General Skating Chat

[Floria]

hace 1 minuto , xeyra said:

 

Yeah, apparently his planned content layout actually has the 4Lz as the last jump pass. He's out-crazying the anime... 

And when I think about the PCS he'll get if clean 

[xeyra]

18 minutes ago, Floria said:

And when I think about the PCS he'll get if clean 

 

The SP PCS are a different animal than FS PCS. They're a lot more bunched up together. While high 8s in the FS would give a score in the high 80s, which is still about 10 points away from a high 9s score, in a SP they give you a score of about 43-44, which comparatively to a high 9s score makes for very little difference. So Nathan might reach a low 9s score of 45-46 in the SP when clean, and with his BV it can be very good for him. The FS score, though, that'll be the differential factor between men. We'll see his FS today or tomorrow (I forget which day it is) and we'll see what his 'base' PCS score will be there. 

 

Edit: Whether he should be getting high 8s/low 9s or not, that's another thing altogether that I'm not going to touch. 

[axelnojutsu]

4 hours ago, meoima said:

lowest score got thrown out so the second lowest got counted. So yes Japanese federation should be aware. The American know of Shoma's cheated jumps and no steps before quads and the huge amount of 2 foot skating that Shoma is displaying. The American know and all the American and the Canadian and their fellow will do is easy, just score it correctly to the rules and it will all matter. 

If all that the American and Canadian feds were going to do is make all the judges do their work right, I'd welcome them as my new overlords tbh 

[Xen]

3 hours ago, CupidsBow said:

 

@Xen god Deniss' PCS was a joke. 

..Ugh, don't get me started, I watched a couple more of the videos of the SP since I had work during the live stream. Deniss's SP presentation wise, was the only one I think I actually liked, and the last spin was interesting (that sit pancake position is not easy to maintain). It had speed, elegance,  and a certain lightness that some of the other men lacked (maybe it's his long legs). The rest I felt like I was forced to like, cause logically I should not dislike it....

[xeyra]

22 minutes ago, axelnojutsu said:

If all that the American and Canadian feds were going to do is make all the judges do their work right, I'd welcome them as my new overlords tbh 

 

I wouldn't trust the American and Canadian feds judges too much either. They're not likely to be any more generous to Yuzu. 

[axelnojutsu]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I wouldn't trust the American and Canadian feds judges too much either. They're not likely to be any more generous to Yuzu. 

yeah that's what I mean "if they were to.." 

[meoima]

13 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I wouldn't trust the American and Canadian feds judges too much either. They're not likely to be any more generous to Yuzu. 

At Yuzuru's very best, even if they hate him, all they they can do is the same as what they did at WC 2017 and we all knew the result. Yuzuru does not need too much generosity. Because his jumps and transitions always follow the guidelines, they can do nothing but giving rewards to it even though they dread giving him +3.

[xeyra]

13 minutes ago, meoima said:

At Yuzuru's very best, even if they hate him, all they they can do is the same as what they did at WC 2017 and we all knew the result. Yuzuru does not need too much generosity. Because his jumps and transitions always follow the guidelines, they can do nothing but giving rewards to it even though they dread giving him +3.

 

Yeah, agreed. There's only so much you can underscore a clean Yuzu (like the Mexican judge who gave 0 to the 3A at 4CC, I hope that one got rammed at the Judges review, though I doubt it) but I do think any little bit of missed GOE he should have probably received will weigh more this season when BVs are rising. 

[meoima]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, agreed. There's only so much you can underscore a clean Yuzu (like the Mexican judge who gave 0 to the 3A at 4CC, I hope that one got rammed at the Judges review, though I doubt it) but I do think any little bit of missed GOE he should have probably received will weigh more this season when BVs are rising. 

Yuzuru also raises his BV. Judges will not underscore Yuzuru this season though. They had a reason last season because he lost WC 2015 and 2016. His programs last season were quite disliked as well.

 

But now he is the reigning WC, with programs they can not deny, they will not underscore him. What they will certainly do is to give candies to everyone, so everyone will get huge scores even though they might not deserve much. But that's life.

 

For example some certain skaters just skated at Lombardia without good transitions and steps and still get the same benefits as thought who incorporate those moves into their programs. My friend was laughing like: "Hey, that's a fake mohawk right, does it count? No? Hey I count 29 crossovers in total, maybe more? ISU has no shame right?"

 

Anyway, by Olympic, everyone will get 2 and 3 anyway so it is not likely a good jump from Yuzuru will get 0. The men layout is risky and those who do not experience Olympic does not know this. I worked at a stadium for 2 years during college life, and I have seen how athletes from kids to adults messed up at low level competitions, let a lone the most important and most viewed ones. The key is not highest BV but the highest stability.

 

In short, Yuzuru understands this very well, that's why he chose the programs he did. He needs to be at the most stable condition, to skate clean as much as possible, make least mistakes as much as possible. That's why skaters are reusing their programs. And the latest is Osmond has just comes back to her SP last season. And my friend in Canada already predicted it one month before this. She was like: "I assure you Osmond will reuse her SP last season!" And she did.

[CupidsBow]

1 hour ago, axelnojutsu said:

If all that the American and Canadian feds were going to do is make all the judges do their work right, I'd welcome them as my new overlords tbh 

 

that's wishful thinking tbh. we're probs gonna see real whacked out judging with Americans and Canadians being strict on Asian skaters, in the middle of Europeans and generous to US and Canadian skaters, Japanese favouring their own skaters and being harsher to the US/Can skaters, European judges favouring Europeans, being middle ground on US/Can and being harsh to Asian skaters.

 

And the Korean judges being comparatively even handed since they tend to score somewhat sensibly anyway.

 

If Yuzu does a clean skate, with his 'clean' practically always being amazing quality on every element, there would need to be some obviously poor judging to deny him WRs and gold medals. So, as his fan, meh. If he's less lucky though I can see judges really raking him over the coals maybe but I'm really not worried about Yuzu's judging when he has the rep, the quads and the actual content.

 

I'm not with some of you on the Shoma hate train but I do wish scoring was fairer. PCS scoring is a mess with the reputation-based scoring, the PCS corridors and the bonus points all around for landing all your quads (unless your name is Boyang Jin I guess). The current GOE system would work better if judges applied it better. As much as Nathan's SP is an improvement on last years, the inflation is a bit much and I like Shoma and his SP but he's still in the process of gelling with the music and that wasn't his best performance. 

 

If the ISU really wants to get FS to be taken more seriously as a sport and attract more fans they need to fix the judging because it's easily the worst part. Lowering BVs and changing GOE isn't going to do shit if the judges are still arbitrarily giving out points for effort to whoever has built a rep or they personally like. It bothers me that the ISU is bitching about there being a lack of artistry because of the quad race but don't award pcs to skaters that earned it, because they don;t have the wow factor of quads or the rep of the top 6. Deniss deserved better.

[xeyra]

I would one day really like to see a scoring sheet giving 7.5 on SS but 9 on IN... Or alternatively, 9.50 in SS but 8 in PE, for example. That'd be fun. 

[meoima]

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

I would one day really like to see a scoring sheet giving 7.5 on SS but 9 on IN... Or alternatively, 9.50 in SS but 8 in PE, for example. That'd be fun. 

I was interpreting one ISU seminar in which the ISU specialist said this: "You'd better to keep the gap in between 0.25 to 0.5. Gap like 1 or above is too big in factoring." 

Judges will not give you 7 in SS but 9 in IN because it's against what they were trained... They have to make the number events. That's why the game of PCS is dangerous. Once you get above 90 PCS, you will not get lower than that for most of the time. Judges give out scores based on tier. Not on actual skills. For example someone can do 60 crossovers and still get above 90 PCS because judges count them in as medal contenders.

[xeyra]

Just now, meoima said:

I was translating one ISU class in which the ISU specialist said this: "You'd better to keep the gap in between 0.25 to 0.5. Gap like 1 or above is too big in factoring." 

Judges will not give you 7 in SS but 9 in IN because it's against what they were trained... They have to make the number events. That's why the game of PCS is dangerous. Once you get above 90 PCS, you will not get lower than that for most of the time.

 

Yeah, pretty much the corridor judging is basically trained into them, then. 

[AsteroidB-612]

10 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

I'm not with some of you on the Shoma hate train but I do wish scoring was fairer. PCS scoring is a mess with the reputation-based scoring, the PCS corridors and the bonus points all around for landing all your quads (unless your name is Boyang Jin I guess). The current GOE system would work better if judges applied it better. As much as Nathan's SP is an improvement on last years, the inflation is a bit much and I like Shoma and his SP but he's still in the process of gelling with the music and that wasn't his best performance. 

You know hate is such a strong word and I don't know who you are referring to when you said that some of us are on a hate train but personally, I did not hate Shoma, and actually quite enjoyed his performances of LOCO at 4cc and world's last season. But the judging he received as of late really is making me see him in unfavable light more and more...

 

It's easy to say not to blame the skater if it's the judging that's the problem, but can you fault another skater's fan for not being warm towards Shoma after they see this unfair treatment? If you look at how hard the uncles and Yuzu before him (and Deniss now) had to work for several seasons and competition to raise those PCS and GOE scores, isn't it only natural that fans of these skaters become resentful and salty when we see that the judges are throwing candies at a performance even shoma himself knew wasn't up to par(he said in the interview after that he missed some steps after jumps and the choreography didn't feel internalized yet )? 

 

If ISU is trying to raise popularity by flaming fan war with unfair judging, I think it will succeed this season if they keep on doing this kind of inflation for Shoma and Nathan.

[meoima]

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, pretty much the corridor judging is basically trained into them, then. 

it is a mess which the Russian coach who trained me during the seminar said: "They replaced the old system with something even worse because the same people do the judging."