Japanese study group

[Deliverpooh]

Do any of you have anything fun or interesting you recently learned?

 

積ん読 (つんどく): not reading a book after buying it. Am guilty of that, haha. Love they have a specific word for it

[Hydroblade]

So, i have my final test this week... did good on the mock test but still i'm unsure about transitive and intransitive verbs eek...

Also, i'm currently using this app, 100% recommend! Gives me the meanings in english and spanish and it's pretty good

[KatjaThera]

It's actually my first time in this thread, because I've never been big on study groups, whether real or otherwise lol (I'm a loner, I've never really studied with other people, except in classrooms). But the translation talk in the general thread got me thinking maybe I should take a look at this thread.

 

My story under spoiler, because I got carried away:
 

Spoiler

 

I've been taking weekly Japanese classes for close to 5 years now and sometimes seeing how quick others have been, I feel slow lol Although I technically took a balanced path... I took N2 in December, but even without the results out, I know I failed spectacularly, because it was HARD. And I haven't managed to study much at all. When I first started I was unemployed, so I could spend as much time studying as I wanted. But with my job getting busier and busier and more stressful, it's hard.

 

I do pretty much live in Japan as much as possible without actually living in Japan, though. probably 80% of the music on my phone is in Japanese, I watch Japanese shows or movies or dramas every day and do some reading or other every day, too.

 

My biggest problems are kanji and then vocabulary. Kanji, because I hate having to just learn stuff by heart and can't seem to find a good system to help me with that. I learned my first few kanji by typing up magazine articles so I could use google translate to romanize them... and stumbling upon the same kanji multiple times, I eventually learned them. But now I've developed a habit of guessing or skipping what I don't understand and guessing from context and as that's much quicker than actually looking up kanji, it's counterproductive. Vocabulary is an issue because I tend to not care much to learn about things I'm not interested in. I suck at small talk in any language and I think having small knowledge of a variety of topics is kind of like the ability to make small talk. I get intense about the things I'm interested it, but a whole lot of other stuff is meh. So it's hard to develop a vocabulary.

 

I am pretty confident with listening, but vocabulary obviously can be an issue (happened at N2... heard everything just fine, but if I didn't know what the words meant... >_<). And grammar I usually find pretty logical and natural, but I think that is a consequence of being so submerged in the language, hearing it a lot every day, that when I hear the grammar explanation of some structure, it's more like "Oh, so that's what it was" than trying to understand it from scratch. That's not to say it's always easy. When I try or I have to think about it, it becomes more "err... what?"

 

When it comes to speaking, I tend to have more confidence speaking to total strangers than people I know. Probably because I know strangers have very low expectations lol I had an impromptu lunch with my native Japanese teacher last Summer and it went decently well, but I was struggling... every time I talk to her it's like my whole vocabulary goes AWOL. By comparison, I've spent hours chatting with Japanese fans at a festival a couple of years ago and I even gave an interview in Japanese at NHK Obviously, neither was perfect and I was struggling then, too, but it was easier, somehow.

 

As I mentioned in the General Chat, I've recently hit a bit of a wall. Part of it is that lack of interest in reading or learning about things I'm not really into. Another part is that last year, when I was supposed to join the N3 class, I was unable to, as that was only during the week and there was no way I could do that after work. My teached said I should join the N2-N1 group instead, which had classes Saturdays, so I did. From the beginning I knew they were more advanced than I was and I was in a catching up position. Sometimes it was good, because comprehension wise, I could mostly keep up and sometimes I caught things more quickly than my more advanced classmates. Also, I somehow managed to pass N3, despite minimal studying by myself. But this year it's harder. The texts aren't that interesting to me, and most of my classmates are so much more advanced kanji and vocabulary wise. They seem to be able to learn the new kanji in the texts quite easily, too. I'm used to being top in my classes, despite not being a talker or a me!me!me! type, so this position is quite foreign to me and it's discouraging ^_^;

 

And to top it all off, although I was fairly confident of my improvement, I find Yuzu and find there's much he says I don't understand that it's a bit frustrating lol I need to find my motivation again...

 

 

I'll go through the thread more properly over the weekend, but I was wondering: anyone else here a more sciency type who prefers logical deductions to learning by heart with advice on memorizing kanji? lol

[Hydroblade]

Yay, a new victim

3 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

When it comes to speaking, I tend to have more confidence speaking to total strangers than people I know. Probably because I know strangers have very low expectations lol I had an impromptu lunch with my native Japanese teacher last Summer and it went decently well, but I was struggling... every time I talk to her it's like my whole vocabulary goes AWOL. By comparison, I've spent hours chatting with Japanese fans at a festival a couple of years ago and I even gave an interview in Japanese at NHK Obviously, neither was perfect and I was struggling then, too, but it was easier, somehow.

 

As I mentioned in the General Chat, I've recently hit a bit of a wall. Part of it is that lack of interest in reading or learning about things I'm not really into. Another part is that last year, when I was supposed to join the N3 class, I was unable to, as that was only during the week and there was no way I could do that after work. My teached said I should join the N2-N1 group instead, which had classes Saturdays, so I did. From the beginning I knew they were more advanced than I was and I was in a catching up position. Sometimes it was good, because comprehension wise, I could mostly keep up and sometimes I caught things more quickly than my more advanced classmates. Also, I somehow managed to pass N3, despite minimal studying by myself. But this year it's harder. The texts aren't that interesting to me, and most of my classmates are so much more advanced kanji and vocabulary wise. They seem to be able to learn the new kanji in the texts quite easily, too. I'm used to being top in my classes, despite not being a talker or a me!me!me! type, so this position is quite foreign to me and it's discouraging ^_^;

 

And to top it all off, although I was fairly confident of my improvement, I find Yuzu and find there's much he says I don't understand that it's a bit frustrating lol I need to find my motivation again...

Lol, me too. I can't talk with my teacher in japanese at all. I did, once, but it was because she had switched to japanese so i didn't realize and followed along. Another teacher is a Yuzu fan and i kinda want to talk to her (and give her a swan) but i feel a bit intimidated. It was the complete opposite at ACI, where i was talking about the skaters costumes with some japanese aunties behind me and even asked them to hold my seat while i went to eat haha.

 

I feel like i've hit a wall too, recently. I don't feel like i'm properly understanding the grammar, although i can use it now. My teacher has been correcting on elemental stuff, like "make your hiragana more clear" and stuff but it's kinda hard to fix my bad habits because i've been writing like that for a long time now, also, confession: i don't "know" -te form. If you ask me the "te" form of x verb, i can't tell you, but when i have to use it, i don't make mistakes. It happens with some conjugations in english too, and i never had a problem with that because my teachers only cared about memorization. But this teacher keeps asking us, and makes us explain the grammar to make sure we understand and i get very frustrated. Two classmates have a wonderful grasp of the grammar but they confessed to me that they can't read texts in japanese because they don't understand much of it.

It just feels like i'm stuck, i don't know why.

 

And yeah, Yuzu is hard to understand (AND TRANSLATE) but i think that @kaerb nailed the reason: he tends to mumble and talk fast, so it's kinda hard to follow him lol

3 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I'll go through the thread more properly over the weekend, but I was wondering: anyone else here a more sciency type who prefers logical deductions to learning by heart with advice on memorizing kanji? lol

 I find it easier to match the kanji with an idea or a concept instead of a word.

[KatjaThera]

3 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

Yay, a new victim

Lol, me too. I can't talk with my teacher in japanese at all. I did, once, but it was because she had switched to japanese so i didn't realize and followed along. Another teacher is a Yuzu fan and i kinda want to talk to her (and give her a swan) but i feel a bit intimidated. It was the complete opposite at ACI, where i was talking about the skaters costumes with some japanese aunties behind me and even asked them to hold my seat while i went to eat haha.

 

I feel like i've hit a wall too, recently. I don't feel like i'm properly understanding the grammar, although i can use it now. My teacher has been correcting on elemental stuff, like "make your hiragana more clear" and stuff but it's kinda hard to fix my bad habits because i've been writing like that for a long time now, also, confession: i don't "know" -te form. If you ask me the "te" form of x verb, i can't tell you, but when i have to use it, i don't make mistakes. It happens with some conjugations in english too, and i never had a problem with that because my teachers only cared about memorization. But this teacher keeps asking us, and makes us explain the grammar to make sure we understand and i get very frustrated. Two classmates have a wonderful grasp of the grammar but they confessed to me that they can't read texts in japanese because they don't understand much of it.

It just feels like i'm stuck, i don't know why.

 

And yeah, Yuzu is hard to understand (AND TRANSLATE) but i think that @kaerb nailed the reason: he tends to mumble and talk fast, so it's kinda hard to follow him lol

 I find it easier to match the kanji with an idea or a concept instead of a word.

My teacher is a bit of a Yuzu fan - she's partly to blame for my becoming a fan, actually lol - too, and I actually did give her a swan. She was very happy about it, though I'm not sure she fully understood my explanation lol She also asked me about Seimei shrine and I told her about Yuzuruha, too. (Actually, I also got her an omamori from Seimei shrine as omiyage.) But all that was with a lot of stuttering. I actually suck at speaking in any language, but it is frustrating.

 

In a way it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one stuck. ^_^; With grammar, I think I understand it, but find it hard to use it... I was actually talking to my father once and he pointed out that being fluent is about being able to use the language correctly without thinking about it. And if you start thinking about it, you start second guessing and lose the fluency. I think he's right. But I think it is good to understand why things are a certain way. I've been learning English since I was six years old, but it was only in highschool that I took private lessons. And during those, my teacher put a lot of emphasis on grammar. But she did it really well and I was able to learn it. But then I forgot all the rules, only with a feeling of what was right and what not. A few years ago when I did some English editing on articles for a website, I often found myself telling the writer what they should change when there were mistakes, but I often couldn't explain why. I just knew what felt right and what didn't. I have developed a feeling for Japanese, too, but I'm still too insecure to really trust it.

 

Understanding grammar is pointless without vocabulary, though. But I'm not sure that's the problem your classmates have.

 

As for Yuzu, I don't think mumbling or talking fast are the issues for me. It's mostly vocabulary. He uses a lot of words I don't know, haven't heard much etc. My Japanese vocabulary was mostly developed from music related stuff, and general school or life dramas, so quite limited I guess lol. Though I guess mumbling might also be an issue, as it might alter pronunciation and make words I know sound like words I don't know. I'll have to analyze a bit lol

 

And thanks for the tip! I actually tried that, too... some actually worked and stuck (困る is my favorite. Because a tree in your mouth would definitely be 困る), but not enough... it's also time consuming to come up with things like that for all the kanji, and time is always my issue... but I should probably try that again and maybe actually make notes on my associations...

[Hydroblade]

4 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

I actually suck at speaking in any language, but it is frustrating.

I suck at speaking in spanish, but i feel more confident using english or japanese

4 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

being fluent is about being able to use the language correctly without thinking about it

Hm, i don't think that the correct part is that important actually, as long as you can communicate what you want to say. Of course you want to use it correctly, but i'd say that even if you are making mistakes, as long as you can talk with a good speed, it's ok.

5 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Understanding grammar is pointless without vocabulary, though. But I'm not sure that's the problem your classmates have.

They know mostly the vocabulary from the books and they rarely study/use kanji. I force myself to write kanji even if we haven't seen it but i already know it, the teacher has never said anything about it so i'm glad they don't have any problems with me studying beyond what i'm seeing in class.

5 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

He uses a lot of words I don't know, haven't heard much etc

Oh yeah. That was what motivated me to finally sign up for classes, there's something in the way he talks that i like very much.

5 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

a tree in your mouth would definitely be 困る

 

Another reason why i feel stuck is that i haven't had much chance to use the grammar i've been seeing. When i finally had the chance (our PH banner is currently traveling from Japan to yuzuangel's house lol one of our japanese members had it) it felt really good but since i don't have much opportunity to practice, i haven't been able to use what i've learned as much as i woudl like to...

[axelsandwich]

(みんなさん、久しぶりです！)

 

Yuzu talks fast, softly on the endings and also occasionally uses casual (boyish)/condensed forms of words (sometimes with a Sendai dialect which I had a kind PH user tell me via PM) so yeah, he's pretty difficult to translate. My process right now is essentially to try and transcribe parts by ear and write out the unknown kanji into Google Translate with my phone - I should probably write down recurring kanji in a notebook or something, partly so I don't have to keep looking it up. It's difficult as a non-native speaker because I don't have the vocabulary bank to guess at what he's probably saying so my transcribing is pretty much literally what I hear and then guesses based on context   

 

I never took the JLPT but I had a look at the sample tests out of curiosity and I believe I was essentially studying at N3 level before I had to stop so it's impressive you're at N2! I kind of sense that both you and @Hydroblade are extremely competent Japanese learners (more than me!) but it's perhaps your perfectionist tendencies robbing you of confidence? (also because English is your second (?) language so you're doing a 3rd -> 2nd language translation...which I am seriously impressed about already!) I had similar issues but I feel like I've gotten better (ironically after I stopped taking formal lessons lol) and feel that you shouldn't be too suspicious of your gut feelings because I think it's such a great asset to have developed a sense of 'right/wrong' even if you don't know exactly what the rule is - being corrected on an attempted translation is better than no attempt right? 

 

Re: learning kanji - I used to write diary entries in Japanese or even just make up stupid stories/sentences based on the 'new' vocab I was supposed to be memorising (a challenge was to use as many of the 'new' vocab words as I could while still having the story make sense). When I was studying Chinese (which was basically two semesters - 26 weeks - of memorising 60 - 70 characters every week...being a native speaker did not help with that), writing by hand but in context always helped me remember the meanings or at least associate certain characters with others. 

[Hydroblade]

20 minutes ago, kaerb said:

. My process right now is essentially to try and transcribe parts by ear and write out the unknown kanji into Google Translate with my phone

Wow, that;s impressive considering how fast you translate stuff when i translate i just look up the words i don't understand. Other people are easier, i tried simultaneous translation on a group chat (of the TJ Oly selection thingy) and i didn't suck too much. I can't do that with him, but maybe it's my bias of wanting to hear what he's saying and not miss anything

i find his Sendai accent adorable and makes me want to squish him to oblivion

I don't think i'm competent, just extremely motivated: I am taking the N4 next year (just to say i did, tbh) my goal is N2, i don't feel confident enough to say N1. 

[axelsandwich]

20 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

Wow, that;s impressive considering how fast you translate stuff when i translate i just look up the words i don't understand. Other people are easier, i tried simultaneous translation on a group chat (of the TJ Oly selection thingy) and i didn't suck too much. I can't do that with him, but maybe it's my bias of wanting to hear what he's saying and not miss anything

i find his Sendai accent adorable and makes me want to squish him to oblivion

I don't think i'm competent, just extremely motivated: I am taking the N4 next year (just to say i did, tbh) my goal is N2, i don't feel confident enough to say N1. 

Oh, I only transcribe the parts I don't know haha. I think my level is such that I'm comfortable with general sentence structures so my understanding generally sounds like: 'as a result of (UNKNOWN VOCAB), he was able to say that (UNKNOWN VOCAB) was present', and then I look up words from that basis like 'fill in the blanks', which is why I say I generally translate the 'gist'. Sometimes there will be verbs I don't know or I'll miss that there was a なかった or some sort of caveat words that change the context and trip me up though, lol. 

 

(also OT a little but I'm always amused by how JP articles introduce Yuzu and his condition before they state his name (右足首の負傷している１４年ソチ五輪男子金メダルの羽生結弦). It reminds me of Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones having all her titles announced )

[Hydroblade]

2 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Oh, I only transcribe the parts I don't know haha. I think my level is such that I'm comfortable with general sentence structures so my understanding generally sounds like: 'as a result of (UNKNOWN VOCAB), he was able to say that (UNKNOWN VOCAB) was present', and then I look up words from that basis like 'fill in the blanks', which is why I say I generally translate the 'gist'. Sometimes there will be verbs I don't know or I'll miss that there was a なかった or some sort of caveat words that change the context and trip me up though, lol. 

 

(also OT a little but I'm always amused by how JP articles introduce Yuzu and his condition before they state his name (右足首の負傷している１４年ソチ五輪男子金メダルの羽生結弦). It reminds me of Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones having all her titles announced )

Actually, that sounds exactly like how i translate

 

lmao "Hanyu Yuzuru: The Swan King, Father of Quads, The Record Breaker, Kuyashii Master, Conqueror of Injuries, Sochi Gold Medalist, 4 Times GPF Champion, World Champion, 4 Times National Champion, The GOAT"

[Lunna]

I think it's time to spill my Japanese studying experience.

About 1.5 years ago I was lucky to be accepted to a free Japanese classes which are held by Japan Foundation in my city. If not this I think I hardly had a drive and motivation to study myself (really admire those who do that). There are many reasons why I'm doing this to myself (not that I was very good with languages in school at least): big part is to be able to understand Yuzu just a little bit maybe, plus for several years I was into anime and cosplay, and mostly I was interested in Japanese culture and wanted to go for a vacation there someday. So here I am now studying 2 hours 2 days in a week (1 day is with native-speaker, 1 day not-native speaker teacher). My classes are more speaking orientated but of course we also learn grammar and some kanji. And even though I study Japanese 1.5 years already (with holidays during summer) I feel like I know not so much to say the least. The pace of classes is not fast (and it's a course for beginners so we started from basics), but at the same time I feel like I couldn't keep up with more fast pace having a job and other interests. But I don't regret taking classes - it's really interesting and I met nice people with same passion as mine.

Finally, last November I made my trip to Japan - but partly was shocked by good English from people on the streets  maybe cuz it was Tokyo and Kyoto. I used Japanese only a couple of times when older ladies in shops didn't know English (to ask how much it cost or answer why the hell I need a proper yukata and dancing fan ). Not that I was shy to use my poor Japanese, but I more automatically begin to answer in English and more importantly my vocabulary is very poor, so even if I can ask a question doesn't mean I'll understand the answer.

I already mentioned in gen. chat that rn my nightmare is grammar. Partly cuz it's very different from English and my native language so it's hard for my brain to get used to it. Some time ago we stared to learn plain forms and I thought my head will explode 

1 час назад, Hydroblade сказал:

confession: i don't "know" -te form. If you ask me the "te" form of x verb, i can't tell you, but when i have to use it, i don't make mistakes

I'm opposite. I know the rule (and a song to remember it  ) but it took a lot of time for me to get used to it. Some verbs that we use often in class I can tell in -te form without thinking but others take time. The hardest part for me now is that there's not only -te form but also -ru, -ta, -nai, plus in some situations there's -koto ga etc. etc. And you must remember in what situation what to use and how to change the verb accordingly  (and not only verb).

55 минут назад, Hydroblade сказал:

Another reason why i feel stuck is that i haven't had much chance to use the grammar i've been seeing.

I'm not feeling stuck rn cuz I feel I'm not able to read anything apart from the textbook. But I don't know if I'll see a sentence will I be able to recognize the rule or not. Now I feel like the time of my classes is too small to practice all the grammar, and it's not individual courses - mostly we are doing lessons from our textbook (but classes are free so can't really complain).

And I don't even want to start with kanji - I can remember some from my classes, some are more hard, but I can recognize them in the textbook, I don't know if I'll be able to recognize them in usual book, cuz even now I see some are very similar.

So I hope that maybe in time I will be able to speak a little better in simple Japanese or understand a simple talk, but reading I fell like is very hard.

[SparkleSalad]

More translation tips for printed text: 
I'm not sure if I mentioned it before but kanjitomo for windows is fantastic OCR program for translating printed text. You just load a scan of the text and it generates a list of vocabulary. You just hover over any words you don't understand and a list pops right up. I used it to translate this book which had a lot of technical language I didn't understand (if anyone is interested - though I can't attest to the accuracy - I could share the translation if I can dig it up. It's very interesting but very worrying. The illustrations by Mizuki Shigeru are fantastic.) 

 

As for memorising kanji, I think @kaerb's method of writing in context is the way to go. A bit OT but I watched a documentary about a barely literate man stuck on death row who made it his mission to teach himself to read while he was locked up. He would write any unknown words he came across in a notebook in 6 different sentences and he said he never forgot a new word that way. 6 was the magic number, apparently. I was struck by how eloquent and poetic he was.

 

I became lazy with my kanji and vocabulary acquisition after awhile and stopped actively writing and just let it seep in from watching TV with colourful subtitles. If I can't understand what's being said I can just read the kanji, or if I can't read the kanji I can hear it being said and it's a great way to shove it into your brain. I suppose a more sensible thing to do would be to get those read along audio/book combinations but I'm a big believer in the power of sparkly rainbow text and those study materials can be pretty dry. My reading comprehension got a massive boost this way but it doesn't really cover the writing part. It's so easy to rely on predictive text. 

 

Spoiler

I just went back to my first posts here to see if I'm repeating myself - I probably am a bit - and I mentioned that I had a hard time understanding FS videos due to a lack of sports vocabulary and now I'm understanding quite a bit of documentaries and reading magazine articles without having studied. So, for those who just can't bring themselves to drill, passive exposure does work! I suppose it's not the most efficient way of learning, though.

 

I'm so full kuyashii watching everyone making progress in their studies while I've been out of commission.  After I finish cramming my head full of as much Italian as I can before Worlds I'm going to try and get my speaking back.

[Lunna]

5 часов назад, SparkleSalad сказал:

More translation tips for printed text: 
I'm not sure if I mentioned it before but kanjitomo for windows is fantastic OCR program for translating printed text. You just load a scan of the text and it generates a list of vocabulary.

Thanks for the tip! Maybe later I'll try to read at least a couple of sentences from one of my FS magazines *sometimes technology is very useful - how I survived studying English at school without electronic dictionaries?*

[Lunna]

5 часов назад, SparkleSalad сказал:

After I finish cramming my head full of as much Italian as I can before Worlds I'm going to try and get my speaking back.

Chao, gracia + smile and you're safe I was many times in Italy but didn't get much further (+vino rosso, vino bianco ) Only time my English was useless was owner of the flat and taxi calling center in Verona - google translate on the phone really helped

[Murieleirum]

15 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

And thanks for the tip! I actually tried that, too... some actually worked and stuck (困る is my favorite. Because a tree in your mouth would definitely be 困る), but not enough... it's also time consuming to come up with things like that for all the kanji, and time is always my issue... but I should probably try that again and maybe actually make notes on my associations...

 

I've learned all my kanji through these kind of associations... I really cannot imagine how tiring it would be Not to use them, actually. I would lack some kind of guidance, I feel 

10 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

I'm so full kuyashii watching everyone making progress in their studies while I've been out of commission.  After I finish cramming my head full of as much Italian as I can before Worlds I'm going to try and get my speaking back.

 

If you need to practice spoken Italian and some Japanese too (if I manage), I am here *blows a kiss*