General Yuzuru Chat

[Melodie]

9 minutes ago, monchan said:

I'm pretty sure it must be in the FS. He only did 4Lz in his FS, prob the same for 4A. He did 4Lo in LGC and never skated it clean:))

Yeah, that, plus, as they always say, skaters can lose with the short. Putting the 4A in the free, if something doesn't go right, he can fix it.

[SitTwizzle]

2 hours ago, Henni147 said:

 

Yeah, that too. I really don't want to worry about his layout.

a) With 4 quads and 2 Axels it's difficult enough as it is already.

b) He has options to max out his BV anytime, if he wants to.

 

I feel that we got so spoiled and used to the high complexity and ease of Yuzu's programs that we do not even recognize how difficult it really is anymore. Apart from Nathan no skater has a program with higher BV than H&E at the moment. And even Nathan tends to reduce his number of quads, when he debuts new programs. Please do not forget that.

Which means, just as many ultra-C jumps as his rival's program.

And I agree about the easier layout in less competitive championships, which I think is a general practice and a wise one, and for Nathan Chen specifically, allows him to show part of his talent.

 

Oh yes, we are too spoiled with his skates, and particularly with the two new ones, the programs and how he skated them.

Mr Knightley : "What do you deserve?"

Emma : "Oh! I always deserve the best treatment, because I never put up with any other (...)" 

 

@ Monchan and @ Melodie

The problem I see, is the amount of energy needed for the 4A. He has somehow a little spare energy at the end of a SP, not at the end of a FS, though at Nats he didn't look extremely exhausted (but, it was an early season layout). So, if he opens his FS with a 4A, won't he fall later?

[Henni147]

26 minutes ago, SuzyQ said:

 

Oh, sorry and I understand what you mean.

I should have said that "even if it does not have elements that are given higher base values when compared to his other programs".

H&E has more edge jumps than usual, maybe because it more suits the program than using toe jumps, and Flip and Lutz, both toe jumps, have higher base values even if it is already a known fact that the Loop jump is more difficult when it comes to quad.   

 

Actually, the only competition where his planned BV was significantly higher than here in H&E was his suicidal 5 quad layout in Torino that he couldn't skate clean.

 

In every other competition the BV was almost the same, maybe 2-3 points higher at best. The 3F gives one point more than a 3S. The 3Lz less than a point more than the 3Lo. Those differences are very small, especially in the men's event, where top skaters win with margins of +30 points. It's only worth the upgrade, if the success rate is the same and the jump fits the flow of the music and choreo.

 

A clean skate with no PCS cap and big GOEs usually scores much higher than a free with slightly higher BV, but one or two mistakes.

 

@makebelieveup Exactly. Not Yuzu's program was simple. The scores did not reflect what he did there. Under normal circumstances this should have scored easily above 220. First outing or not. The difficulty and quality was there from start to finish.

[makebelieveup]

yeah to add I think the impression that H&E doesnt have high/need higher bv is given by jsf judging thank you very much. Let's say he was awarded correctly, he could have scored well over 330 for his two clean performances and no one would have thought about the need to up the bv. And I dont think that would be a national inflated score either. He usually scores 110+ internationally with a clean short and a 4 quad 2 triple axel free should put him in the 220+ if fair. The fact that jsf did this to him sends a message to isu that they dont support him and that's what going to push him to do unnecessary suicidal layout at international competition to stay competitive against nathan. 

 

 

eta re 4A:

I feel conflicted about this element. on one hand it would be nice to see Yuzu land it, no matter where no matter how well. it is his ultimate dream. I want him to retire fulfilled, happy, done with the sport and this circus. I know when he has set his eyes on something he will go for it no matter how little reward it gets. i want him to do something for himself, not for anyone else.

 

But on the other hand, I dont think it is possible to land 4a without losing a competiton. this element has only been a stumbling block for him. I didnt care the first two seasons but now that its already his 3rd season post pc and knowing he does have intention of going to beijing if possible, i am starting to dislike this snake.

 

I feel like its best if Yuzu could just make up his decision now rather than later whether he will continue to train for it or not.  By assessing the current situation, with where Yuzu stand in terms of scoring, the risk seems almost silly. Between winning vs training for 4a, he can only choose one. His past two seasons told me that training for 4a isnt worth it -- his other jumps get affected, he injured more, he lost opportunity to focus on the 4lz and 4loop, and lost consistency throughout each performance which means his goe and pcs go down. I would rather he spends those time to train for other jumps/combos like 4lz and 4loop, 4lz3t, 4t eu 3flip so he could land them together more consistently. The chance of him landing a 4lz in the short, as risky as it sounds, is still far more possible than the 4a in the free. I feel like for the past two seasons, this trial and error period with the 4a has only been detrimental. I think he had planned to do 4a for origin at first but only switched to training for 4lz again after 18/19 season. I hope he puts the idea of 4a in the back burner until after beijing so he could be 100% focused on training to skate clean without the 4a. To me winning beijing means much more than landing a 4a. And i dont buy that he can have both. But ultimately Yuzu is Yuzu and he will decide what he knows is best for him.

[SuzyQ]

44 分, Henni147さんが言いました:

 

Actually, the only competition where his planned BV was significantly higher than here in H&E was his suicidal 5 quad layout in Torino that he couldn't skate clean.

 

In every other competition the BV was almost the same, maybe 2-3 points higher at best. The 3F gives one point more than a 3S. The 3Lz less than a point more than the 3Lo. Those differences are very small, especially in the men's event, where top skaters win with margins of +30 points.

 

A clean skate with no PCS cap and high GOEs usually scores much higher than a sloppy free with one or two mistakes.

 

This is quite true and we all have understood by now that Yuzuru has convinced himself that he should achieve performance with higher GOE, that is excellent as a program, not annoyed by thinking about the base values.  He used to say this many times before, but he might have lost his ideal somewhere when competing with younger skaters.  Now after the difficulties in GF and Nationals in 2019, and achievement in 4CC, and again difficulties from the pandemics, I believe he has firmly convinced himself again to go for his ideal.

 

But unfortunately it is also true that sometimes the judges take the jumps with higher base values as more rewarded ones than actually they are, and there is also a fact that the score is given pro rata base.

 

We cannot forget the Hanyu Criteria problem either 

I was really disappointed by the cancellation of the base value change last year.

Just IMO, the layout of H&E still has a risk, although I know Yuzuru would no longer be annoyed by minimal things.  

[b138oo]

We really live in a time where a free program with 4 quads + 2 3As is considered as an easy layout wow this is actually crazy 

 

[Umebachi]

1 hour ago, yuzupon said:

Someone has said it before, I am sure, but 4 quads, 2 of which are backloaded, plus 2 3A’s program is a difficult program. 
I don’t want to speculate on why Zuzu didn’t include Flip and Lutz, mostly for the sake of my sanity, so let’s not go there.

 

 

In one of his post Jnats interviews, Yuzu stated that he did not include flip or lutz in HE because they did not fit the choreography, which called for edge jumps. For example, after the 3A2T, he thought about other types of jumps but 3Lo felt the most appropriate to create the feeling of the flow - that I mentioned above.  At least for this performance at Jnats, he chose the jumps not to *water down* or to *avoid risks* but for the artistry and to create the feeling of one-ness.  

[Melodie]

9 minutes ago, Umebachi said:

 

In one of his post Jnats interviews, Yuzu stated that he did not include flip or lutz in HE because they did not fit the choreography, which called for edge jumps. For example, after the 3A2T, he thought about other types of jumps but 3Lo felt the most appropriate to create the feeling of the flow - that I mentioned above.  At least for this performance at Jnats, he chose the jumps not to *water down* or to *avoid risks* but for the artistry and to create the feeling of one-ness.  

And flow his jumps created  

[JanMary]

I still think his ultimate goal is 4A, not Beijing. He mentioned (again) in post JNat interview that if it is not for 4A, he would not be competing. And even now he hasn’t confirmed anything about Beijing yet (that’s why he is asked this question in every competition). He also said in the post JNat interview that when he recover from the JNat tiredness he will again start to build his body for 4A. 
 

I don’t know whether he could win Beijing with 4A (no one knows who will be the winner anyhow), but his determination for 4A is unquestionable to me. 

[Umebachi]

12 minutes ago, Melodie said:

And flow his jumps created  

 

I should add that it was particularly significant for him to create that flow and oneness at this event - Jnats at Nagano - because the location of the event is so close to the famous battle of Kawanakajima, and also because Nagano people still revere Lord Kenshin as their famous historic lord.  In other words, he was dancing on sacred land for people who would appreciate the significance of the dance.  

[JanMary]

About no flip or lutz in the program, I remember for both OP at JNat, he jumped lutz combo in the practice. So the jumps should be fine and nothing to worry about. (Edit: He jumped 3Lz-eu-3S on 24 and 26 Dec, and 3Lz on 25 Dec.)

 

From Sponichi OP memo, date 24 Dec 2020 (https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2020/12/24/kiji/20201224s00079000254000c.html)

▽12:48　3回転ループ、3回転ルッツ―1回転オイラー―3回転サルコーを着氷。

 

From Sponichi OP memo, date 25 Dec 2020 (https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2020/12/25/kiji/20201225s00079000169000c.html)

▽8:33　3回転ルッツ。ゆっくりと滑る。

 

From Sponichi OP memo, date 26 Dec 2020 (https://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2020/12/26/kiji/20201226s00079000154000c.html)

▽10:07　3回転ルッツ―オイラー―3回転サルコーを跳ぶ。

 

This post has been tagged by yuzuangel as [NEWS].

[IULIANA]

We always complain that Yuzu is held on different supperior standards compared to his oponents, and now we simply do the same. Judging at JNats was appalling, and the fact that he scored less than at NHK15 could give the impression that a 3-quads and 2x3As Seimei is technically superior to a 4-quads and 2x3As H&E. Seriously? Come on, guys, we could do better! Like we deliberately follow the NBC and USFSA narrative as the absolute truth. H&E is a pure gem already from the first outing and tactically and strategically impecable. And do not forget his beauty. Again, Yuzu proved that beauty does exist.

[SuzyQ]

As to the comment by Hagio Moto about Yuzuru that I posted about earlier, it seems the comment was actually made in 2019.

It was her answer when she was asked who she thought was a beautiful boy.  She said;

"Alain Delon, Al Pacino, as I'm old-fashioned"

"SMAP (Kimura Takuya)"

"Yuzuru Hanyu is like a miracle.  I cannot believe he really exists."  

 

https://ameblo.jp/minminmin-vync/entry-12648122560.html

 

Translation:

"After seeing Yuzuru Hanyu's aesthetic performance on the ice about the movie based on the novel written by Yumemakura Baku, who was enthralled by the aesthetic world of the manga drawn by Hagio Moto, Hagio said, "Yuzuru Hanyu is like a miracle." It's very good to feel the world is all connected."

 

Anyway, as I found the videos of the NHK program this time in 100 minutes, for those who are interested.

The man on the left who is talking enthusiastically about Hagio Moto is Yumemakura Baku who is the author of the novel "Onmyoji".

No.1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRzUwdblAd0

No.2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nfKzZdGRk

No.3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61uixuf1ff8

No.4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwqHs0x29Og

 

 

 

This post has been tagged by yuzuangel as [NEWS].

[JanMary]

In my personal ranking, Ten to Chi to 2020 JNats has already surpassed both 2015 Seimei technically and artistically, only little behind 18OG Seimei and 17WC Hope and Legacy (partly because they both mean a lot to a Fanyu) ... I can't even imagine how Ten to Chi to could grow to be better... It is already so perfect. It only needs a Big Event performance for legendary status.

[Henni147]

2 hours ago, SuzyQ said:

But unfortunately it is also true that sometimes the judges take the jumps with higher base values as more rewarded ones than actually they are, and there is also a fact that the score is given pro rata base.

 

This rule definitely does not apply to Yuzuru Hanyu. We have seen the amazing GOE reward for his back-to-back 4Lo and 4Lz in Torino. The 4Lz got 3.94 of possible 5.75.

 

We also have seen the shabby GOE of Boyang's 4Lz, which actually is a true quad Lutz.

On the other hand Samarin's pre-rotated one with weird axis got +5s across the board and Shoma's awful 4F is regularly showered with high GOE, too.

 

The GOE scoring has NOTHING to do with the base value or actual quality of the element. It's blatant favoritism and push of narratives. Nothing else.

It absolutely doesn't matter, if Yuzu jumps Lutzes or not. If the panel is not on his side, he can't buy anything with his Lutz. Torino was an eye-opener in that regard.

 

 

EDIT: I start to believe that Beijing is somewhat bond to the 4A. This is the only jump that absolutely no one can do and it would set Yuzu apart from the rest of the field again.

Just keep in mind how much media attention the 4A already creates and Yuzu has not even landed it. Imagine what uproar there would be, if he eventually decided to bring this baby in competition. This would be something that not even NBC and friends could dismiss. This would be a game changer. Not in points, but in PR and figure skating is 99% a PR game now.

 

How could you explain to casual viewers that a skater with 4A and 2OGMs under his belt cannot beat a skater who has none of those things?

Also, you see how much excitement the thought of an Olympic three-peat creates. It hasn't been done in almost a century. Media loves narratives, but I think, they love sensations more. The ISU would be forced to let him win, if he skated clean with 4A.