General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

Speaking of ladies' skating, given how much harder it seems 3As and quads are for ladies than men, I don't think it makes sense to keep the same base values across disciplines. Like, how many ladies have landed 3Lz-3T's in competition vs. 3As? and yet the base values are quite similar. I think the ISU should analyze the base values they have for jumps to see if they want to encourage 3As or quads, or else backloading will still be the least risky way to win.

[Forcefield]

[Yatagarasu]

1 hour ago, yuzuangel said:

And I wonder if we're gonna see some "half" loop combinations with a 2Lo or even a 3Lo. Could look beautiful.

 

I'm curious, like what for example?

 

[yuzuangel]

6 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

I'm curious, like what for example?

 

Like a 3A-3Lo-3S instead of a 3A-Lo-3S.

[Valkyria]

2 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

Like a 3A-3Lo-3S instead of a 3A-Lo-3S.

 

Can't do that, since for it to be a combo you need to start the next jump from the same foot and edge you finished the one before. Like this, since you end the 3Lo on a RBO edge you can't go into a salchow afterwards, which needs a LBI. That's why the Lo is there in the valid combos, to let skaters change their landing foot before the next jump (and why you can only tack a flip or a salchow there).

[yuzuangel]

Just now, Valkyria said:

 

Can't do that, since for it to be a combo you need to start the next jump from the same foot and edge you finished the one before. Like this, since you end the 3Lo on a RBO edge you can't go into a salchow afterwards, which needs a LBI. That's why the Lo is there in the valid combos, to let skaters change their landing foot before the next jump (and why you can only tack a flip or a salchow there).

But the 1/2 lo could be 2 or 3 revolutions.

[Valkyria]

Just now, yuzuangel said:

But the 1/2 lo could be 2 or 3 revolutions.

 

So they would still land on the left foot, you mean? Don't know if that's a thing, I'll let more knowledgeable people chime in XD

[yuzuangel]

9 minutes ago, Valkyria said:

 

So they would still land on the left foot, you mean? Don't know if that's a thing, I'll let more knowledgeable people chime in XD

Yeah, they would still do that. I don't know if it's ever been done, but technically it's possible 

[gladi]

30 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

But the 1/2 lo could be 2 or 3 revolutions.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1610393525875114/permalink/1794428600804938/

I remember @Lys wrote a pretty good post about combinations in YHIFG  Found it!
 

Quote

As you see, options for combos are quite limited. To help having more variety and freedom on how to handle their combinations, Isu rules allow another kind of jump to be used only in 3-jumps combo: "Euler" (as it's known in European countries) or "Half loop".

 

Euler or half-loop is not - as english name suggests - half a loop, but it's a single rotation EDGE jump, where the skater takes off on a Right Backward Outside Edge (like regular loop), but lands on a Left Backwards Inside Edge.

Having a different foot landing compared to other jumps, "Half loop" allows the skaters to change their take off leg & edge (from RBO to LBI) and to put in a combination jump a salchow or a flip.

 

Euler can be counted has a regular jump ONLY in a three-jumps combination.

 

The consequence of allowing "Euler" is all jumps but Lutz and Axel can be used as last jump in a combo.

 

But what happens if a skater wants to have an Axel as second jump (like that glorious spread eagle-3A-spread eagle-3A-spread eagle sequence Carolina posted in her Axel review)? Isu allows such a scenario in which the second jump of the combination doesn't take off from same edge as landing of the first, but it does consider that jumping pass as a "Sequence".

 

Sequences can be used only in FP and skaters who want to do them pay a high price: only 80% of the base value of every jumps used in the sequence is counted. That's the reason sequences are very rarely used in a free program and why Yuzu shows us his sequences only in gala and practice.

 

So while you can technically, theoretically do it, it'll be worth 0 even if you do 2"loop", 3"loop" since it's not an actual loop and not a listed jump. (Also voluntarily landing on an inside edge after double/triple rotation seems like ankle-suicide.)

[yuzuangel]

Just now, gladi said:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1610393525875114/permalink/1794428600804938/

I remember Lys wrote a pretty good post about combinations in YHIFG  Found it!
 

 

So while you can technically, theoretically do it, it'll be worth 0 even if you do 2"loop", 3"loop" since it's not an actual loop and not a listed jump.

But a half loop is counted as a single loop, points-wise.

[Valkyria]

4 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

Yeah, they would still do that. I don't know if it's ever been done, but technically it's possible 

 

I just realised that would be akin to doing an axel... backwards: X + 1/2 revolutions 

 

Also, and this should be taken with a grain of salt since I'm no skater and know nothing of the feel of jumps, wouldn't that be the weirdest thing ever? Trained all your life to land jumps on one same foot, suddenly change it up for this one experimental combination. Kudos if anyone's ever tried something like that, tho.

[yuzuangel]

1 minute ago, Valkyria said:

wouldn't that be the weirdest thing ever?

Lol yeah totally...

[gladi]

10 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

But a half loop is counted as a single loop, points-wise.

 

http://static.isu.org/media/1001/tphb-singles-2016-2017.pdf p14

 

Quote

In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. One full revolution on the ice between the jumps (free foot can touch the ice, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of the definition of a jump combination. If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called as a jump sequence. However half-loop (Euler) (landing backwards) when used in combinations/sequences is considered as a listed jump with the Value of a single Loop.

 

[yuzuangel]

10 minutes ago, gladi said:

 

http://static.isu.org/media/1001/tphb-singles-2016-2017.pdf p14

 

 

Right, so it's not 0 points.

 

But if someone does a 2-rev "half" loop, I imagine they would amend it so that they would get points for a 2Lo. Even if it's not in the rules yet. They had to amend the rules to even allow euler combinations to count as combinations and not sequences a couple of years back.

 

Of course, this all depends on if someone even wants to do a 2-revolution/3-revolution "half" loop.

[Yatagarasu]

You could do a triple combo with two Loops though. Very rare but that is doable. 

Zagi did a 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo and way back, Lisa N did a 3Lo-3Lo-3Lo, Plushenko played with some of those, I'd have to go look but I believe we had a 3T–3T–3Lo–2Lo at one of the Galas at some point. Absolute murder on the hips too.