General Skating Chat

[CupidsBow]

Ta da, I added a little bit of program info for the top dudes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IpeTJ8stTS8TQkD6xBuWuXFzj41uZVkMiDnYJjEVB1g/edit#gid=1512203578

 

For the SP I included stsq and spin level rates and total points awarded as a...who has the best non-jump elements type thing, I added the info @fireovertheice posted here for the fs with permission ^^ I might try to fill in the gaps myself but I suspect I might make a lot of errors.

If you can think of anything else you'd be interested in being added to this section/this sheet let me know~

[xeyra]

8 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

Ta da, I added a little bit of program info for the top dudes
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IpeTJ8stTS8TQkD6xBuWuXFzj41uZVkMiDnYJjEVB1g/edit#gid=1512203578

 

For the SP I included stsq and spin level rates and total points awarded as a...who has the best non-jump elements type thing, I added the info @fireovertheice posted here for the fs with permission ^^ I might try to fill in the gaps myself but I suspect I might make a lot of errors.

If you can think of anything else you'd be interested in being added to this section/this sheet let me know~

 

I think Yuzu's max BV planned is actually 111.26 in the FS? And 51.01 in the SP. 

[CupidsBow]

9 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I think Yuzu's max BV planned is actually 111.26?

 

You are right, I am sleepy lmao.

 

I fixed a few? I honestly have no idea how I managed to mess up the BVs. I'll go through them and double check BV and Max TES tomorrow when it's...not 11pm

eta. Unless anyone wants to dump what needs fixing on me. I think you should be abl to leave comments on the sheet. idk. Or pm me.

[xeyra]

4 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

You are right, I am sleepy lmao.

 

I fixed a few? I honestly have no idea how I managed to mess up the BVs. I'll go through them and double check BV and Max TES tomorrow when it's...not 11pm

eta. Unless anyone wants to dump what needs fixing on me. I think you should be abl to leave comments on the sheet. idk. Or pm me.

 

I can check them out too and see if there's anything that should be corrected, but to be honest with Nathan and Vincent it's super hard to have specific BVs because they change their layouts ALL the DAMN time.  And even Shoma is catching that bug lately. 

[CupidsBow]

2 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I can check them out too and see if there's anything that should be corrected, but to be honest with Nathan and Vincent it's super hard to have specific BVs because they change their layouts ALL the DAMN time.  And even Shoma is catching that bug lately. 

 

yeah i tried to work it out by looking at protocols and trying to figure out what they were intending to do XD I should just save the next time planed content is released or go hunting for the most recent planned content sheets but......they aren;t always accurate either when you have nathan writing down whatever jumps and just 'spin' as a placeholder instead of...what...kind of spin...

[Xen]

I'm kind of curious for people's ideas on this:

Hypothetically, there are 2 Yuzuru's, both skate the same program clean with only one cavaet. Yuzuru A has a 5-quad layout, Yuzuru B has a triples only layout. As nothing else has changed, transitions etc are all the same. Do you think both Yuzuru A and Yuzuru B should get the same scores on PCs across the board, on everything? Why or why not?

 

I'm asking this because it would be interesting to see which PCs scores could and maybe should factor in the difficulty of a program in its jump technical content, and which ones should not. Part of this is because harder jumps do require more stamina, so if a quad layout that is more tiring and harder manages to achieve the transitions and feeling of an all triples programs, then should it be rewarded a bit more in PCS? And if so, which ones would be appropriate? 

 

[MrPudding]

 

[xeyra]

10 minutes ago, Xen said:

I'm kind of curious for people's ideas on this:

Hypothetically, there are 2 Yuzuru's, both skate the same program clean with only one cavaet. Yuzuru A has a 5-quad layout, Yuzuru B has a triples only layout. As nothing else has changed, transitions etc are all the same. Do you think both Yuzuru A and Yuzuru B should get the same scores on PCs across the board, on everything? Why or why not?

 

I'm asking this because it would be interesting to see which PCs scores could and maybe should factor in the difficulty of a program in its jump technical content, and which ones should not. Part of this is because harder jumps do require more stamina, so if a quad layout that is more tiring and harder manages to achieve the transitions and feeling of an all triples programs, then should it be rewarded a bit more in PCS? And if so, which ones would be appropriate? 

 

 

Obviously most(?) of us here would probably say yes, PCS should be the same and not depend on TES. This is why so many people think Misha or Jason Brown are underscored in PCS comparatively, even when clean.

But I don't think ISU judges would. Not until they do go forward with their 'artistic program'.

 

Edit: In fact, maybe a less intense program could actually increase transitions. You'd need less time to set up quads, more time for one-foot skating and transitions. So maybe it would actually balance out to the difficulty in the end?

[Xen]

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Obviously most(?) of us here would probably say yes, PCS should be the same and not depend on TES. This is why so many people think Misha or Jason Brown are underscored in PCS comparatively, even when clean. 

But I don't think ISU judges would. Not until they do go forward with their 'artistic program'.

That "artistic program" was what drove me to question this issue actually. Because if an artistic program does not care about spin levels, jump BVs etc, should Yuzuru B, win out over Yuzuru A? I think a lot of us would actually find that odd.  And does skating skills and even transitions scores, factor in technical content? 

 

What I meant was, given that everything else is the same, including the number of transitions, could a 5-quad layout of Yuzuru A, deserve ever, higher scores in any PCS categories, over a triples only program with the same number of transitions. Because hypothetically, the 5-quad program is harder theoretically, to achieve the same amount due to stamina and speed requirements. It has less breathing space to achieve the same impression as a triples-only program. So would it not, in theory, that a triples only program need to go slightly more than a quad-layout program, to be counted as impressive, simply because it has more "breathing space" for the skater to "show more?"

 

Anyways, just going devil's advocate here. And I like Brown, Rippon and Misha, and I find them underscored because they are not being evaluated in the right "bandwidth" for me, at least. 

[xeyra]

21 minutes ago, Xen said:

That "artistic program" was what drove me to question this issue actually. Because if an artistic program does not care about spin levels, jump BVs etc, should Yuzuru B, win out over Yuzuru A? I think a lot of us would actually find that odd.  And does skating skills and even transitions scores, factor in technical content? 

 

What I meant was, given that everything else is the same, including the number of transitions, could a 5-quad layout of Yuzuru A, deserve ever, higher scores in any PCS categories, over a triples only program with the same number of transitions. Because hypothetically, the 5-quad program is harder theoretically, to achieve the same amount due to stamina and speed requirements. It has less breathing space to achieve the same impression as a triples-only program. So would it not, in theory, that a triples only program need to go slightly more than a quad-layout program, to be counted as impressive, simply because it has more "breathing space" for the skater to "show more?"

 

Anyways, just going devil's advocate here. And I like Brown, Rippon and Misha, and I find them underscored because they are not being evaluated in the right "bandwidth" for me, at least. 

 

But wouldn't the TES decide who'd win in the end if both programs were part of the current system and rules and had the same PCS? Wouldn't the difficulty already be rewarded in BV/TES?

 

We can't conflate the current rules with what they are proposing. If they go forward with the artistic and athletic program, they'd be graded independently of each other. They'd have different measures and grading, and maybe Yuzuru A and Yuzuru B could score well enough in their respective program.  

[fireovertheice]

@Xen I am sure I read a question you posed to me about the time of Yuzuru's one foot skating in Trans. I and Trans. II in comparison to the others that now is disappeared by your post: it is so ? Just to know because if not, this means that I have to take a pause from FS and the Planet !

Anyway, on the basis of this your supposed question and of the suggestion of @xeyra I have updated the table posted before: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

 

Let me know if in this way is better.

So you can realise in an easier way the Yuzuru is skating on one foot for major time lenght in each segment, with the exception of the transition between jumps in the second part, where he is in the average (only Kolyada has a little bit more). This is understandable because this season he is planning to put there the 2 quads + 2 combos and the 2nd axel.

 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

@Xen I am sure I read a question you posed to me about the time of Yuzuru's one foot skating in Trans. I and Trans. II in comparison to the others that now is disappeared by your post: it is so ? Just to know because if not, this means that I have to take a pause from FS and the Planet !

Anyway, on the basis of this your supposed question and of the suggestion of @xeyra I have updated the table posted before: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

 

Let me know if in this way is better.

So you can realise in an easier way the Yuzuru is skating on one foot for major time lenght in each segment, with the exception of the transition between jumps in the second part, where he is in the average (only Kolyada has a little bit more). This is understandable because this season he is planning to put there the 2 quads + 2 combos and the 2nd axel.

 

 

Thank you so much for your work. The updated table clarifies a lot more. The differences can be quite big! 

 

I'm really curious about adding Javi and Patrick to the mix, when you're done checking them as you mentioned you were doing. If I remember your earlier counting of their programs, they'd be more likely to be similar to Yuzu in terms of % and time skating in 1 foot?

[meoima]

Quads mean higher PCS. That is for sure. Judges would think without quads, skaters can easily add more transitions. This is what’s wrong with the judging. They pretend that quadters can do beautiful transitions if they don’t have to do quads. The reality isn’t that easy. 

[xeyra]

@fireovertheice

I don't want to abuse your goodwill in doing all of this, but would it be feasible to analyse the FS of someone who doesn't do quads (or attempts only 1) for a comparative view? I'd suggest Jason Brown, for example. I think that might be interesting. No worries if that's more than what you feel like doing right now. I know this is not easy work! 

[xeyra]

26 minutes ago, meoima said:

Quads mean higher PCS. That is for sure. Judges would think without quads, skaters can easily add more transitions. This is what’s wrong with the judging. They pretend that quadters can do beautiful transitions if they don’t have to do quads. The reality isn’t that easy. 

 

There was an interview with Alexander Lakernik, circa 2015, where he expressed concern over ISU judges being overly forgiving of quads in ways they weren't towards triples, to the point they'd over-reward them (I assume the ignoring of SP solo jump steps enters into this). This was in the context of ultra-C elements being introduced more and more into skating. I guess they haven't particularly worked towards changing the way judges deal with quads.