2019–20 Coronavirus Pandemic (COVID-19) Thread

[rockstaryuzu]

Well, ventilation and air circulation are big factors. You're probably safer being completely unmasked outdoors away from people, than sitting at a table, masked, for a prolonged period of time,  indoors with others. But it's a tough call. I would definitely err on the side of caution and mask up if I felt unsafe.

[barbara]

There have been lots lots of posts lately in the General Yuzu thread regarding the vaccination situation in Japan (and it does seem to be improving) but I would like to throw my two-cents in about the need for everyone (except, of course, those with legitimate medical concerns) to be vaccinated ASAP.

In the states, it has become political, on a number of levels. "You can't tell me that I have to get that shot. Or give my kids that vaccine.  Free country, and all that..."  Well, the truth is that the only THE ONLY reason that smallpox was (nearly) eliminated is because everyone got vaccinated.  Everyone.  And we all need the MMR vaccines to attend school.  It's mandatory.  Yes, there is a small and vocal group that resists that but they are so stunningly wrong.  Measles, rubella (used to be called German measles, yet there was no wholesale harassing of Germans as there has been with covid and people of Asian descent) and mumps are serious serious diseases.  So is chickenpox.  People, children, die from these.  People get brain damage and go blind.  Adults die.  And Rubella is extraordinarily damaging to babies in their first few months in utero.  We ALL have HAD to receive these vaccines as a matter of public health and safety and these amazing works of science have prevented death and permanent injury/damage to millions.  (I actually am old enough to have had those four.)

Would any of these anti-vaxers balk at the polio vaccine?  My god, the polio vaccine was such a stunning development and we lined up to get it.  Polio is horrific.

Just my morning rant on the ant-vax crowd.  No sense of reality.  Or history.  And certainly no concern for public health.

[lajoitko]

The following is not so much about COVID but the international anti vaccine movement. A while ago I watched the Swedish documentary about it. Journalists went undercover and got inside the organization. They interviewed people including the leader, participated on various events and read anti vaccine materials. The documentary was really good, disturbing and scary. I am afraid it has not been released with English subs but its name is Vaccinkrigarna and it has three parts.

 

The anti vaccine movement is very organized and it has members all around the world. They advice their members how to speak about the vaccines and their "dangers" to people who are willing to listen. The main thing I remember from the document is that when the first vaccine programs for small children were introduced, there were cases of autism and other developmental disabilities linked to the vaccines. The big research projects later denied any connections between the vaccines and diagnoses but it took time and the seeds of doubt were planted in people´s minds.

 

Other thing that helps the anti vaccine movement is that people do not trust in science or the authorities as they used to do. The shared personal experiences are valued more and more same as doing the research by your own using not only the official sources but also alternative sources and forming your own opinion based on them. When your child get sick right after the vaccination you search something to blame. The doctors as the scientists can not give you 100 % sure answers and then you start to look for someone with similar experiences. This is a perfect opportunity to spread the anti vaccine propaganda.

 

All of the above also applies to other emerging movements which challenge other scientific truths with their own research and personal experinces.

[gaia]

I'm getting second shot tomorrow  and also they'll tell me when I'll get my third so I finally would be fully vaccinated (so happy)

great hurray for science 
 

[barbara]

1 hour ago, gaia said:

I'm getting second shot tomorrow  and also they'll tell me when I'll get my third so I finally would be fully vaccinated (so happy)

great hurray for science 
 

A third shot? Which vaccine requires three doses?  I anticipate there will be a booster shot this winter for Moderna and Pfizer and J+J, but I didn't know there was a vaccine that required three doses.

But, yes! Glad you're finally getting your second!

[gaia]

8 hours ago, barbara said:

A third shot? Which vaccine requires three doses?  I anticipate there will be a booster shot this winter for Moderna and Pfizer and J+J, but I didn't know there was a vaccine that required three doses.

But, yes! Glad you're finally getting your second!

as far as I know just moderna and just in italy. (and the decision to go for three shots has been taken quite recently)

EDIT: we are going to get a third moderna shot but we don't know yet when  (I was misinformed, I had no intention to give fake news )

[rockstaryuzu]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, barbara said:

Would any of these anti-vaxers balk at the polio vaccine?  My god, the polio vaccine was such a stunning development and we lined up to get it.  Polio is horrific.

Great example. Do you know that the main 'clinical trial' of the first polio vaccine was actually administering it to two million  school children over the first two years of after the vaccine was developed?  Salk successfully tested the vaccine in 1953, and in February 1954 they started injecting it into kids. Yet no one made any complaints that 'the vaccine was developed too quickly' , 'it hasn't been tested enough', 'it's not safe' etc. 

 

Compare that to all of the COVID vaccines, each one of which has been tested on tens of thousands of people before ever being put into widespread use. Yet people will happily get polio vaccine and freak out about COVID 

[barbara]

2 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Great example. Do you know that the main 'clinical trial' of the first polio vaccine was actually administering it to two million  school children over the first two years of after the vaccine was developed?  Salk successfully tested the vaccine in 1953, and in February 1954 they started injecting it into kids. Yet no one made any complaints that 'the vaccine was developed too quickly' , 'it hasn't been tested enough', 'it's not safe' etc. 

 

Compare that to all of the COVID vaccines, each one of which has been tested on tens of thousands of people before ever being put into widespread use. Yet people will happily get polio vaccine and freak out about COVID 

By the time I got my polio vaccine, it was given in a liquid form in a small paper cup.  No taste, as I recall.  People can be such idiots.

[Sombreuil]

Finally got my second jab.   In this city the initial roll out was in the hands of GPs and they got the first dose out fast and efficiently.  By the time the second dose was due other health systems were rolling out first doses for younger people and it took over a month to get a slot.  Thankfully done now.

 

A lot of exaggerated language being used round vaccination, masks etc.  Health workers who think their ‘fundamental rights’ are being infringed by being asked to vaccinate, people on public transport with anti mask ‘rage’, holiday ‘apartheid’ dividing those who can go on holiday with their vaccinations and those who can’t because they don’t have them.  I loathe and despise this intemperate and inaccurate use of these terms in these situations.  A few months ago a columnist in the Times wrote a piece about the adoption of words and phrases used clinically to cover the damage to victims of abuse and those with very serious often untreatable mental illness by celebrities and their therapists to talk about their ‘issues’.  The columnist had recently lost a friend to suicide after a lifelong struggle with mental illness and strongly objected to the inference that the two situations were of equal gravity.  I agreed with her point of view and feel the same way about the Covid stuff.  The use of the word apartheid in this context is ………

[barbara]

12 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

Finally got my second jab.   In this city the initial roll out was in the hands of GPs and they got the first dose out fast and efficiently.  By the time the second dose was due other health systems were rolling out first doses for younger people and it took over a month to get a slot.  Thankfully done now.

 

A lot of exaggerated language being used round vaccination, masks etc.  Health workers who think their ‘fundamental rights’ are being infringed by being asked to vaccinate, people on public transport with anti mask ‘rage’, holiday ‘apartheid’ dividing those who can go on holiday with their vaccinations and those who can’t because they don’t have them.  I loathe and despise this intemperate and inaccurate use of these terms in these situations.  A few months ago a columnist in the Times wrote a piece about the adoption of words and phrases used clinically to cover the damage to victims of abuse and those with very serious often untreatable mental illness by celebrities and their therapists to talk about their ‘issues’.  The columnist had recently lost a friend to suicide after a lifelong struggle with mental illness and strongly objected to the inference that the two situations were of equal gravity.  I agreed with her point of view and feel the same way about the Covid stuff.  The use of the word apartheid in this context is ………

So pleased that you were able to get that second dose.  Like you, I truly am appalled at the insane attitude of the "fundamental rights" crowd.  As I wrote the other day, no one balked at the smallpox vaccine or the polio vaccine.  We are just so damn lucky to live in a time when science can research and produce something that has the sort of efficacy of these vaccines.  I understand the frustration of the incensed.  It's maddening to listen to idiots who deny reality and deny the benefits of science and deny the basic responsibility to our fellows to do what we can to protect public health.

[rockstaryuzu]

14 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

Finally got my second jab.   In this city the initial roll out was in the hands of GPs and they got the first dose out fast and efficiently.  By the time the second dose was due other health systems were rolling out first doses for younger people and it took over a month to get a slot.  Thankfully done now.

 

A lot of exaggerated language being used round vaccination, masks etc.  Health workers who think their ‘fundamental rights’ are being infringed by being asked to vaccinate, people on public transport with anti mask ‘rage’, holiday ‘apartheid’ dividing those who can go on holiday with their vaccinations and those who can’t because they don’t have them.  I loathe and despise this intemperate and inaccurate use of these terms in these situations.  A few months ago a columnist in the Times wrote a piece about the adoption of words and phrases used clinically to cover the damage to victims of abuse and those with very serious often untreatable mental illness by celebrities and their therapists to talk about their ‘issues’.  The columnist had recently lost a friend to suicide after a lifelong struggle with mental illness and strongly objected to the inference that the two situations were of equal gravity.  I agreed with her point of view and feel the same way about the Covid stuff.  The use of the word apartheid in this context is ………

I agree whole-heartedly! Language in general has become more pointed and politicized, with non-objective or inflammatory terms being used to deliberately stir up conflict or incite fear, etc. Or, as you mention, being used to catastrophize decidedly non-catastrophic problems. I find it extremely manipulatory,  especially when used by mainstream media to sway public opinion against a particular group. 

 

 

Good informative video about the delta variant here:

 

 

[barbara]

1 hour ago, hananistellata said:

Do you guys think we will finally get rid of COVID when we achieve herd immunity? I'm slowly losing hope to be honest, I feel really helpless. I know that things will probably not go back to normal completely but at least I wanna feel safe. 

We won't be able to get rid of it completely anymore that we are free of the flu.  As long as there are people who refuse to be vaccinated, there will certainly be a risk to those people.  The rest of us are very unlikely to become seriously ill or be hospitalized even with the latest variants.  The standard seems to be 70% of a population needing to have natural immunity because they had the virus or be vaccinated for us be be considered in "herd immunity".  But, globally, it's going to take a lot longer than it will for those countries able to get vaccines.  And viruses do not respect borders.

I become a little concerned about the variants, but, if you are vaccinated, you can feel safe.   Getting back to"normal" is dependent of those pockets of the population refusing to get vaccinated. But they are also the ones most likely to get seriously ill.

It does look hopeless sometimes, but you are safe.  The hopelessness for me is if we can get enough people vaccinated globally to minimize the threat to the unvaccinated,

[rockstaryuzu]

2 hours ago, hananistellata said:

Do you guys think we will finally get rid of COVID when we achieve herd immunity? I'm slowly losing hope to be honest, I feel really helpless. I know that things will probably not go back to normal completely but at least I wanna feel safe. 

To put this into perspective, in the entire history of the world, there has only ever been one virus that we know for sure we were able to eradicate with vaccination, and that's smallpox. Since 1973, when the last known case of smallpox was recorded, it has been nothing more than a matter of medical history.

 

Every other virus we vaccinate against, still exists and can easily infect the unvaccinated. This is why the entire anti-vax movement is so harmful. All you need is one or two unvaxxed kids in a school population and suddenly measles is a thing, whooping cough is a thing, mumps is a thing. 

 

But we no longer have quarantine for those things because vaccination against them is nearly universal.  We're able to live as if they don't exist. 

 

I think that in places where everybody gets vaccinated, eventually life will return to mostly normal. People will eventually be able to live as if COVID doesn't exist. 

 

But places that have poor vaccination rates will be stuck on the lockdown/quarantine/let's-see-if-it's-safe-yet Rollercoaster for a while

[barbara]

2 hours ago, hananistellata said:

I have a follow-up question. Over time, will COVID get less and less dangerous? I heard that people back in the day could even die if they got the flu but of course that doesn't happen anymore (unless there is some kind of extreme case). Will COVID end up as something like a minor flu with no long-lasting after effects at one point? Another additional question, does the immunity from the COVID vaccines last for a specific amount of time or will I remain immune forever after I get vaccinated?

I don't think even the infectious disease researchers are going to be able to give you anything definitive on this.  People do still die every year from the flu - though not so many this past winter because people were staying home and wearing masks.  And we may need boosters - expecting we will need booster shots annually, at least (like with the flu).  And Covid variants are actually more dangerous that the original, so I don't think the virus itself is showing any sign of becoming minor.  The newer variants are more easily transmissible and more deadly.  But vaccinated people are safe from any serious disease.

[DancingFeather]

1 hour ago, hananistellata said:

Seems like the road to ""normality"" is longer than I had hoped. 

A year ago, I came to terms with wearing a mask for some months. Thankfully we didn't know the situation will last much longer. For me who have never worn a mask before, it is okay when the mask and social distancing will be a recurring phenomenon during "virus season", I can take that for the new normality. But I am very privileged, most of the people are suffering so much more because of the pandemic.

I just think that what could be your new normality depends on whether the pandemic hit you in a sensitive period of your life or not. Beside the losses, serious cases, mental and financial problems, there is (in my country) for example the younger generation's normality far from before since they (not the university students) didn't get a normal degree - a flaw that remains.

 

In Switzerland cases have been increasing again for a few days most likely because of European Football Championship (public viewing or travelling to matches). Losing interest, ceasing efforts don't culminate in success. Isn't it like that in every field?