Mock judging panel

[Nuitsuki]

@robin haha my method is cruel to the eyes  

Seriously, Boyang has improved a lot compared to CoC. You can see how his turns back then were kinda scratchy, and his loop turn was particularly meh to me (no idea why tbh). Maybe because he was injured at that time too.

 

Check out the entry for Yuzu’s 3A combo in seimei pyeongchang: outside SE - inside IB - 3turn sequence (rotating clockwise into an counterclockwise jump, which adds extra difficulty) - 3Alo3S. No speed lost, absolutely smooth and undisrupted, huge ice coverage, yet no +3 GOE 

[robin]

16 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

@robin haha my method is cruel to the eyes  

Seriously, Boyang has improved a lot compared to CoC. You can see how his turns back then were kinda scratchy, and his loop turn was particularly meh to me (no idea why tbh). Maybe because he was injured at that time too.

 

Check out the entry for his 3A combo in seimei pyeongchang: outside SE - inside IB - 3turn sequence (rotating clockwise into an counterclowise jump, which adds extra difficulty) - 3Alo3S. No speed lost, absolutely smooth and undisrupted, huge ice coverage, yet no +3 GOE 

 

But it's helping already

 

Yeah Boyang had snow flying here and there and some of his edges were rather flat, too

 

Yuzu's jumps allllwaysssss deserve +3 unless he makes mistakes

[hoodie axel]

4 hours ago, Xen said:

Hmm. Well I actually do score fairly close to you. Though I'm definitely considered generous. And if anyone disagrees, I'm all ears. =)

 

9.5+: Yuzu and Patrick-both are able to gain speed out of nowhere, using deep edges to gain momentum. Patrick looks way better in fancams-you really get a much greater sense of his speed and absolute stability as he goes from element to element. His skating reminds me of water-it is just a neverending flow. Yuzu gains speed from nowhere, and is incredibly fast. But I would rather say Yuzu is like the wind-he doesn't so much flow, but "breezes by" gently from element to element. It's pretty healing watching both of them (when they are not falling of course).

 

9.0-9.25 range: Javi, Jason Brown (Jason brown could go higher actually, on a good day, he has really nice flow in his skating). They're both solid, and quite fast, but not quite at Yuzu/Patrick level when it comes to ease of movement.

 

8.75-9.0 range： Mikhail, Dimitri Aliev and Shoma (Shoma has nice edges and flow to his skating, his knees are quite good). Majority of Japanese skaters are probably in this range. Cha Junhwan is also IMO, in this range, though judges don't acknowledge it, and Dennis V is also in this range. More 2 foot skating, but quite good when they do 1-foot, pretty good edge use and decently deep edges.

 

8.25-8.5: Boyang, he's improved a lot, but some of his movements aren't fully extended enough to go beyond 8.5 yet. 

 

8.0-8.25: Nathan,  still higher than avg, but not quite there yet. His knees truly kill everything for me, and from fancams he always comes off as more slow, labored, and lacks this certain lightness/agility that Boyang and Shoma have. 

I wouldn't pre-determine ranges. SS vary from program to program, performance to performance. They are to be scored based on the performance.

 

Nathan Chen is capable of very deep turns when he's on -- on those days I'd give him an 8.5. He doesn't always show them, however, and skates on flat blades very often.

 

Boyang, on the other hand, shows nice glide. In his FS, however, he loses stamina at the end, and starts hopping steps. Not always, and he's fairly consistent (and he was injured), but this is why he received Level 2 Steps in Olys and WCs.

 

 

Have we already begun?

[hoodie axel]

3 hours ago, Xen said:

And I hope that Boyang brings back Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon when his SS finally hits 9.0 status. That StSq at the end would be scary-he felt a tad behind the beat and tempo now, but one day if he hits it, wow. 

 

He could do an exhibition!

[Neenah]

So, apparently this judging thing is going to be extremely difficult for me.  I thought I would practice a bit and decided to choose programs I am familiar with because I would know the layout, and here is how it went:

First started with Yuzu, picked the first performance Youtube suggested for me (it was POTO at GPF)- enjoyed the performance so much that I totally forgot I was supposed to be judging 

Second, I picked Mai's FP from COC (it was in the recommended videos)- ended up in tears remembering nationals  

Noticing the problem, I picked someone I don't like (not naming them for obvious reasons) - Was bored out of my mind and remembered why I did not like that skater. So,  -3 GOE for both the skater and me as a judge  

Thus, it is painfully obvious that I totally fail as a judge as I am too biased and enjoy skating way too much to scrutinize it 

 

I am actually curious now about what performances were guys trying? and how do you handle the problem of having an opinion about the skater or program before hand?

[hoodie axel]

2 hours ago, Neenah said:

I am actually curious now about what performances were guys trying? and how do you handle the problem of having an opinion about the skater or program before hand?

Boyang (like) vs Shoma (neutral) WC 17 FS.

 

Leverage the opinions into objectivity -- why do you like the person's skating? Why do you dislike it? If the like/dislike is personal, you just have to put it aside, and focus on the routine. Why do you like/dislike the routine?

 

Boyang, the technical:

 

1) Good jumps, decent spinner.

2) Sometimes labours steps and turns, not too clean, check for hops, program not a good showcase -- SS

3) Poor TR

4) Composition good enough due to placement of jumps, step sequences, spins, but noticeably empty during second half, and between jumps.

 

The other part:

 

1) Decent performance, great during in ChSq, in and out other times, focuses too much on jumps between the 4T-2T and 4T combos, not too expressive after all quads done, but tries to project outward instead, loses it during the StSq, gains it back in final spin

2) Interpretation -- easy to judge in this case, as there's nothing added to the music as such, though the charm during the ChSq may make you think differently. All you need to judge is the timing of the elements.

 

Shoma, the technical:

 

1) Weird jumps, good spinner.

2) Cleaner SS, but doesn't showcase ability during StSq, as he doesn't accelerate during StSq as he should and could have.

3) Better TR

4) Composition good enough due to placement of jumps, step sequences, spins.

 

The other part:

 

1) Decent performance, not a tango, face never sells the latter half of the program and PE falls flat there.

2) Interpretation -- also easy to judge in this case, as there's nothing added to the music as such either.

 

[Xen]

9 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I wouldn't pre-determine ranges. SS vary from program to program, performance to performance. They are to be scored based on the performance.

 

Nathan Chen is capable of very deep turns when he's on -- on those days I'd give him an 8.5. He doesn't always show them, however, and skates on flat blades very often.

 

Boyang, on the other hand, shows nice glide. In his FS, however, he loses stamina at the end, and starts hopping steps. Not always, and he's fairly consistent (and he was injured), but this is why he received Level 2 Steps in Olys and WCs.

 

 

Have we already begun?

My ranges are more averages based on general impression gained throughout the season, and I'm fine with going outside of that. Hmm...after seeing this, I have thought about how I judge. Suppose the easiest way to describe is like this: there is a baseline, and skaters are graded as EE (exceeding expectations), ME (meeting expectations), or BE (below expectations). For me, the baseline ME line is around 8/8.25-this is where I think if you are a senior, you should be able to reach it. For SS, I would factor out jumps (since it would duplicate GOE issues if I do factor jumps heavily into the SS). So in the end, my scores for people, especially on SS,  will probably look like a bell curve. There might be a giant cluster of people at 8-8.5, and very few going above 9, and few going below 8.

 

For Nate though, none of his SS makes me give him anything above ME-and actually that's just an average too. I think Nate shows better SS and TR in the short, the long is jump-skate-jump for reasons. But here is where I question things too. I think Nate's SP is a very even tempo, there is little fluctation in pacing/tempo, so there is no need for him to really vary his skating speed. In fact, it covers up quite a bit of what he lacks. If you notice programs from say Yuzu's Chopin and LGC, and even Boyang's CTHD, you'll notice a change in tempo in the music, and Yuzu does speed up a LOT in his first twizzle sequence. Why I want Boyang to re-do CTHD one day, when his SS improves, is I want to see him do that tempo change in his StSq to max potential-right now the tempo change is mostly indicated in his arm movements, less in the footwork.  Back to Nate-his LP is where he could use a change in tempo in his skating, as there are noticeable highs/lows. But if you look at the skating, especially in fancam, these highs/lows are not accentauated at ll in the skating. And it's not just footwork-even arms are not used much (Shoma and Boyang at least use their d**n arms).  Yes,  he has nice stsq and so on, but I find TR movements so far and few in between that other than the stsq, I barely get a chance to judge his SS fully. Add in a lack of variance in tempo, and I would be hard pressed to see anything above 8.5. Maybe it's just a strategy to force  me to judge only based on that rare choreographed place, but frankly, I hate being forced to do that, so newp, not buying it.

 

And frankly, if we talk about variance of PCS scores, I would say SS should theoretically be the most consistent of the whole bunch. It's more about the fundamentals of skating, and should be less prone to mood swings. Sure, Patrick Chan might have had problematic jumps, but that doesn't mean his edge depths just decreased due to that. Some of it is innate and habit of skating too. And even if it fluctuates, I'm having trouble seeing an upward swing of 1 point between 2 competitions only 1 month apart, as being justified. Unless of course, the lower SS score competition was just that horrible, the skater bombing everything, tripping over blades even when gliding.  TR would have some variance, especially if mistakes force skaters to drop TR movements.

 

IN/CO/PE I think are tied together, and the one I'd expect to see the greatest variance of, scoring wise. As for facial expression- I don't give a d*** about it. Most times I find facial expressions of skaters extremely cringe-worthy (quite a number I'd rather not see), and if the skater's arm/body movements don't match with the music nor extend the emotion expressed, I don't see the point of the facial expression? I mean really, as a judge or audience member, I'm going to be at least 5+ meters away from the skater, possibly over 30 meters away. Do facial expressions register at that range?

[hoodie axel]

28 minutes ago, Xen said:

In fact, it covers up quite a bit of what he lacks.

It's clever choreography! It's why people are fooled into believing there's a huge difference between him and Boyang, when there's isn't that much of a gap, and Boyang uses what he has with far more consistency.

 

28 minutes ago, Xen said:

For SS, I would factor out jumps (since it would duplicate GOE issues if I do factor jumps heavily into the SS).

Haha, you're another person I differ on this from. I think ability to accelerate or at least maintain speed going in, and control them coming out (knee bend) are indicators.

 

SS are usually consistent. But younger competitors like Nathan (flat blades) and sometimes Shoma and Boyang (who show undefined curves and hops respectively) aren't really consistent. Shoma and Boyang have a good level of consistency though. It's just more apparent for the viewers with Boyang because... hops are more visible.

 

Good description, and nice explanation! It gives me renewed confidence that viewers would make better judges than the actual judges.

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

It's clever choreography! It's why people are fooled into believing there's a huge difference between him and Boyang, when there's isn't that much of a gap, and Boyang uses what he has with far more consistency.

 

Haha, you're another person I differ on this from. I think ability to accelerate or at least maintain speed going in, and control them coming out (knee bend) are indicators.

 

SS are usually consistent. But younger competitors like Nathan (flat blades) and sometimes Shoma and Boyang (who show undefined curves and hops respectively) don't really. It's just more apparent for the viewers with Boyang because... hops are more visible.

 

Good description, and nice explanation! It gives me renewed confidence that viewers would make better judges than the actual judges.

Yes, Nemisis is more an indication of Shae Lynn's skill as a Choreographer, and a good choice. As for Shoma and Boyang-my question is when those hops happened, did they accelerate? As in did they do anything or attempt to change the tempo and speed of their skating? In which case, it is an indicate of lack of full control of their blade, but more within the realm of expectation. In the case of no change of tempo,  well yes of course you won't mess up if you're always at your comfort speed and won't need to suddenly dig into deeper edges to gain speed.  But then, the inability to vary your speed, while it hits the IN and PE score, it could also serve as indicate of less SS, since you are not willing to vary your speed (or are unable to). If you skate, you'll notice it is harder to do everything if you are trying to push for speed at the same time.

 

For jumps, actually I don't differ that much from you.  If you mean jumps as in ability to accelrate, add steps, turns etc before jumping, that I would actually count as SS (well actually I don't give that many points to simple glides). However, I don't consider the ability to fall or land jumps (or do quads/triples) as much an indicator of SS. Part of this IMO, from experience since I've seen young skaters who can land a ton of jumps, but their basic skating and ability to hold edges *suck.* Heck, I'd probably qualify for that category. This is probably the beef I have with people who insist that OMG quad jumps should get a leeway. Okay, fine, to a degree (like 0.1 or less), but where does one draw the line? I've mentioned this elsewhere- hypothetically, if someone does the same program twice, 1 version with just triple jumps, 1 version with quad jumps, and no difference otherwise, why does the quad one deserve more SS points for essentially the same movements? Especially if the guy already did a version with just triples, maybe that is where the skater is in terms of baseline SS capability, and I shouldn't imagine potentially better SS just because of the existence of quads.

[hoodie axel]

8 minutes ago, Xen said:

Yes, Nemisis is more an indication of Shae Lynn's skill as a Choreographer, and a good choice.

 After his opening combo, he does sort of a body roll move, to disguise his lack of flow. And agreed on lack of control to keep up with tempo -- that is experience and age.

 

And no quads shouldn't be given leeway. It's simple, if you can't do stuff around quads, don't do them. It's why I think Boyang is better at the quad game than anyone else (well, not counting the veterans here) -- he had enough experience with them during juniors, so he added stuff around them during his debut to package himself enough (though not with his LP) and is at a comfort level to support them (though he needs more steps before his 4Ts!!!), whereas Nathan and Shoma look visibly less comfortable. Shoma can do good steps before his 4T, but his programs become more and more generic the more he adds quads, and Nathan... well.

[Xen]

5 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

 After his opening combo, he does sort of a body roll move, to disguise his lack of flow. And agreed on lack of control to keep up with tempo -- that is experience and age.

 

And no quads shouldn't be given leeway. It's simple, if you can't do stuff around quads, don't do them. It's why I think Boyang is better at the quad game than anyone else (well, not counting the veterans here) -- he had enough experience with them during juniors, so he added stuff around them during his debut to package himself enough (though not with his LP) and is at a comfort level to support them (though he needs more steps before his 4Ts!!!), whereas Nathan and Shoma look visibly less comfortable. Shoma can do good steps before his 4T, but his programs become more and more generic the more he adds quads, and Nathan... well.

I think the men's side is easier to settle. Now...female skaters, that's where I really want to read people's analysis. =)

[Nuitsuki]

I have to admit that i am more comfortable with men skating since I watch it more, also because Yuzu and Patrick are gold standards to assess the rest. Ladies I am not confident, so I'm very open to discussion here (I feel like I gonna be thrown tomatoes and eggs for this, please nice to me guys):

 

- 9 to 9.25: Carolina K., Sakoto M., Kaetlyn O. Good speed, good knee actions, very good edge control, huge ice coverage, very good flow. Caro is kinda hard to say since she does a lot of long gliding, and while it's beautiful, I still love to see more skating content in her programs. Zhenya can be in this group too when she is at her best, but it's because that she has tons of transitions which are part of multidirectional skating and one foot skating. Otherwise, I'd enjoy effortless and natural skating more than laboured and unmatched to the music transitions.

- 8 to 9: Marin H., Mai M., Wakaba H., Kaori S., Alina Z., Karen C., Yuna S. These skaters have all their strength and areas that need improvement, but generally: speed (Wakaba, Kaori), flow (most of them, but Alina is a bit behind in this section, and Karen really needs to improve her jumps), edge control (Mai, Karen, Marin), one-foot skating and multidirectional skating (Alina is superior in quantity but kinda behind in quality). This group has a big room for judging because i don't think any of them is particularly better than the rest. So i'll just decide depending on their performances.

-7.5 to 8.5: Maria S., Bradie T., Mirai N. 

[hoodie axel]

12 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

Alina Z.

In 8-9?

And Medvedeva in 9-9.25?

 

I guess they're others whose flaws are disguised, even with terrible programs.

Their skating is really awkward. They can't gain speed without pumping their bodies, look at how much they swing their limbs around. You can see Zagitova pump her body to support her skating, Medvedeva's legs are even stiffer than Nathan's to my eyes. They have good control, because they use their limbs to really stretch out those curves in their step sequences, but the ability to hold an edge is just as suspect as their ability to hold positions, because of how they always hop to the next step or turn as part of the choreography.

 

I'm glad only one of them is in the mix for CoC.  I guess in general I'd mark them around the same low 8s.

[Nuitsuki]

@hoodie axel as I said, I’ll give Med 9-9.25 only when she is at her best. Yes she is slow, but it’s hard to be fast when you have more transitions than the rest. Yes, her knees are stiff and her free leg swingging annoys me to hell, but i don’t think she hops on turns. I find her turns, while not lovely, were carefully completed and the curves are recognisable. 

 

Regarding Alina, with an exception of WC FS this year, personally i can’t give lower than 8 for her programs. The amount of transitions are crazy. 

 

But i understand that we have different values, and as I said, I’m very much of an amateur. Maybe after watching enough of skating or reading more discussions, I may start noticing things I didn’t pay attention before  that’s why i sign up as side judge for the 1st round. 

[hoodie axel]

2 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

i don’t think she hops on turns.

Oh, let me be clear. She doesn't hop on turns, no, but I think she can't really hold her edges too much, so they choreograph her to hop after completing them sufficiently well. I think Zagitova has been made to do this more though, and maybe just her. I'm just not enough of a fan to watch right now and have a look.

And I hope I didn't come across as rude, I have a lot to learn too.