Proposed changes for next season

[Xen]

2 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

don't say stuff like that 

Realistically that's what will happen. that's how you min/max.

Watch as guys with 4Lz3T combos and 4F3T combos move it to the second half. With GOEs tied to BVs now, how those scores will SOAR!

 

At this point, if they pass the 1 per type of quad rule too, 4Lz3T and 4F3T combos will be pretty crucial. Don't have it, won't go into top 3. =( This is pretty depressing.

[hoodie axel]

4 minutes ago, Xen said:

Watch as guys with 4Lz3T combos and 4F3T combos move it to the second half. With GOEs tied to BVs now, how those scores will SOAR!

I think they won't. They already don't for the most part.

 

I'm fine with this proposal. 

 

It's the ladies I am worried about with that, though.

[Nuitsuki]

I think without the BV advantage japanese ladies would hardly have a chance against canadian/russian/usa ladies because their pcs are miserable  

[hoodie axel]

I'm in two minds about the PCS GOE split. On one hand, quads = PCS and that's bad, of course.

 

On the other, that won't actually change for the top competitors. It's about feds and rep, too. If you note someone like Kazuki Tomono, he got fairly well-deserved PCS in worlds.

 

Nathan Chen getting 92 wasn't just about quads. If it was someone from Argentina doing it, he would have been hammered pretty fairly about it.

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

I think they won't. They already don't for the most part.

 

I'm fine with this proposal. 

 

It's the ladies I am worried about with that, though.

Okay, but someone will try.  With the ladies, it might balance out a bit more, but men's I don't think so (certainly not with GOEs tied to BVs).

[swanbeau]

9 minutes ago, Xen said:

Seriously, with the BV reductions, how the heck do they expect guys who don't jump 4Lz or 4F to catch up?

Watch as the last 3 jumping passes in men's in the long are ALL combos.

 

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

Realistically that's what will happen. that's how you min/max.

Watch as guys with 4Lz3T combos and 4F3T combos move it to the second half. With GOEs tied to BVs now, how those scores will SOAR!

 

At this point, if they pass the 1 per type of quad rule too, 4Lz3T and 4F3T combos will be pretty crucial. Don't have it, won't go into top 3. =( This is pretty depressing.

This is what i was talking about. That with one less jumping pass it benefits 4Lz n 4F jumpers so much.

 

But ppl only blame the no repeat quad rule for it. Even though the truth is, they get even more benefit without it.

 

Repeating both 4lz and 4f (get more bv than doing 4lz/4f combo n then solo other quads), reducing the jumps they will likely fall on (their worst jump), stabilizing and going clean by doing a lot of same type of jumps (same rhythm), resulting in only 5 or even worse, 4 type of jumps in the free. 

[katonice]

Why don't they just tell the skaters how to structure their programs to the very last element while they're at it? Now most everyone will have 2+1 SP and 4+3 FS programs. 

 

And sort of felt the judging panel split wouldn't push through. No one wants to lose that much control over the judging 

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

 

This is what i was talking about. That with one less jumping pass it benefits 4Lz n 4F jumpers so much.

 

But ppl only blame the no repeat quad rule for it. Even though the truth is, they get even more benefit without it.

 

Repeating both 4lz and 4f (get more bv than doing 4lz/4f combo n then solo other quads), reducing the jumps they will likely fall on (their worst jump), stabilizing and going clean by doing a lot of same type of jumps (same rhythm), resulting in only 5 or even worse, 4 type of jumps in the free. 

Nah, I think 4Lz and 4F would be advantageous regardless of the rule.

My issue with that rule is simply that the 4Lz and 4F take too much dominance, more than even now. With GOE tied to BVs now, and 4Lz and 4F having such higher BVs,  it makes sense to skip go straight for the 4Lz and 4F when you enter the senior ranks, and pretty much touch on 4T and 4S as an afterthought. Actually since most guys seem to be more toe jumpers, I think 4S might be an endangered species.

 

Okay, I'll give it a try this way: if the ISU is dead serious about balancing out quads and giving variety of quads a shot-

a) Make a rule that 4Lz 4F and 4A can only appear once in a program, cannot repeat

b) triples and 4T, 4S, 4 Lo (the lower BV quads) are subject solely to Zayak rule

c) if you have 1 jump of each type in a program (quads and triples for men, quads/triples and 2A for women), give a small bonus in the final TES, like a +6 flat score.

 

That would actually promote more jump variety, while decreasing the prominance of the top BV quads in the final TES score.

[hoodie axel]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

Okay, but someone will try.  With the ladies, it might balance out a bit more, but men's I don't think so (certainly not with GOEs tied to BVs).

It's actually in the ladies that I think we'll see combos being backloaded. I won't even take the obvious example of Zagitova. I'll instead point out Higuchi -- she backloaded a 3Lz-3T in both her programs. That might happen more and more.

 

Sure, the BVs an GOEs might affect it more, but I can't see most guys having the energy to do their big quad combos in the back-half right now. 

[Katt]

And before 2022, they will ban 4-3 and 3-3 as the last jumping pass because not everyone can do that 

[katonice]

So if you have 2 SP jumps in the 2nd half, which one gets the bonus? 

[Xen]

Just now, katonice said:

So if you have 2 SP jumps in the 2nd half, which one gets the bonus? 

Last jump...hence last jump will be a combo now...

[hoodie axel]

Here's a sample of the PCS/GOE split from a competition it was tested at.

 

http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/CSGER2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

 

While TES and PCS are unrelated, reputation and other factors are still likely at play.

 

I'd like the proposal to come in again (and I wish it had passed -- it was clearly politicked against, and it's kind of proof of corruption to me), but it really might not have done too much good. The judges are still not trained in this regard too well and are still biased. An undeserved 90 might have become a deserved 80, but deserved 75 might have become 62 undeservedly as well. The judging itself first needs to change. Maybe pick the judges through a standard of review first.

[swanbeau]

14 minutes ago, Xen said:

Nah, I think 4Lz and 4F would be advantageous regardless of the rule.

My issue with that rule is simply that the 4Lz and 4F take too much dominance, more than even now. With GOE tied to BVs now, and 4Lz and 4F having such higher BVs,  it makes sense to skip go straight for the 4Lz and 4F when you enter the senior ranks, and pretty much touch on 4T and 4S as an afterthought. Actually since most guys seem to be more toe jumpers, I think 4S might be an endangered species.

Yup yup yup.

Finally! I have been searching for someone who thought of this too, i think i might cry...

 

4lz and 4f will be advantagous regardless of rules, its becoming more like ladies event where you need stabilize F n Lz to win.

 

Doing them in combo is very advantageous. However im also of the opinion that repeating them both in solo is slightly more advantageous than only doing both of those combos. Bc you can tack a combo after it if you wobble or cant in the first one, and 4lz and 4f solo is still a lot better than any other quad solo, not to mention, you only need to train and stabilize two jumps. you will achieve cleanness more easily. As in, just skip 4t 4s 4lo and go straight for those two and repeat both in combo, thats it. Especially if youre good at both.

 

i think its the 4lo who will be left out completely, bc if one is more of an edge jumper theyll choose 4s over 4t

[Katt]

With the new bonus rule the only way to up BV is go for harder jump. And if the rule for no repeat quad get pass, it could be a nightmare. 

 

Is there any chance for a revision ? 

 

*I found their voting system is so problematic*