic reactions he actually doesn't say a lot of substantial or interesting things when commentating...though I don't think it's due to a lack of flair from his part and more...him not wanting to deviate from the set formula?

Thing is, Japanese commentary is actually pretty objective by default (though they focus more on the positives than the negatives) but they're also pretty bland and lacking in personality because they prefer to stick to stating the obvious and don't opine a whole lot. Which is good but there's almost a complete lack of it. Which isn't. Like, to me, listening to them is about the same as watching the performance without commentary. >_< The only one who sticks out is Minoru Sano. His commentating style sort of reminds me of Ambesi's. But everyone else I can think of is a huge bore, including Arakawa.

Lol, they're like the Yuzuru Hanyu of FS commentating. Which is to say, they're in a league their own and no one else should be measured up against their standards because it wouldn't be fair. They are the perfect mixture of intellect, passion, compassion and integrity and albeit not completely without bias, theirs remain a fair one and they do maintain a very high level of objectivity on a consistent basis. A perfect blend like that can't be achieved simply because one desires to. Of course, in striving to become like them the overall quality should improve as well but alas, Italian is far from a universal language. Don't you just wish Ted Barton does more senior competitions commentating?

I dunno...I find discussions of heavier, meatier topics like this far more engaging than the inane chatter and sometimes tooth-rotting fluff that happens a lot in here (nothing wrong with those, of course) especially during the truly "off" part of the off-season, like now. It balances things out. I don't find it a waste of pixels at all. So thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter. The same goes to everyone else who donated their two cents. I find it interesting to see both sides of the argument and I think there are both truth and flaws on either side. The topic itself, however, isn't exactly one that weighs heavily on my mind so I don't have anything of my own to add, luckily for all of you, lol. @Xen: Do-M? Really? And here I thought he veered far, faaaaar more towards the 'S' side of the spectrum...

Lol. Everyone would know by ACI at the latest anyway. That's a sure thing that needs no announcement. So what does it matter whether or not he announces when he's going to announce them? It's pretty funny how we all go through this every season, with each season that comes after worse than the last. As much as we are calling him a troll for making us wait and what not, I can't help but think that this whole getting worked up thing (though to be fair, not everyone here is as some are only coolly speculating, which is like a fun way to past the time, I suppose) is more something we're doing to ourselves than something he's doing to us. Like somebody else has mentioned, it's probably a good idea to savor the whole experience now by the second because one day, we're not going to have even this anymore. I really agree with that. Puts a lot of things into perspective. Although I'm wondering if some of us already know this and are only whining about the wait precisely because it's actually part of the process of enjoying this sweet torture? The human mind, after all, is a very curious thing and I'm convinced that no matter how far technology advances, it's probably something that can never be replicated in AI form.