General Yuzuru Chat

[shanshani]

37 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

My unasked 2 cents as one of those Fanyus who believed Chen won this WC.

 

Do I think that 20+ margin was acceptable? Not in a million years.

But did Chen won? Yes. Because Yuzu did make mistakes. We can dispute the UR call on his FS' 4S (I personally think it was borderline, certain other top skaters would only get reduction on GOE), but there is no disputing the pop 4S on the SP. Additionally, would I justifiably claim that Yuzu executed every single elements to perfection on Origin? No, I wouldn't, because he didn't.

 

The narrative that Yuzu wouldn't have won even with 2 clean skates is wrong (even if Yuzu himself claimed this, sorry Zu). But the fact is, both his skates were not clean. And that's why he lost. The score is wrong. But Chen's higher BV PLUS Yuzu's mistakes made him lost. Had Chen came from a slightly less powerful feds and had judges be a bit more competent the score wouldn't have that big of a margin, but Chen would have still won. 

 

So, let's see what I believe:

1. Clean back-to-back Yuzu would have won

2. But Yuzu made very costly mistake in SP

3. And his FS wasn't squeaky clean either

4. So, Chen, who made less mistakes that are less costly, won. Even if the margin is an absolute bullshit.

5. I am bitter about it. I want Yuzu to win, but I know he lost, albeit with way smaller margin. I don't think I'm being a fanatical Fanyu or an overly-rational-hence-a-travesty-of-a-fanyu about this. I am just being reasonable, even if my heart is screaming in pain.

Yeah, I'm on the Nathan-won-fairly side as well. Disagree with the margin, but at the end of the day Yuzu did completely botch and element, almost botched another, and had a bunch of tight landings. I'm only posting because I find the "Yuzu couldn't have won" narrative annoying because it's mathematically wrong and easily disprovable. Overall, winning was very unlikely because of the state of his ankle, not because Yuzu doesn't have the talent and scoring potential to go above three twenty something. 4 points in BV is not a big gap.

 

I'm actually not that bitter. Maybe it's because I'm a happy look-on-the-bright-side type of person by nature, but my main takeaway from the competition is that Yuzu's ability to put out a good skate despite massive disadvantages in training time and injury status is amazing. Nathan was better in this competition, but Nathan was in top condition, or near it (not sure what impact his sickness may have had). Yuzu was very far from top condition. So what is there to be bitter about? (Well, other than judges judging incorrectly, but that always happens. And again, I don't think Nathan going over Yuzu is unfair here, only the margins and the practices of the judges in general like the fact that JUMP HEIGHT HAS ZERO CORRELATION WITH GOE.)

 

My main concern is if Yuzu's ankle will hold up now that he's fired up about going toe-to-toe with Nathan. At the end of the day, I think it's a bigger obstacle than bad judging. Yuzu can win in spite of transitions/skating skills being undervalued and judges not caring about GOE bullets. Yuzu can't win if he has a chronic ankle injury and has to skate his competitions on painkillers.

[shanshani]

12 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

There is the perception of that now mainly because of 2 things.

The scores indicate that Nathan has basically closed the PCS and GOE gap that Yuzu had over him.

If Yuzu had been clean would Nathan still get those inflated PCS/GOE? We don't know.

 

Saying Yuzu's jump wasn't his best is also erroneous.

Yes, most of the jumps wasn't a Yuzu-standard jump BUT he still ticked enough GOE bullets for most of his jumps to warrant better GOEs than Nathan.

We're not supposed to judge him against a Yuzu-standard. We're supposed to judge him using the rulebook.

 

Nathan got higher GOEs for his spins, steps, and choreo sequence as well.

His TR marks were in the 9s even though Raf himself admitted that the program had no transitions.

 

I don't think Nate has closed the GOE gap. As you mention, Yuzu's executions weren't very good in comparison to his usual standard, but specifically they weren't very good in the area that judges seem to actually care most about, which is landings. Judges don't care about bullet ticking, that much is clear, so I agree they won't give Yuzu much credit for the bullets he ticks that Nathan doesn't, but Yuzu's landings are usually nicer than Nathans, so I think we can still expect him to get better GOEs if he can land him jumps better than he did at Saitama. Second, there still is a PCS gap, since Yuzu undoubtedly got PCS marks deducted for being tighter than usual/popping or underrotating, yet still scored about the same as Nathan, who was cleaner. Obviously, it isn't much of a gap, but I don't think it has disappeared. I don't think you can conclude from the results of this one competition that the PCS/GOE gap has closed--Nathan's landings were nicer than Yuzu's, Yuzu made mistakes, and the lack of GOE/PCS gap seems to me largely a function of that rather than anything else.

[kaeryth]

4 minutes ago, shanshani said:

I don't think Nate has closed the GOE gap. As you mention, Yuzu's executions weren't very good in comparison to his usual standard, but specifically they weren't very good in the area that judges seem to actually care most about, which is landings. Judges don't care about bullet ticking, that much is clear, so I agree they won't give Yuzu much credit for the bullets he ticks that Nathan doesn't, but Yuzu's landings are usually nicer than Nathans, so I think we can still expect him to get better GOEs if he can land him jumps better than he did at Saitama. Second, there still is a PCS gap, since Yuzu undoubtedly got PCS marks deducted for being tighter than usual/popping or underrotating, yet still scored about the same as Nathan, who was cleaner. Obviously, it isn't much of a gap, but I don't think it has disappeared. I don't think you can conclude from the results of this one competition that the PCS/GOE gap has closed--Nathan's landings were nicer than Yuzu's, Yuzu made mistakes, and the lack of GOE/PCS gap seems to me largely a function of that rather than anything else.

 

Like I said, there is a perception that the gap is now minimal because of the score in this particular competition. Going forward, we still don't know how the scoring here will affect future competitions but the judging here has skewed that perception towards that. Just my two cents on why some people have that pessimistic view that Yuzu wouldn't have won even if he was clean.

 

Spoiler

My honest take is that he still should've won

 

[Umebachi]

I was blown away by Yuzu's Haru-yo-Koi at the gala.  I love his EX pieces, including Notte Stellata, but I always felt he could do even better in his movements and positions.  I saw that in his last HYK performance, he is now reaching that next level of performance that will put him on a trajectory of historic proportion!  Yuzu is in his prime years, still evolving and hungry to learn; his experience with Origin and Otonal has also helped to expand his repertoire of movements and discover more ways to express emotion.  I almost don't care about the WC results, because he is taking FS to a different level of connectivity with the audience.  I see an emergence of his performance, especially Origin, as an exploration into the deep emotional experience of a sacred ritual.  It reminds me of the original performance of a Greek tragedy - and I don't mean tragedy as in "sad" but the literal meaning of tragedy, as in the dramatic art of Trago-Edia - which means a Goat Song, btw! - which brought the whole community together in a deeply meaningful story-telling, a truly sacred performance.  So our cat-loving space kitty has now turned into a performer of Goat Songs and an equine superstar!  Any dog lovers?   

[shanshani]

3 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

Like I said, there is a perception that the gap is now minimal because of the score in this particular competition. Going forward, we still don't know how the scoring here will affect future competitions but the judging here has skewed that perception towards that. Just my two cents on why some people have that pessimistic view that Yuzu wouldn't have won even if he was clean.

 

  Hide contents

My honest take is that he still should've won

 

Oh, sure. Sorry if I'm misreading, I'm procrastinating at work so I'm not being the most careful reader here

[shanshani]

2 minutes ago, Umebachi said:

I was blown away by Yuzu's Haru-yo-Koi at the gala.  I love his EX pieces, including Notte Stellata, but I always felt he could do even better in his movements and positions.  I saw that in his last HYK performance, he is now reaching that next level of performance that will put him on a trajectory of historic proportion!  Yuzu is in his prime years, still evolving and hungry to learn; his experience with Origin and Otonal has also helped to expand his repertoire of movements and discover more ways to express emotion.  I almost don't care about the WC results, because he is taking FS to a different level of connectivity with the audience.  I see an emergence of his performance, especially Origin, as an exploration into the deep emotional experience of a sacred ritual.  It reminds me of the original performance of a Greek tragedy - and I don't mean tragedy as in "sad" but the literal meaning of tragedy, as in the dramatic art of Trago-Edia - which means a Goat Song, btw! - which brought the whole community together in a deeply meaningful story-telling, a truly sacred performance.  So our cat-loving space kitty has now turned into a performer of Goat Songs and an equine superstar!  Any dog lovers?   

Yuzu's EXs are sooo good. There are at least 3 that are legendary-tier imo. 2016 Boston Worlds, 2018 Olympics, and 2019 Saitama

[kaeryth]

4 minutes ago, shanshani said:

Oh, sure. Sorry if I'm misreading, I'm procrastinating at work so I'm not being the most careful reader here

 

No worries. I can see both sides of the arguments and really have no issues with both. In the end it's just a lot of uncertainties and what ifs. What's done is done. We only have the future to look forward to. Frankly, I'm hoping for Yuzu to break the system again as he did in NHK/GPF'15.

[SuperMin]

IMO- this argument about what worlds should have been is a non-starter and just gives the antis more ammunition against Yuzu and Fanyus.

 

I heard a similar argument in the opposite direction after the Olympics, the “what-ifs” if Nathan would have been clean in the short and thousands of then “yuzu would have added the loop”. There was “buts he’s injured so the loop was shaky”. “Too high GOEs” “too high PCS.”  Etc etc etc

 

”what-ifs” should be avoided at all costs because it sounds petty.  If you start to criticize Nathan’s win then you open up the criticism for Yuzu’s win, Just like Yuzu won his 2nd OGM, Nathan won worlds.  Nothing that is said about the scoring will change that fact.  Yuzu knows that, which his why I think he never blames the score or judges. 

 

I agree  that a PERFECTLY CLEAN Yuzu had the potential to win over Nathan’s performed layout, BUT Nathan  can still up his BV and Yuzu knows this. No one knows the results of “what-ifs”.  If Yuzu performed a clean short, Nathan may have added a 5th quad- what if he missed that or has a clean fifth quad....etc etc etc- rabbit hole.

 

i know many Fanyus are still upset and sad (I’m slowly recovering as well 🤕), but I’m thinking how Yuzu has responded to this.  

 

Yuzu , as always, is showing a bit of humility,  humbleness , appreciation of his competitors and self-reflection of how to make himself better, AND look to the future.  He is wise beyond his years. I think we should all consider taking his lead. Again IMO.

[makebelieveup]

1 hour ago, yuzupon said:

My unasked 2 cents as one of those Fanyus who believed Chen won this WC.

 

Do I think that 20+ margin was acceptable? Not in a million years.

But did Chen won? Yes. Because Yuzu did make mistakes. We can dispute the UR call on his FS' 4S (I personally think it was borderline, certain other top skaters would only get reduction on GOE), but there is no disputing the pop 4S on the SP. Additionally, would I justifiably claim that Yuzu executed every single elements to perfection on Origin? No, I wouldn't, because he didn't.

 

The narrative that Yuzu wouldn't have won even with 2 clean skates is wrong (even if Yuzu himself claimed this, sorry Zu). But the fact is, both his skates were not clean. And that's why he lost. The score is wrong. But Chen's higher BV PLUS Yuzu's mistakes made him lost. Had Chen came from a slightly less powerful feds and had judges be a bit more competent the score wouldn't have that big of a margin, but Chen would have still won. 

 

So, let's see what I believe:

1. Clean back-to-back Yuzu would have won

2. But Yuzu made very costly mistake in SP

3. And his FS wasn't squeaky clean either

4. So, Chen, who made less mistakes that are less costly, won. Even if the margin is an absolute bullshit.

5. I am bitter about it. I want Yuzu to win, but I know he lost, albeit with way smaller margin. I don't think I'm being a fanatical Fanyu or an overly-rational-hence-a-travesty-of-a-fanyu about this. I am just being reasonable, even if my heart is screaming in pain.

why does yuzu have to be perfect by his standard to get those GOEs and PCS? its just not fair to keep grading him on how he performed compared to his other perfs instead of grading him on how he performed compared to the rest. if Nathan were to be perfect at his landings imagine the scores he would have gotten even more, so yes, yuzu wasnt getting the perfect scores bc he wasnt clean but nathan didnt have the best landings eithet so thats why he didnt get his nats scores. nathan really closed the gap in pcs and goes now after this comp.

 

to me, nathan's non existing transition and choreo should really have that much of gap between his pcs and yuzu's that it should have closed enough of a gap between their free. should it have closed enough for yuzu to win? im not sure but im sure the margin he won over yuzu was outrageous and the only reason people are justifying for him is due to normalization we see in this sport. ive resigned to the fact that i cant do anything about it but i will never agree that it is ever fair 

 

im done with this comparison bc its only draining my emotion 

[pewirinkle]

TCC 100 Most Handsome Faces of Asia is up!! Guess who made it on the list 

https://krcom.cn/6896222774/episodes/2358773:4350166291928619

 

ofc he didn't simply make it onto the list, HIS OVERACHIEVING GOLDEN SELF GOT 5TH  

[dreamelena]

Hey guys.. again, long time no see!!

I finally caught up (ish) on Worlds (I still haven't got to check the gala perf.).. also glad that Yuzu decided to sit WTT out because he really needs to recuperate still.

 

I actually have a request, I hope it's ok to ask here.. I was chatting online with a friend of mine (not a fs/yuzu fan but we're in the middle of talking about him) and got to the him missing the WTT event. Then she's like 'he (Yuzu) should participate in pair competition too!!' and I jokingly replied that he's got potential and initially wanted to link her some pics/gifs of Yuzu doing what pairs/ice dancer would do (i.e. getting lifted/sbs jump/any sync move with another skater) but I'm limited in my ability to backtrack or find the footage so if any of you can help link me some of those stuff I'd so appreciate!!

 

Thanks before !!

[Fay]

1 hour ago, Umebachi said:

 

Frenchkiss70!  Lovely to meet a fellow dressage rider on the Planet!  Perhaps we should start a new section comparing dressage and FS.  I agree the dressage protocols are not as bad as FS - it has improved a bit and FEI now has live boxes (like FS!) showing scores - but what is much worse is the training of horses and forcing horses to do Grand Prix level movements on incorrect (and non-classical posture) is criminal...don't get me started!  But I am getting off the topic...   

On Yuzu Fairy fan forum on FB, I had an exchange with another dressage person - who had compared Yuzu as a Spanish Riding School Lippizaner vs Nathan as a thoroughbred racer.  I loved the comparison but I responded that in terms of physical look (not performance) I thought Yuzu would be a golden Akhal Teke (hence the photo in my first post) - the most golden and leggiest of the proud equine line.  The other person thought Yuzu could be compared to a golden Lippizaner-Akhal Teke cross, truly a golden unicorn!  I love that visual.   

Isn't amazing that our love for the spacekitty connects us in so many levels and pushes the boundaries of our imagination?  

You mean one of those? 

Spoiler

That’s a nice choice! 

[Umebachi]

1 minute ago, Fay said:

You mean one of those? 

  Hide contents

That’s a nice choice! 

 

Yes, Fay.  Look at the waist!  lol.  Akhal Teke has a surreal look for a horse - seemingly so fragile and thin, and yet, tough as a nail when galloping across the steppelands. 

[Fay]

3 minutes ago, Umebachi said:

 

Yes, Fay.  Look at the waist!  lol.  Akhal Teke has a surreal look for a horse - seemingly so fragile and thin, and yet, tough as a nail when galloping across the steppelands. 

Oh yeah, a most beautiful creature! Quite regal! 

Spoiler

 

[MagicFS]

Wait a second! Here is the comparison of what Yuzu and Nate did in the free skate:

 

Yuzu did 4 quads and 2 triple axels. He had 1 UR and 1 obviously weak landing (on the same jump). Yuzu did the insanely difficult and IMPRESSIVE 4t-3a+SEQ--that should count at least towards his PCS if the base value awarded for it is so absurdly low.

 

Nate did 4 quads, 1 triple axel. He also had 1 UR (not called). He has higher-base-value quads than Yuzu--so I'd say the 4t-3a+SEQ advantage is matched. Cool.

 

Yuzu has far superior skating skills, transitions, composition, and interpretation of the music. His spins and stsq are better.

 

Yuzu lost in that particular event by 10 points.

 

How are people saying that a clean Yuzu would have won? A squeaky clean Yuzu would not have won the free skate with that scoring. And that's completely ridiculous!

Losing in this competition was NOT Yuzuru's fault! Stop making it sound as if he somehow failed.

 

Btw, I could have lived happily with Yuzu's loss in the overall competition if he had won the free skate. But the fact that he didn't win the free skate with what he showed in the free skate is completely unfair and wrong, and very, very worrying when it comes to his future ability to beat Nate (without the technical content upgrades he is planning).