General Yuzuru Chat

[Forcefield]

13 minutes ago, micaelis said:

About Denis Ten, his days are over, IMO, since he didn't even make the cut at PC to advance to the FS.  As far as Yuzu's rivals right now I think it's Shoma who's likely to carry the day if they're looking for completeness (although next to Yuzu he and virtually everyone else is still skating novice-level).  Actually the skater I'm most concerned about we don't have to worry about until the 2020/21 season.  That will be Stephen Gogolev's first season on the senior level and he is now almost certainly Canada's greatest hope for Olympic gold in Beijing.  I know he has growing pains in his near future but he's been training with Brian about as long as Yuzu has and he's had plenty of opportunity to see how Yuzu does things and right now he's actually able (according to Brian) to do all the quads except the axel, putting him a step ahead of Yuzu there.

 

I would think Brian has already been prepping Stephen (both physically and psychologically) for the challenges coming up as he continues to grow.  Brian remembers the problems with Nam and is likely taking his experiences there and applying them to Stephen.  What he can't teach Stephen, however, is Yuzu's phenomenal sensitivity to music of all kinds, something that is largely genetic (one of the reasons I think Yuzu given a couple of inches and training since age five would have him a world-class danseur today).  While everyone has been thinking that Boyang would take the place of Javi at TCC (something which now, according to the Japan Times, is not going to happen) I think Stephen is already probably evolving into that role, since I've seen a couple clips of Yuzu training with Brian and observed Stephen in the background on the ice.  In short they're not strangers to each other and probably haven't been for years.

 

As to how the judges treat Yuzu in comparison to his competitors one should keep in mind that Yuzu is figure-skating's cash cow right now.  He fills the seats and they are not inclined to go too strongly against that enormous and impassioned fan-base of his.  In fact I think their worst nightmare is what will happen when he retires from competition.  Take into account when looking at the challenges facing Yuzu in these next seasons leading up to Beijing (assuming he's decided to try for a threepeat) that the rules changes are almost tailor-made for Yuzu.  He will benefit most from them since the PC points now become much more significant in terms of the final score.  Some of his competitors, I am sure, are now scrambling to acquire those basic skating skills Brian had drilled into Yuzu when he first came to TCC and which are now automatic for Yuzu.  It's the depth of those skills and Yuzu's ability to remember total body detail in the programs choreographed for him that make him able to skate programs much more densely choreographed than those of his rivals. 

 

As for others at TCC and their effect on Yuzu, it is actually the reverse we are probably looking at.  Jason is there now to acquire more polish, it would seem, but I think also he wants to see how Yuzu is able to integrate his technical prowess with his artistic aplomb.  Jason's successes so far have been almost entirely based on his PC elements.  While that is not his stated reasons for the move to TCC I think he really wants to be there to see how Yuzu goes about achieving what he achieves. 

 

Very few people on the Planet here, however, have commented on what effect Zhenya will have on Yuzu, and also his effect on her.  While the official spin has been that Zhenya moved to TCC to have greater autonomy as to the music she skates to and the choreographic content, I think she also made the move to be able to see Yuzu at work on the things that make him the most phenomenal figure on the ice right now and possibly ever to be on the ice.  He's the Wizard of Oz and Zhenya wants to see the man behind the curtain.  I really do think it would set the figure-skating world on end if the two of them were to put together an exhibition program.  The tabloids would go nuts but since it is well known that Yuzu lives essentially like a medieval monk, they would be well-placed to debunk any speculation.

 

I spoke about Denis Ten and Machida more in the vein of their roles as dark horses that have happened and surprised the podium and even had reasonable arguments as to why they could have gotten gold at a Worlds, rather than (sadly) the skaters themselves.

 

I do think (or hope) a dark horse will rise to challenge the sQuad that is not predetermined like Stephen. A Shoma fan on tumblr wrote recently that if someone told her Shoma from juniors would be a runner-up in PC post-Sochi she would have laughed in their faces. Shoma had problems with his 3As and his wonky jumping technique made jumping quads a big if. But he and Nathan added new quads to their repertoire quickly. Not everyone is like Yuzu who waits to make sure his quads are consistent and have transitions to add them to competitive programs, and not everyone is judged at Yuzu's standard (i.e. need steps and transitions) to get GOEs or have choreography and actually doing something with their feet to get PCS.

 

Shoma gets a pass sometimes because he's more balanced than Nathan and Boyang, and is a treat to watch, but his scores says he is a complete skater while technically if judges weren't so happy with him things could be very different. Future judging will decide if Vincent will get a reputation (in judges' book) as an underrotator that will affect even close calls. Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum what's already happened is that lenient judging for Shoma means no matter what some of his jumps like a underrotated 4F will rarely get called. I'm just picking on Shoma, he's not as bad as I'm making it and he's not the only one who gets leniency.

 

ISU turned a blind eye to Yuna and her impassioned fans with their petitions as well as her whole country who loved her. They can create a gap if they want, once they believe Yuzu won't go to Beijing, especially now with lower BV that skaters can work with and more GOEs for judges to play with. They have shown its possible to play around in the ladies field all within one season. Zhenya, the bigger star between her and Alina and more popular in her own country, got beaten by the system that initially upheld her. Even with her huge TES, could Zagitova broken the SP WR at Olympics without her upward PCS boost? A clean Wakaba can't even touch her anymore. I talk about ladies even though we're talking about Yuzu and men because I don't believe the politics are that different. In the same vein, Stephen is a upcoming front runner currently. If the sQuad falters in the quad and Beijing comes around, I'm betting there will be a sudden rise of another junior man to nip at Stephen's heels.

[KatjaThera]

It's not really the place to discuss this, but the GOE talk reminds me that I recently thought they should have an additional score. GOE is just grade of execution and as long as the bullet points are fairly clear, anyone who ticks them all should get all the GOE they deserve, regardless of what anyone else does. HOWEVER, I believe they should have an additional score for the quality of each element. I guess they are technically included in the PCS, but they're not really properly evaluated.

 

For example, two skaters both jump a 4T from steps, they have good height, good position in the air, good landing. They both deserve the same amount of GOE, for ticking the same boxes. However, one skater has a buttery smooth 4T with huge distance and super high and extra creative landing and very difficult steps going into it, while the other has just enough to tick the boxes. Then skater 1 has a higher quality for a well executed 4T, while skater 2 has a lower quality for a well executed 4T. A difference should be made between the two and that difference should be an extra score, marked 1-10, but individually, for each element, like GOEs. If you just bunch them together like PCS, the judges will just give them by general impression anyway, without analyzing in detail. Also, if one skater had great quality jumps and poor quality spins, for example, the score would be different if each element had its own quality score, as opposed to giving an overall score for elements - for example, if some of the elements are impressive enough, the judges might be tempted to give a higher overall score, ignoring how poor the other elements are.

 

I'm kind of surprised nobody has suggested something like this. THIS would really make a difference between skaters, because just GOE isn't enough, IMO. Ticking the GOE boxes shouldn't really be impossible, because it's grade of execution, not quality of execution. And I think it's fair to give a score for how well the elements were executed, then give bonuses to who executes them better (which is, naturally, subjective, hence, PCS-like scoring).

 

Back to Yuzu, while it's true he is the cash cow, I think ISU likes to pretend they have no idea. I don't think Yuzu ever really got any help from ISU. His scores have always been quite fair. He's also never really had the kind of political support other skaters have had, because even in Japan, he's not really the one they'd rather have on top. So I doubt ISU consider him very much when making their plans... (or maybe they just happily rest on the fact that if he gets lower scores, he'll just work harder to get on top again, so they don't really need to worry about helping him )

[Msyloves]

11 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Back to Yuzu, while it's true he is the cash cow, I think ISU likes to pretend they have no idea. I don't think Yuzu ever really got any help from ISU. His scores have always been quite fair. He's also never really had the kind of political support other skaters have had, because even in Japan, he's not really the one they'd rather have on top. So I doubt ISU consider him very much when making their plans... (or maybe they just happily rest on the fact that if he gets lower scores, he'll just work harder to get on top again, so they don't really need to worry about helping him )

1

 

Spoiler

Who do they want? Has Yuzu always had problems with ISU or JSF?

 

 

48 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

yuzu checking himself out in the mirror

 

 

He looks pretty pleased with himself 

[Pamigena]

16 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I believe they should have an additional score for the quality of each element.

 

I'm gonna have to vote against making the system even more complicated just so the ISU can give the judges even more wiggle room. They aren't even capable of applying the current rules properly. .... sorry, the current guidelines, I forgot that rules are for amateurs.

[Sammie]

10 minutes ago, Msyloves said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Who do they want? Has Yuzu always had problems with ISU or JSF?

 

 

 

He looks pretty pleased with himself 

If I have his body shape I would be proud of myself too 

[vanadiezz]

44 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I don't think Yuzu ever really got any help from ISU. His scores have always been quite fair. He's also never really had the kind of political support other skaters have had, because even in Japan, he's not really the one they'd rather have on top. 

 

I think he did receive help sometimes *cough*when Yuzu himself said that he scored too high*cough* but not as often (and as much) as some  others since he does not need it. He even still can win when they hold his scores to create a more balanced competition.

And now you made me curious. Who the JSF really wants to have on top?

[KatjaThera]

7 minutes ago, Msyloves said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Who do they want? Has Yuzu always had problems with ISU or JSF?

 

Spoiler

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, so I wouldn't say he's ever had problems with either ISU or JSF.

 

However, in Japan, there are, it seems, two big factions: Nagoya and Osaka, with Nagoya being the more powerful of the two. While Sendai, where Yuzu comes from, is actually the birth place of figure skating in Japan and the only two FS Olympic Champions come from Sendai, Sendai has no political power. As such, Yuzu can't really be their favorite person. I personally think if Shoma's results were really on par with Yuzu, JSF would put all their political power behind him.

 

I would personally like to believe politics doesn't play as big a part in FS as others say, but I can't say I'm convinced either way. Having political backing though, is not a bad thing for the skater and I think if JSF really had a choice, Yuzu would not be it. Which is not to say they would sabotage him. They would just rather have someone else win and perhaps do more to make that happen than they would for Yuzu.

 

Also, personally, I think that, as long as they are not unfair to Yuzu, it's a good thing. Like this, both we as fans and Yuzu himself can be firm in our belief that all his results are fully deserved and he obtained them just through his own hard work, without any political interference. I'm not sure how many skaters can honestly say that, but he's definitely one of them. IMO at least.

 

12 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

I'm gonna have to vote against making the system even more complicated just so the ISU can give the judges even more wiggle room. They aren't even capable of applying the current rules properly. .... sorry, the current guidelines, I forgot that rules are for amateurs.

Sadly, that's a good point, but half-hearted rules - or guidelines - still annoy me, even if they don't get applied even like that.

 

5 minutes ago, vanadiezz said:

 

I think he did receive help sometimes *cough*when Yuzu himself said that he scored to high*cough* but not as often (and as much) as some  others since he does not need it. He even still can win when they hold his scores to create a more balanced competition.

And now you made me curious. Who the JSF really wants to have on top?

 

That's why I said "quite fair". There have been exceptions, but everyone gets a score happy judge or two at times, so I think it's quite balanced. And anyway, when Yuzu was still up and coming, the judge candy was far more modest than it is now. It took Yuzu years to get into the 9s in PCS - and even then, there was outrage. How long did it take Shoma and Nathan?

 

As for the JSF thing, I'm sorry, I think I made it sound more dramatic than I meant it, but I gave my opinion - which is really just that, an opinion and impression, I have no proof for it - a bit above, under spoiler.

[Forcefield]

11 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

 

I'm gonna have to vote against making the system even more complicated just so the ISU can give the judges even more wiggle room. They aren't even capable of applying the current rules properly. .... sorry, the current guidelines, I forgot that rules are for amateurs.

 

 

OT: He's only on the technical panel and doesn't dish out PCS and GOEs, as well as he's really lenient on Satoko, but I hope someone has the guts to step up in the men's field and cause chaos like Shin Amano in the next quad. It will at least make things a little more interesting and with calls on quads, playing with scores wouldn't entirely rest in the hands of the feds/judges. Go broke or go home.

[vanadiezz]

45 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, so I wouldn't say he's ever had problems with either ISU or JSF.

 

However, in Japan, there are, it seems, two big factions: Nagoya and Osaka, with Nagoya being the more powerful of the two. While Sendai, where Yuzu comes from, is actually the birth place of figure skating in Japan and the only two FS Olympic Champions come from Sendai, Sendai has no political power. As such, Yuzu can't really be their favorite person. I personally think if Shoma's results were really on par with Yuzu, JSF would put all their political power behind him.

 

I would personally like to believe politics doesn't play as big a part in FS as others say, but I can't say I'm convinced either way. Having political backing though, is not a bad thing for the skater and I think if JSF really had a choice, Yuzu would not be it. Which is not to say they would sabotage him. They would just rather have someone else win and perhaps do more to make that happen than they would for Yuzu.

 

Also, personally, I think that, as long as they are not unfair to Yuzu, it's a good thing. Like this, both we as fans and Yuzu himself can be firm in our belief that all his results are fully deserved and he obtained them just through his own hard work, without any political interference. I'm not sure how many skaters can honestly say that, but he's definitely one of them. IMO at least.

 

Sadly, that's a good point, but half-hearted rules - or guidelines - still annoy me, even if they don't get applied even like that.

 

 

That's why I said "quite fair". There have been exceptions, but everyone gets a score happy judge or two at times, so I think it's quite balanced. And anyway, when Yuzu was still up and coming, the judge candy was far more modest than it is now. It took Yuzu years to get into the 9s in PCS - and even then, there was outrage. How long did it take Shoma and Nathan?

 

 

The judges back then are more modest because there are not many things they can tamper with. Like, 1 Quad in a program. Quad Toe and (sometimes) Salchow. Normal GOE and score because why taking risks when you're gonna win anyway?

 

And then this skinny boy from Sendai came and annihilated the score system with all his GOE and harder tech content and backloading. Judges don't really have any choice other than being immodest. 

[Iknirg]

That last pic!!!!

[vanadiezz]

3 minutes ago, Iknirg said:

That last pic!!!!

 

I will be out of town the whole next week and my Ice Jewel PB and Cat-Yuzu-in-Hakama will arrive during that time..

Another two weeks before I can enjoy it and you're killing me with that preview @Iknirg 

[Iknirg]

18 minutes ago, vanadiezz said:

 

I will be out of town the whole next week and my Ice Jewel PB and Cat-Yuzu-in-Hakama will arrive during that time..

Another two weeks before I can enjoy it and you're killing me with that preview @Iknirg 

 

Haha. Waiting will make it better

When I opened my twitter and saw that on my TL and instantly ascended to heaven.

[Lunna]

2 часа назад, BWOZWaltz сказал:

I believe most of us who enjoy drinking do it because we feel liberated from ourselves that we're usually maintaining in order to lead everyday life  like work, study, etc. And also we do it to enjoy the time with friends or families around drinking occasion. Those who drink alone is not drinking because they enjoy it  but rather they have to drink to forget about their hardships or they're addicted to alcohol.

 so under spoiler

Спойлер

Personally I drink not to get drunk but cuz I like taste of good wine and beer)) of course usually I do it in the company of friends or with family to enjoy a process in full (very rare I can drink a can of beer in the summer alone during dinner maybe)

As for Yuzu drinking or not I don't really care - he can do whatever he likes. And I have a friend which started to like alcohol only after her 30th birthday, so Yuzu has plenty of time  (if he can't really drink then it's not the biggest problem there are a lot of other things in life to enjoy).

Though all the insights about why Asian people are not in a good terms with alcohol was interesting - never heard of that (especially about Japanese seeing in movies/hearing from others how it can be normal to go for a drink with colleagues after work - like it can be a must and to decline will not be polite).

[EisElle]

maybe we should bring the discussion of Yuzu's challengers and new rules here

but I'm gonna say this here

Spoiler

 

Yuzu may have said he was scored 'high' (tho let's remeber his perfectionism... iirc he also criticized his 3A or maybe his 4T from his Sochi SP  and he said his 3A combo in Helsinki weren't as good as in other performances) and it might even be true, following strictly the rulebook, but I can't really remember an instance where he's been that much overscored compared to the rest of the field.

A case could be made that WC 2014 could have had another winner (tho it's not nearly as strong as the one for Denis Ten winning WC2013). COC2014 comes to mind too, but that one was under very very exceptional circumstances (and again, let's compare to what the rest of the field did and got).

For bad skates, with all his titles and records and reputations, his PCS have dropped under 9 more than once, which means a drop of more tham 8 points from his PCS PB (meaning for each component where he could potentially get 9.5-9.75 they gave him 8.75-9, which could look like a small drop but it's actually huge, comparing to what happens to the rest of the field)...

now, not to be mean, but I honestly haven't seen anything like that when Nathan, Misha, Shoma bombed, and none of them had already won an OGM nor a word title back then, so in theory they had less reputation to their names to save their PCS when they underperformed. This even after they bombed repeatedly, as it's happened to all of them this past season (SA, IDF, GPF, for some of them OWG and Worlds too, speak for themselves). Heck, it hasn't even happened to Vincent, who bombed hard in Milan but still got PCS quite close to his PB...

True, most of those instances where Yuzu got low PCS were in Canada and early in the season, when he is not at his best, but still! Judges do recognize when he sucks. And when he does well, judges recognize that but not nearly as much as they should compared to the rest of the field.

 

As for political backing from fed, I think JSF is just sleeping most of the time with most of their skaters (again, not to be mean, but the PCS of Jpn ladies compared to some of their competitors are really a huge problem).

As someone else has noted in the past, if Yuzuru had got anything nearly close to the kind of backing some skaters from some others feds get, he would have won both 4CC2017 and COR 2017 easily. He hasn't, and the result was acceptable, but again, a strong case could be made that he could, still following the rulebook. If he had been backed in 2013WC, when Japan was at risk of losing 3rd spot for OWG, he would have been scored better in the FS and a case can be made that he could even podium (I remember Max Ambesi, who usually predicts results quite accurately because he actually knows rulebook, saying that he expected a higher score)

JSF is lucky that they got a skater who doesn't need politicking, and that he has nearly no weakness, and that on big stages he manages to pull himself together even when his body is falling apart.

Other skaters with quite obvious weaknesses do need the fed's support, and some got it.

Of course Yuzuru got the support he needed when he had to move to Canada, but I'd say he'd more than earned that with his results, not with his reputation or that of the 'school' he belonged to (heck, his rink was even closed twice, what kind of political power could they have if everything they could do was to barely keep one rink open? And they had to thank Shizuka for that)

And when he's been chosen for WC17 and OWG18 without competing at Nats, JSF didn' even had to make up some new rule, because the rules they had weren't open to controversy (contrary to what could be said, for example, for the choice of sending Daisuke or Kaori to Olympics, where a case could be made for other skaters...possibly a weaker one, but still...)

 

 

6 hours ago, Msyloves said:

 

I can't get enough of HYK, first time I watched I was like, "What!? It's finished!?"

wasn't too much a fan of Notte S. maybe because the first 2 videos I saw of Yuzu was Seimei and then H&L Worlds and it felt too sad

But HYK seems very uplifting and there's a sense of joy, for me anyway

 

I love that layback gif (is my term correct?) It's so beautiful and now I've seen your Notte gif, I think I'll give it another look.

yes, that's the layback InaBauer (ooooh I should really update Glossary)
 

I agree HYK is full of joy. The original song could be more about hope&longing, but Yuzuru's version and interpretation is hope&joy that blossom and get stronger during the performances (his expression when throwing snow, how he launches in the delayed1A and then right into the laybackIB with that beautiful, beautiful smile...)

 

As for Notte Stellata, I'm probably biased because I fell in love with its spins at first sight LOL (I'm glad if my gif can nudge anyone into giving the program a second chance)

First one I've watched was probably GPF2016, and it was my fave for a while, then it was replaced by the WC one was (spin hair! All the clapping!), then WTT...then, when I was wondering how could Yuzu do an even better Swan, pink COR2017 Swan come, the first I've watched live! Then OWG Swan, which by now it's probably become the one I've rewatched the most. It's so serene, the whole performances is beauty and grace

Anyway, maybe because of the lyrics, I don't really feel sadness in that program. The lyrics of Notte Stellata progress from "You don't know how much I love you" to "Now you know how much I love you" and end with "you already love me" so maybe I've been swayed by that

What I feel is mainly a feeling of wistfulness and almost melancholy but also tenderness. The feeling changes a bit in every performance too.

The COR one was a bit more dramatic.

In the OWG one I felt there was more softness, and an understated, quiet joy. It felt the calm after the storm, after the pain and the struggle before Olympics and it also felt like a thank you. If HYK feels uplifting, to me the OWG Swan is utterly serene.

When Yuzuru spoke about how the title was also connected in his heart to that starry sky he witnessed after the earthquake, I thought that yes, I could really see it: the silence, the darkness all around, and then that finding unexpected beauty even in pain, and with that beauty also gratitude and a tiny spark of hope. In this sense, I feel HYK is some sort of continuation of both Requiem and Notte Stellata.

 

here some more NS gifs just because

Probably I should repost all of this in the Notte Stellata thread

Spoiler

Skate Canada: the first Swan, with beautiful angle of delayed 1A that some people mistook for a popped jump

 

Whops I should gif the NHK first twizze axel sandwich

 

GPF: Swan some arms details

 

Oh no I still have no gif of Worlds Swan

 

WTT: Swan spread eagles sequence and after spin

WTT Swan has one of the best swan bows

 

COR: Swan twizzling out of 3A and Dramatic swan

 

OWG: Swan smiling

OWG Swan final smile

 

[Hydroblade]

9 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

As for Notte Stellata, I'm probably biased because I fell in love with its spins at first sight LOL (I'm glad if my gif can nudge anyone into giving the program a second chance)

First one I've watched was probably GPF2016, and it was my fave for a while, then it was replaced by the WC one was (spin hair! All the clapping!), then WTT...then, when I was wondering how could Yuzu do an even better Swan, pink COR2017 Swan come, the first I've watched live! Then OWG Swan, which by now it's probably become the one I've rewatched the most. It's so serene, the whole performances is beauty and grace

Anyway, maybe because of the lyrics, I don't really feel sadness in that program. The lyrics of Notte Stellata progress from "You don't know how much I love you" to "Now you know how much I love you" and end with "you already love me" so maybe I've been swayed by that

What I feel is mainly a feeling of wistfulness and almost melancholy but also tenderness. The feeling changes a bit in every performance too.

The COR one was a bit more dramatic.

In the OWG one I felt there was more softness, and an understated, quiet joy. It felt the calm after the storm, after the pain and the struggle before Olympics and it also felt like a thank you. If HYK feels uplifting, to me the OWG Swan is utterly serene.

When Yuzuru spoke about how the title was also connected in his heart to that starry sky he witnessed after the earthquake, I thought that yes, I could really see it: the silence, the darkness all around, and then that finding unexpected beauty even in pain, and with that beauty also gratitude and a tiny spark of hope. In this sense, I feel HYK is some sort of continuation of both Requiem and Notte Stellata.

 

here some more NS gifs just because

Probably I should repost all of this in the Notte Stellata thread

  Hide contents

Skate Canada: the first Swan, with beautiful angle of delayed 1A that some people mistook for a popped jump

 

Whops I should gif the NHK first twizze axel sandwich

 

GPF: Swan some arms details

 

Oh no I still have no gif of Worlds Swan

 

WTT: Swan spread eagles sequence and after spin

WTT Swan has one of the best swan bows

 

COR: Swan twizzling out of 3A and Dramatic swan

 

OWG: Swan smiling

OWG Swan final smile

 

i live for happy Swanyu