meoima

19 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Nathan's strategy for US Classic was obviously to debut the program, try it out in public for the first time, and get a base PCS score that should grow over time even as he adds in more quads. At the same time, he's playing an interesting intimidation strategy where his planned layout has lots of difficult quads (in this case even had 9 jumps instead of 8 lol) and doesn't match his performed layout so you never know what'll come out that day and thus can't as easily prepare your strategy against it. I wonder how many he'll do for Japan Open in direct competition to Shoma, who will be doing 5 for sure. 

Nathan is welcomed to do 9 jump passes because the last one will be invalid anyway. Zero point for much work and risks. I don't think Nathan or his team put 9 jump passes in the plan. It's more likely someone who input the data was confused. Especially when they put 4T2lo3F in the layout, it's clear that the data person doesn't understand figure skating at all. You can't do 3F after 2Lo without change of edge, unless you rotate clockwise which is overkill and a bit what the heck (or stupid) to train that within this system. 

11 minutes ago, Katt said:

 

Thanks. I didnt read this.

 

My point is, its early in the season, he can try anything he want to find the best layout that he could do with consistency. Many skaters still do their weakest jumps, like Wakaba/Satoko's flip, they can have the benefit of doubt a few times from tech panel, but not always. I dont have any problem with Shoma do 4lz here, even in Japan open. I may have different opinion when he do it the whole season, of course after seeing how the jump itself look.  

 

 

I said several time that I hate the judging in Lombardia thread. Tbh its not benefit skaters in long run. Imagine if Wakaba do the same performance at other event and she get 10 points lower, how would she feel ? The score are nonsense long time ago, I don't have any hope that could be better in Olympic season. Since I'm a Yuzu fan, I only care how he's gonna do and his health. And yes, I wish he could slay all season too. I don't have energy to care about other things. Whatever happens will happen. I hope we can judge things after seeing it, not before. 

I have lost hope in the judging. And I don't think the judges and the specialists will make any move to act serious with their calls anymore. It's like ok everyone get candies as it's done. The system will be shut down soon anyway why do they care? That's my frustration. 

Before last season, some folks I know kept saying: "they will make a lot of changes, don't worry, the scores will be more sensible, they're very serious."

Nothing sensible and nothing serious at all. Inflation keep going up and judges leep yolo scores like they haven't had enough time. 

As I said, the only bright notion from this is that Yuzuru might hit 350 or even 360 if this trend keeps going. 

1 minute ago, Katt said:

We still don't know if Shoma gonna do 4lz, do we ? The last thing I read from J media was his 1st jump is 4lo. Even if he indeed go for 4lz and don't get an edge call at Lombardia, we couldn't be so sure that they never call it. And he's not the only one who benefit from it. Wakaba, Matsuda all got generous call from tech panel. Better watch and see  how it goes. IMO 1-2 comps don't say anything, especially so early in season. The judging at Lombardia is wild, but seeing things are quite chill at US CS, maybe its just happen at 1 event ( and yes I'm bitter because my other faves didnt benefit from inflated score here). 

I think pretty much everyone has given up Lombardia. Like when I saw Zagitova getting 147 it's done. The point is are we sure if judges or tech specialists will be sensible as the season goes? I remember the whole last 4 years when people complained about how wild the judging was during Gp series every year, and people all say: "Well it's just GP, it's not serious, let's wait for Europe, for WC". 

My memories of those years is that: the sensible moment from the judging never came. 

One good thing, maybe Yuzuru will hit 350 or even 360 total if the judges keep going this way. 

7 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

And, yeah, the judging has been a joke and I don't expect it to improve in this competition. Maybe you should be clearer with your words but Shoma hasn't been seen practising a 4lz since Chicago. He has been seen practising his 4S. It's more likely he will add a 4S. Maybe wait to see what his FS layout is before getting worked up over edge calls he hasn't been let off for yet.

With the way they're judging Lombardia, when everyone get new personal best right at the beginning of the season, the tech call is super easy for ladies, how do I expect suddenly they're more serious for the men? 

I will be more than happy if they're serious for once. But after the ladies, I have no hope at all.

And yes 4S is more of a reasonable choice but I will not be shocked to see a 4flz without any e call at all. And to think Lombardia tickets this season are more expensive than usual. Roll eyes. Of course I don't like what the organizers are doing. 

US classic judges might be feeling so regret right now that they're not inflating scores to the moon (just kidding).

6 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

You could wait to see what he actually does before suggesting his 4lz is the death of the sport and the fed is covering his ass.

 

Anyway, I hope Shoma goes with the 4s not the 4lz seeing how the only example we've seen had glaring flaws. I have no hope for Lombardia judging to be sensible or whatever but they've certainly set a precedent of wanky judging.

Huh? Did I say "his fed is covering his ass"? 

I said Italian fed is being too easy in this event and give out too much easy scores which don't look as good as the performance shown. It's across all competition from ladies to men. 

How are you explaining 143 and 147 for ladies in a senior B when just last season it's the score for top ladies at World Championships?

It is ridiculous judging, ridiculous leniency and of course, this kind of easy going is not doing good for the sport at all. 

Where did I mention Japanese fed? Are you imagining thing? 

2 minutes ago, SSS said:

Don't say that...you are my only hope...

 

I am totally scared about the 7 quad bv right now....because of candies in PCS and GOE, no difference...

Tech specialists are paid but they also don't do their job probably. Of course this is just a senior B event when they're super lenient. But again, if they're there and they can not tell which wrong is a fake and should get penalized, then what's the point for specialists to be there? Just tell the judges to give maximum in everything and it's ok. I am so done and so disgusted at what Italian fed is managing this event, sorry if I offend anyone. It's not about ther nationality but how they're judging all of these. It's a farce.

and 147 for Zagitova right at the beginning of the season. I don't know what to say.

15 hours ago, SSS said:

So apparently Nathan is doing 4lo in practice today and there is a piece of news saying that Shoma will do 4lz in FS...

 

I am not ready...

Look at how they scored the ladies at Lombardia give me no hope at all. This sport is dead. Because specialists are just tools for big federations to give easy pass for their cheated technique. 

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, pretty much the corridor judging is basically trained into them, then. 

it is a mess which the Russian coach who trained me during the seminar said: "They replaced the old system with something even worse because the same people do the judging." 

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

I would one day really like to see a scoring sheet giving 7.5 on SS but 9 on IN... Or alternatively, 9.50 in SS but 8 in PE, for example. That'd be fun. 

I was interpreting one ISU seminar in which the ISU specialist said this: "You'd better to keep the gap in between 0.25 to 0.5. Gap like 1 or above is too big in factoring." 

Judges will not give you 7 in SS but 9 in IN because it's against what they were trained... They have to make the number events. That's why the game of PCS is dangerous. Once you get above 90 PCS, you will not get lower than that for most of the time. Judges give out scores based on tier. Not on actual skills. For example someone can do 60 crossovers and still get above 90 PCS because judges count them in as medal contenders.

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, agreed. There's only so much you can underscore a clean Yuzu (like the Mexican judge who gave 0 to the 3A at 4CC, I hope that one got rammed at the Judges review, though I doubt it) but I do think any little bit of missed GOE he should have probably received will weigh more this season when BVs are rising. 

Yuzuru also raises his BV. Judges will not underscore Yuzuru this season though. They had a reason last season because he lost WC 2015 and 2016. His programs last season were quite disliked as well.

But now he is the reigning WC, with programs they can not deny, they will not underscore him. What they will certainly do is to give candies to everyone, so everyone will get huge scores even though they might not deserve much. But that's life.

For example some certain skaters just skated at Lombardia without good transitions and steps and still get the same benefits as thought who incorporate those moves into their programs. My friend was laughing like: "Hey, that's a fake mohawk right, does it count? No? Hey I count 29 crossovers in total, maybe more? ISU has no shame right?"

Anyway, by Olympic, everyone will get 2 and 3 anyway so it is not likely a good jump from Yuzuru will get 0. The men layout is risky and those who do not experience Olympic does not know this. I worked at a stadium for 2 years during college life, and I have seen how athletes from kids to adults messed up at low level competitions, let a lone the most important and most viewed ones. The key is not highest BV but the highest stability.

In short, Yuzuru understands this very well, that's why he chose the programs he did. He needs to be at the most stable condition, to skate clean as much as possible, make least mistakes as much as possible. That's why skaters are reusing their programs. And the latest is Osmond has just comes back to her SP last season. And my friend in Canada already predicted it one month before this. She was like: "I assure you Osmond will reuse her SP last season!" And she did.

13 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I wouldn't trust the American and Canadian feds judges too much either. They're not likely to be any more generous to Yuzu. 

At Yuzuru's very best, even if they hate him, all they they can do is the same as what they did at WC 2017 and we all knew the result. Yuzuru does not need too much generosity. Because his jumps and transitions always follow the guidelines, they can do nothing but giving rewards to it even though they dread giving him +3.

1 minute ago, katonice said:

Too bad the American judge's score for the PCS (he seemed to be the sanest one there too) probably all got thrown out and didn't count lol.

 

lowest score got thrown out so the second lowest got counted. So yes Japanese federation should be aware. The American know of Shoma's cheated jumps and no steps before quads and the huge amount of 2 foot skating that Shoma is displaying. The American know and all the American and the Canadian and their fellow will do is easy, just score it correctly to the rules and it will all matter. 

19 minutes ago, Amura365 said:

I took one look at Shoma's Lombardia Trophy SP score and I sighed. The judges are really going to town this season it looks like. The judges were really really generous with Shoma's scores makes you wonder what they'll score everyone else once the GP season starts.  It almost feels like Shoma's the judges new anointed one.

Only the American judge gave quite fair score, he is the only one who gave rightfully -2 for the solo quad without step before it. If they truly follow the rule it should be automatic -3 but I guess with this kind of judging -2 is already a lot.

Lombardia Trophy scoring is a joke I feel like ISU is trying to give everyone the chance to score huge because they will have a new system soon anyway. 

Wakaba got 74 for UR 3lz3T, Carolina got 71 for only 3-2 combo, Shoma got no automatic -2 or -3 across the board for NO STEP before solo jump. 

The only judge who scored fairly was American judge. Remember this, JSF should know they can't play with cheated technique much longer.

2 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Currently not possible. IOC agreed with NBC the broadcast rights for the USA until 2032 for the whopping amount of 7.65 billion plus the signing bonus. There is the additional deal that the IOC made with Discovery, ie the owner of Eurosport for the four Olympic Games between 2018–2024 for a nice chunk of change, 1.44 billion dollars, to cover Europe. So there is so much money in play here that really, it makes your head hurt. But this is why it is unlikely that there is any change possible until 2032 - the contracts are already in place. The only possibility is that I guess Discovery pays up for post 2024 but that's just an if game. 

That's enough money for ISU to change the Olympic Schedule, and (sorry) give some skaters they prefer much higher scores than they should... No wonder my friend who worked for a television broadcast in New York told me since 2015 that Olympic will be mostly decided by NBC.

Anyway, it is out of our hands, let's pray and hope for the best.

40 minutes ago, Vadrouille said:

I think that the skaters who can jump both quad lutz and quad flips are supposed to benefit from those changes, for example Nathan Chen, Uno. Even if their technic on those jumps are not good, they will do 2 quad lutz and 2 quad flips in LP and get good GOE +3 or +5.

Other skaters like Hanyu or Boyang Jin will not benefit from those changes, because Hanyu does not do quad lutz or quad flip yet, Hanyu does quad toe, sal and loop, and Jin does not do quad flip but he does quad lutz, toe and sal.

I believe that when and if those changes are taking place , in 2022 or after 2022, most of the skaters who are active today will be retired already, especially Yuzuru, so it does not affect him very much. So I don't care very much about figure skating anymore.

Just my little ideas about that.

 

Shoma Uno doesn't have 4lz, especially from the training video people have seen. Shoma flutz as usual and UR it. Even someone like Jackie Wong who defended Shoma's bad technique many times also calls it as a UR flutz. You don't fix a bad flutz in several weeks. If they're naive to try it out in real competition, I am sure they will get called as they already have great lutz from Boyang and Nathan to compare. 

It is safe to say Yuzuru has 4lz in practice because we actually saw him landing it. And his coach even confirmed that. And there's rumors of Yuzuru including 4lz in this season. Yuzuru might even do 4A if he's really into it. So the biggest challenge is the 4F. 

it is also safe to say Boyang will have not much doing both 4F and 4Lz because he is a very fast rotator with acceptable take off technique. 

As for who will benefit the most from this? Whoever ISU will favor by that time, mostly a Russian or a Canadian or an American.

In short, many people are against the proposed BV so we shall see how they will apply it or how will they adjust the scale after the feedback. It's not set in stone yet.

29 minutes ago, kiches said:

I like what they're doing with the junior grand prix, I like how it's accessible to watch for nearly anyone with internet connection.

 

It's true in the US, figure skating doesn't get a ton of coverage compared to the past. When I started becoming a more serious fan after Sochi I struggled to find where I could watch competitions regularly, particularly because I don't have cable TV or any other tv programming outside what is available over the air for free. Eventually I figured it out of course.

 

I think the USFS is stuck on the idea that to have a star in skating they need to have a female champion. They've had champions in ice dance with Davis and White, and Nathan has garnered a lot of attention as well and now they have a junior world champion in Vincent. They need to promote the sport better as a whole and not focus on just the ladies because that is clearly not where their strongest competitors are. The fact that the men's discipline is now arguably the most popular globally out of all four disciplines says it's possible and that fans, even casual fans, can enjoy and become hooked on the sport through something other than ladies skating. USFS just seems incredibly outdated (much like the comments from Bianchetti in the article, which goes to show that those in the ISU are also outdated in their thinking), even their website looks like it'd something out of the 90s and Ice Network isn't much better. They need to get with the times and make the sport easier to watch and information more readily available, but they try to make it more entertaining by hiring Tara and Johnny to do color commentary rather than people that know how to educate and explain what is happening in the performance. It's just incredibly misguided, they're not making it easier for Americans to get into this sport as a fan.

Lady event was still the event that attached the most audience at Boston WC, so no.  And at Olympic, ladies will be the last event and we all know who decided Olympic schedule. So overall, To US casual views, it's still the ladies that represent figure skating. 

Of course male skaters as long as they do well will get attention, but will never be famous as ladies. I have no doubt saying this, had Yuzuru been American, he wouldn't get as much loved as Kwan was loved back then. 

Just now, Pamigena said:

 

I'm sure the French federation still has a couple of cardboard coasters lying around somewhere

I am sure my ice rink still has plenty of METAL medals to share the burden. Lmao

1 hour ago, kiches said:

As for the popularity of the sport, it's clearly doing very well in certain countries and less so in others. Perhaps the ISU needs to study the success of the sport in these areas to see how they can apply it in countries where it's not thriving. If tickets for events like NHK Trophy and GPF are selling within minutes then clearly there is a demand and money to be made in that market. 

Figure skating needs stars (well all sports need stars, but team sport less so a bit). The only way ISU can develop strong interest in some countries are making stars out of them. Which is why we see they're working on it with junior grand prix, streaming through YouTube and do interviews with young promising skaters to attract viewers.

However, it depends on each culture to see if the stars can be made. You want to attract American casual views? Americans need to develop strong ladies. They only need like half of the dozen ladies that Russia has right now.

Now I wouldn't be against individual medals for elements, they should have jump competition in which skaters perform solo jumps from single rotation to quad for like 10 times in a row and the guy who gets the highest average score will get the gold.

- Gold for the best lutz technique 

- Gold for the best axel

and so on... gold for the best sit spin, best layback spin... lol

i wouldn't mind. They will have to make a lot of medals though.

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

The GOEs and PCS scores would be ripe for political manipulation, which would then decrease the profile of the sport etc etc. If anything you would think that ISU's idea of their ideal skater is actually Yuzuru...but they do seem quite okay with ditching him. 

Yuzuru is like... he does too well and his quality is too good so even though many people in the skating world do not like him, they could not say anything against him much aside from attacking his "inconsistency" lol.

Then you know reputation and rumors matter quite often among the judges. I have seen a husband of a judge at Skate Canada complained this right after Yuzuru's legendary performance at GPF 2015 when he set WR like: "Hanyu got too many 10s! He did not deserve that much."

Guess what, that person once taught Javier skating skills for a while. His wife JUDGED at Skate Canada and several other competitions. 

He even said, "Asada never has a true 3A, she never landed a clean 3A in her career." <--- which is wrong because for sure Mao did land a plentiful of clean 3A in her long career but I guess some politiking did the job (and I am not even Mao's fan).

Needless to say, he hates me a lot and I once asked him something about technique on facebook he did not reply me at all. 

4 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

@meoima

So Patrick c 2012?  They want to turn the clock back?  I don't see this proposal achieving that.

Well Patrick represents the majority of North American male skaters. If you look at most US skaters who do not jump quads, you can see Patrick there. Patrick is just the best example. But many North American men skate like him. And of course, Jason Brown. 

5 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I wonder what their 'ideal skater' looks like

Actually that would be Patrick with 2 quads but he shall retire soon, or Shoma if his technique is not that horrible and cheated, or Jason Brown if he can jump at least one quad. Or Javi because Europe really need a presenter. But overall Patrick at his prime is the best candidate.

By the end 2012, many specialists already bet their money on Yuzuru because they knew great technique when they saw it. There are some top specialists which I shall not name them are actually Yuzuru's fans. But it seems the judges are not on the same side with tech specialists. As we know, judges have higher politic conflicts. 

4 minutes ago, Xen said:

...does that mean in China if we publish similar news we can staple an image of Nathan to the front? 

Low is low....and gotta love Brian's snark. "Yes ISU, I get where you are going with this, thank you for making sure after my complete package skaters we won't get another couple of them in a long time..."

 

They're very funny to attack Boyang and ignore the fact it's their own balletic skater who should be the example. sigh... what saddens me most is that FS world is so small and no one dare speak up the truth. 

3 minutes ago, SSS said:

I get the lower bv might be real...

They even talk about separation?

Nobody is talking about judging? T___T

 

4A's bv is tooooooooooo low....the difference betweeen 4a and 4lz is soooooooo tiny.

Yes, no one has ever land 4A in competition, and the only guy who can land 4A in competition is Yuzuru and they're making 4A much less than before. It's like ISU and Co are telling Yuzuru to retire cause "We need no male to do 4A, thank you for your service."