Team Japan

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

15 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

 

Well that's not entirely true because the only way you can miss the Japanese Nationals and be considered is if you're not participating because of injury or unavoidable circumstances. So technically you do have to participate. If you don't for the reasons above we get into the whole list of what conditions need to be met. And the list does take into account qualifying comps, just not Nationals. It's not really BOW either; it's very specific few things - top 3 in Japanese of ISU world standing, season world ranking or season best.

This is not something just for Yuzuru either; every single skater taking part has this option available to them in case they're injured/sick/etc. 

 

So no, I don't really consider that a privilege. If they invented something, or bent the rules for Yuzuru, then it would be but as things stand, no.

 

Alright then. I stand corrected. But if this is the case, there's even less reason for younger skaters who only have youth and potential that has yet to be realized on their side to think they should be given a chance and not have opportunities "taken away" just because they are young and have potential, if even those with achievements under their belts don't get any and have to prove themselves as long as they are healthy enough to. So I don't get the worry that others seem to have. If Takahashi does better than those younger up-and-comers, he deserves to go so far as he is able to. Opportunities in this case aren't "taken away". They have to be grabbed so if you don't get it, it just means you failed. That's what it means to swim with big fishes in a big pond. 

[Yatagarasu]

11 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Alright then. I stand corrected. But if this is the case, there's even less reason for younger skaters who only have youth and potential that has yet to be realized on their side to think they should be given a chance just because they are young and has potential, if even those with achievements under their belts don't get any and has to prove themselves as long as they are healthy enough to. So I don't get the worry that others seem to have. If Takahashi does better than them, he deserves to go so far as he is able to.

 

Kazuki Tomono, the main candidate for #3, had actually earned his place for Worlds last (this past 2017/18) season, and he participated in Milan. If he hadn't skated as he did Japan wouldn't have three spots this season; he finished fifth overall actually. So I think he's proven quite a bit so far.

Anyway, nobody wants anything for Kazuki without him earning his spot yet again but at the same time, Dai needs to do so as well, regardless of his own considerable reputation. If he is better than Kazuki, or whoever, major props to him. At the same time, if Kazuki is better, then that should be that too even if the one he boots is Daisuke Takahashi himself. And that, we'll have to wait and see.

[Fay]

Kazuki was fantastic at the Worlds. The highlight of the night for me - surpassing even the fabled six quads in a program. 

[Yatagarasu]

Just now, Fay said:

Kazuki was fantastic at the Worlds. The highlight of the night for me - surpassing even the fabled six quads in a program. 

 

Same! 
I love that program, I actually go back to it quite often. It's why I am really enthusiastic about him stabilizing the 4T and the new program with Misha, and well he's enthusiastic too!

He's got two GPs, so the only potential issue might be PCS if JSF ends up sitting on their hands, which, possible. Fingers crossed in any case, I really like him and having a good GP season would be a big confidence boost for him. 

[Katt]

43 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I mean, aren't his JNats 17 and 18 as well as his recent Olympic qualifications technically byes, since he didn't compete in the preceding year's Nats which also acted as qualifying comps? Or am I understanding the term wrong? Because that could be a real possibility. I'll admit, I think my understanding of quite a few aspects of the sport is still quite rudimentary. So feel free to correct me if I'm very wrong.

No, its not a bye. His WC17 and OG18 spot earn by his medal at previous WC and his season's best and world standing. Nationals is not the only qualifying comp, the international results do play a big part. This is criteria for 4CC/WC/OG spot :

 1/Japanese National Champion.

2/ Silver and bronze medalists at Nationals or top 2 Japanese skaters at the GPF.

3/  Above, or skaters who placed 4th-6th at Nationals, and skaters whose world standing/season’s best is within the top 3 among Japanese skaters. 

Yuzuru satisfy 2/ and 3/ for his 4CC/WC17 spot and the 3/ for his OG spot. So he did earn his spot by JSF's rule. 

 

As for JSF gave him seed position for Nationals twice, he can get a bye when he compete at senior B or GP. If skaters compete at a international comp around the regional's time (1 or 2 week before/after) and reach the nessesary points,  it will be consider as a bye.  When JSF give Yuzuru a bye for nationals, it actually they save themselves from lots of work if he compete at regionals. When Mao comeback in 2015, she want to do regionals but the local fed couldnt arrange big arena for a big star so they use Japan Open instead.  And keep in mind, JO is not even a ISU event. 

 

[Neenah]

1 minute ago, Fay said:

Kazuki was fantastic at the Worlds. The highlight of the night for me - surpassing even the fabled six quads in a program. 

He was great and I really hope this season would be good for him as well. He has struggled a lot in the past but still persevered, he deserves some love now  

 

I wish Takahashi good luck as well. I am a newer fan so I did not watch him when he was competing and don't have any emotional attachment as many others here do, but I will keep an eye on him this season. Hope he gets a good, satisfactory end to his competitive career.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

40 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

 

Kazuki Tomono, the main candidate for #3, had actually earned his place for Worlds last (this past 2017/18) season, and he participated in Milan. If he hadn't skated as he did Japan wouldn't have three spots this season; he finished fifth overall actually. So I think he's proven quite a bit so far.

Anyway, nobody wants anything for Kazuki without him earning his spot yet again but at the same time, Dai needs to do so as well, regardless of his own considerable reputation. If he is better than Kazuki, or whoever, major props to him. At the same time, if Kazuki is better, then that should be that too even if the one he boots is Daisuke Takahashi himself. 

 

He earned his spot at Worlds, but the pond at JNats was smaller then, with the biggest fish away nursing battle wounds. I know this sounds harsh but that's the reality of it. The gap between Japan's top 2 and the next best few is just too wide. Why deny that fact?

While it doesn't change the fact that he has a lot of potential, if he lives up further to it with Takahashi back in the picture, doing even better than he did at Milan, then he'll be able to come up ahead without worries, just like Hanyu and Uno. But how he measures up against Takahashi and vice versa is unknown at this point, and can go either way. Tomono still has the advantage of being active, young and having a good last major outing. Takahashi is older and is coming back from a 4-year hiatus. Sounds like there's nothing to worry about.

 

But if Takahashi comes up on top despite all his disadvantages, well that means Tomono still has a lot to work on. And it's not just young skaters but Tanaka has to watch his back as well. If Takahashi delivers (with quads) his chances are slimmer too.

 

All in all, to the best man goes the spoil. And that means everyone, including both hanyu and uno.

[hoodie axel]

18 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Kazuki Tomono, the main candidate for #3, had actually earned his place for Worlds last (this past 2017/18) season, and he participated in Milan. If he hadn't skated as he did Japan wouldn't have three spots this season; he finished fifth overall actually. So I think he's proven quite a bit so far.

But he deserved the Silver. It's exactly, again, what I fear in this sport, with Daisuke coming back. 

[hoodie axel]

4 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

But if Takahashi comes up in top despite all his disadvantages, well that means Tomono still has a lot to work on. And it's not just young skaters but Tanaka has to watch his back as well. If Takahashi delivers (with quads) his chances are slimmer too.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. More a fear that he might be propped up no matter what, given the precedent of Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

20 分, Kattさんが言いました:

No, its not a bye. His WC17 and OG18 spot earn by his medal at previous WC and his season's best and world standing. Nationals is not the only qualifying comp, the international results do play a big part. This is criteria for 4CC/WC/OG spot :

 1/Japanese National Champion.

2/ Silver and bronze medalists at Nationals or top 2 Japanese skaters at the GPF.

3/  Above, or skaters who placed 4th-6th at Nationals, and skaters whose world standing/season’s best is within the top 3 among Japanese skaters. 

Yuzuru satisfy 2/ and 3/ for his 4CC/WC17 spot and the 3/ for his OG spot. So he did earn his spot by JSF's rule. 

 

As for JSF gave him seed position for Nationals twice, he can get a bye when he compete at senior B or GP. If skaters compete at a international comp around the regional's time (1 or 2 week before/after) and reach the nessesary points,  it will be consider as a bye.  When JSF give Yuzuru a bye for nationals, it actually they save themselves from lots of work if he compete at regionals. When Mao comeback in 2015, she want to do regionals but the local fed couldnt arrange big arena for a big star so they use Japan Open instead.  And keep in mind, JO is not even a ISU event. 

 

 

Thank you! This is very enlightening! I get it now. ^_^ Come to think of it, if there are more than one spot, then other factors besides Nationals placing come into play. Hanyu actually qualified for the third spot in all the traditional sense. Can't believe I completely forgot about that. Sorry!

 

But I'm confused now. Judging from @Yatagarasu's words, his Nats entries aren't byes but according to you, they are. Which is it now?

 

15 分, hoodie axelさんが言いました:

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. More a fear that he might be propped up no matter what.

 

Oh you mean people wanting to see him compete in the int'l circuit so badly they hold down others who actually did better than him. I guess that's always a factor. In that case, these younger skaters are going to have to really bring their A game in the GP and build their reps up as much as they possibly can there. I mean, the guy's got the right to compete again and if the judges want to prop him up, it's on them. But this also means these young skaters now have to fight harder, which I see as a good thing. They've got an opportunity to come out on top still and give local judges less excuses to lowball them if they deliver well enough on the int'l circuit  since Takahashi isn't going to be in the GP. Or most of it. For now.

[Katt]

Just now, hoodie axel said:

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. More a fear that he might be propped up no matter what.

I don't think so. JSF or domestic judges won't generous if he doesn't deliver on TES, especially he's out for 4 years. Fair or not, that's the truth

[Yatagarasu]

1 minute ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

He earned his spot at Worlds, but the pond at JNats was smaller then, with the biggest fish away nursing battle wounds. I know this sounds harsh but that's the reality of it. The gap between Japan's top 2 and the next best few is just too wide. Why deny that fact?

 

Who is denying it? 

Kazuki took part in the Nationals such as they were, earned a spot and ended up fifth at the World Championships 2018. That wasn't a small pond. 

 

Quote

While it doesn't change the fact that he has a lot of potential, if he lives up further to it with Takahashi back in the picture, doing even better than he did at Milan, then he'll be able to come up ahead without worries, just like Hanyu and Uno. But how he measures up against Takahashi and vice versa is unknown at at this point, and can go either way. Tomono still has the advantage of being active, young and having a good last major outing. Takahashi is older and is coming back from a 4-year hiatus. Sounds like there's nothing to worry about.

 

Actually, I wouldn't say no worries at all. It all depends on the judges after all. We'll see how they skate and how they score them, all of them.

Also I am not sure what - doing better than he did in Milan- means exactly? How do you know that Takahashi will perform better than Kazuki did in Milan?

BTW technically we don't know how anybody measures against Takahashi or rather how he measures against the current skaters. He seems to hope to catch up to Yuzuru and Shoma after all, so who knows right?

 

Quote

But if Takahashi comes up in top despite all his disadvantages, well that means Tomono still has a lot to work on. And it's not just young skaters but Tanaka has to watch his back as well. If Takahashi delivers (with quads) his chances are slimmer too.

 

Ah see, I don't think Takahashi has only disadvantages. 

There are plenty of advantages in being Daisuke Takahashi backed by Kansai. He has a major reputation from before, backing and the whole retire in front of his own audience sentiment. Preferably at Worlds. And that has its own part to play while Kazuki can very easily get the whole, he has time, spiel. It's a story old as time.

 

Anyway, as long as it is the skating itself, as it truly was, that decides who goes and who stays, I'm sure it'll be fine. 

[xeyra]

Wouldn't Dai need to have international competition minimum TES to be able to do Worlds? He'd need to do an international B comp at some point for the minimum TES otherwise it doesn't matter what his ranking at nationals is, he wouldn't be able to go to Worlds.

[Yatagarasu]

@xeyra Yes, he does need it but I don't think it's an issue. One Senior B and voila plus it's good experience for him in any case, considering the big break.

 

25 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

But he deserved the Silver. It's exactly, again, what I fear in this sport, with Daisuke coming back. 

 

Yes, well. 

This is why the GPs are going to be so important. If I remember well, Kazuki's PCS at Worlds was just below 80 which is essentially a huge issue. He was a new name but it won't rise even if he improves and with this 5th place; he needs more. So these two GPs are going to be really important for him to get a few more points there before he's facing Japanese judges. I think Dai won't go below Chiddy's PCS no matter what he does, so that's a pretty big difference even if Kazuki gets the second quad by then. I don't know though if JSF will bother with giving him a push, especially now. As we've seen with the ladies, if they don't want to, they won't. 

 

Dai is saying he wants two kinds of quads btw. But with the new SOV, just the one quad might be enough to get that third spot, depending on the judging. 

 

 

 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

38 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

 

Who is denying it? 

Kazuki took part in the Nationals such as they were, earned a spot and ended up fifth at the World Championships 2018. That wasn't a small pond. 

 

WC wasn't. It never is. But Nats 17 was. I was talking about the latter because that's what's important here, since we're talking about who gets to go to the next WC. And it's hard to imagine Takahashi not gunning for a spot himself if he intends to do well at Nats. Unless he is solely focusing on performance without much care for the results, and only wants to see how he measures up against others when his focus has shifted, which is what he seems to be alluding to.

 

38 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

Also I am not sure what - doing better than he did in Milan- means exactly? How do you know that Takahashi will perform better than Kazuki did in Milan?

 

I wasn't talking about Takahashi. I was talking about Tomono. If he does better at JNats 18 than what he already did at Milan, Takahashi may pose less of threat, no matter how well he does.

 

38 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

BTW technically we don't know how anybody measures against Takahashi or rather how he measures against the current skaters. He seems to hope to catch up to Yuzuru and Shoma after all, so who knows right?

 

Yeah. Not happening. Not how the universe works, even with the miracles it bestows upon its inhabitants sometimes. Unless these other two have a very off day, even if he gains another quad to bring the total up to two, the best he can hope for is finishing behind them and ahead of others. But even that isn't a sure thing. So I certainly hope that isn't what he's seriously hoping for. Because then his focus wouldn't have shifted at all, like he claimed, and he'd be setting himself up for more bitter disappointment. But if his focus isn't the same any longer, then he may just find himself drawing up very close behind within local standings...but certainly not the world.

 

38 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

Ah see, I don't think Takahashi has only disadvantages. 

There are plenty of advantages in being Daisuke Takahashi backed by Kansai. He has a major reputation from before, backing and the whole retire in front of his own audience sentiment. Preferably at Worlds. 

 

Yeah, he does have those. But at the end of the day, those mean nothing if he can't manage physically.

 

38 分, Yatagarasuさんが言いました:

Anyway, as long as it is the skating itself, as it truly was, that decides who goes and who stays, I'm sure it'll be fine. 

 

True dat.