The GOAT debate

[hoodie axel]

7 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I think he's dead? He won his medals before WW2. So he can't actually congratulate any winners who match his feat...

LOL that's OK. People were discussing GOATs based off medals, so put him on here.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a seance.

[rockstaryuzu]

9 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

LOL that's OK. People were discussing GOATs based off medals, so put him on here.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a seance.

I would. God only knows what might show up. 

[Old Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, hoodie axel said:

LOL that's OK. People were discussing GOATs based off medals, so put him on here.

 

I've always thought it was strange that he was always completely ignored on the GOAT list, even with the recency bias.  Obviously he didn't have that much competition in his day, but Button had a lot less competition in his day than this era and that doesn't stop him from being in the conversation.  Personally don't think Plushenko should be in the conversation, but even with him, I've seen fans argue that he only won as much as he did because of weak competition but at least he was skating against a full field.  Button won his titles in the aftermath of WWII - I don't know what got you out of serving but I have to think that the skating field was depleted from destroyed infrastructure even if a skater could get out of serving.

 

I think another thing that's interesting about the GOAT debate is who gets left off the list.  I've never heard anyone argue for Katarina Witt even though she has 2 Oly golds.  Some people still mention Sonja Henie but not a lot.  Yuna Kim gets mentioned often in spite of fewer world and Olympic titles . Even Michelle Kwan gets mentioned somewhat often, not as much now but in her day (though probably primarily by NA fans).  I can't think of any others that have been candidates for female GOAT. 

 

On the male side, Alexei Yagudin is never considered in spite of being dominant in his day, having won more world titles than Plushenko, and I think most people consider him to be a more complete skater.  I've seen a lot of people point to Yagudin's Winter as being one of the iconic programs so he also had memorable performances.

 

So when you consider the qualities of a GOAT, from a purely sporting point of view, I think there are a few qualities that a skater must have

1. Excellence - Being superior in your craft. What did you do that was memorable?

2. Longevity - showing that you can do it time after time for a longer period.  Frankly, I sometimes question the importance of this, but it seems to be important in the public's eye. 

3. Dominance - How thoroughly you defeat the field.  This is another one that I question because, as stated above, a lot of this is just dependent on your level of competition.  

4. Impact - I remember Dick Button quoting someone when talking about, I think, Michelle Kwan.  He said something about the sport being better when you left - it was much more eloquent than that but the gist of it is that the sport was elevated because you existed in it.  I think for skating fans, this might be the biggest factor when considering GOAT status. How many people were inspired? Who changed the sport the most? 

eta: 5. Rising to the big moments - It's essential to win when it matters most.  I don't care if you win every other title out there 10 times, if you can't do it at the competitions that are the pinnacle of your sport, you're not in the conversation. This is universal throughout all individual sports and to some extent, team sports (less so because 1 person can only do so much when you're competing against several people).  

 

I remember bickering about this on GS and I had more in the list but that's all I can think of for now.

[eagle]

2 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

No Gillis Grafström?

 

Mr Gillis has passed away long ago. 

Mr Button is 89, assuming he lives pass 100, there's still 10++ years to go make it.

 

[hoodie axel]

30 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Button won his titles in the aftermath of WWII - I don't know what got you out of serving but I have to think that the skating field was depleted from destroyed infrastructure even if a skater could get out of serving.

Meh? He pretty much invented multi-revolution jump tech along with Lussi. More to it than titles.

30 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I've never heard anyone argue for Katarina Witt even though she has 2 Oly golds. 

Because memorable performances matter. There's also the fact that "GOAT" usually is from a North American stand point, and Witt was from East Germany.

 

30 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Yuna Kim gets mentioned often in spite of fewer world and Olympic titles . Even Michelle Kwan gets mentioned somewhat often, not as much now but in her day (though probably primarily by NA fans).  I can't think of any others that have been candidates for female GOAT.

Asada? Ito? Michelle Kwan had many memorable performances, with superb technique if we consider spins and spirals.

30 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

On the male side, Alexei Yagudin is never considered in spite of being dominant in his day, having won more world titles than Plushenko, and I think most people consider him to be a more complete skater. 

I consider Yagudin to be better than Plushenko. So, really, depends on whom you're talking to, whom they've watched, what they've watched, and what they're thinking about. Even whom they currently follow. I don't really see why titles matter as much as the actual performances. We keep discussing how crap the judging is, and then we still see the titles? Kind of contradictory.

 

30 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Longevity - showing that you can do it time after time for a longer period. 

Already told you my opinion on this in the choreographers thread.

14 minutes ago, eagle said:

Mr Gillis has passed away long ago. 

Mr Button is 89, assuming he lives pass 100, there's still 10++ years to go make it.

 

And? The original quote was about medals being considered for being a GOAT. If you meant "shaking hands" literally, well, Button might not live past 90 at all. An entirely pointless sentiment. ETA: You did go back and add Grafstrom in now, though, so dropping it.

[rockstaryuzu]

35 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

  I can't think of any others that have been candidates for female GOAT. 

Tbh, l think it's still not that common for people to think of female athletes in those terms. For whatever reason, there just aren't that many female athletes that stand out to people on that way. But I'd certainly give it to Witt, at least for now. In my opinion, Medvedeva has very strong potential to become the G.O.A.T., especially now that she's decided to go for longevity in her career. A lot depends on the choices she makes in the next year or so. 

[yuzuangel]

1 minute ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Tbh, l think it's still not that common for people to think of female athletes in those terms. For whatever reason, there just aren't that many female athletes that stand out to people on that way. But I'd certainly give it to Witt, at least for now. In my opinion, Medvedeva has very strong potential to become the G.O.A.T., especially now that she's decided to go for longevity in her career. A lot depends on the choices she makes in the next year or so. 

This is probably more suited for GSC but I don't know anyone who really considers Katarina Witt the GOAT unless you're only going by medal counts. 

[rockstaryuzu]

Just now, yuzuangel said:

This is probably more suited for GSC but I don't know anyone who really considers Katarina Witt the GOAT unless you're only going by medal counts. 

I think that depends on whether you're old enough to have watched her in her competitive years , or not. I'd also put Midori Ito in contention because of her 3A, but I'd never consider Michelle Kwan - I remember nothing about Kwan's competitive performances even though I know I watched them. The G.O.A.T. designation can be highly subjective. 

 

That being said, I think that one of the main requirements for being the G.O.A.T. is probably that a decent majority of people agree that you are. 

[eagle]

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

 

I've always thought it was strange that he was always completely ignored on the GOAT list, even with the recency bias.  Obviously he didn't have that much competition in his day, but Button had a lot less competition in his day than this era and that doesn't stop him from being in the conversation.  Personally don't think Plushenko should be in the conversation, but even with him, I've seen fans argue that he only won as much as he did because of weak competition but at least he was skating against a full field.  Button won his titles in the aftermath of WWII - I don't know what got you out of serving but I have to think that the skating field was depleted from destroyed infrastructure even if a skater could get out of serving....

 

 

I only found out abt Mr Gillis after consulting Wikipedia. One reason I think its cos mass media was not as widespread & whatever was there were most destroyed during WW2.

 

One major reason Dick Button is in the picture is cos... He's still alive. He can voice up to make himself relevant. Or the media will come knocking to ask his opinion.

 

As for Ladies discipline, it's a different category so I didnt even think abt them across the sports. Some OG champs, male or female, are better known than others cos they were the 1st to win from their region or their country. 

 

Yuzuru was the 1st Asian men singles figure skater to win OG gold. Shisuka Arakawa was the 1st Asian ladies singles. Shen/Zhao were the 1st Asian pair

 

As for Ladies/women, they wouldnt be in my list until they win 2 OG Golds, a few WCs.

For non Olympic sports, World titles is used as benchmark. For this, squash queen Nicol David has won 8 WC, no 1 in rankings for 9 years. Both are record breaking feats, the squash world body call her GOAT upon her retirement announcement this yr.

 

[Old Cat Lady]

17 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Meh? He pretty much invented multi-revolution jump tech along with Lussi. More to it than titles.

 

That particular paragraph was to point out the contradictions in including/excluding some over others.  Almost no one points to  Grafstrom or Salchow, with 10 world titles, in the GOAT debate. 

 

Grafstrom checks off the same boxes as Button.  They both introduced technical aspects to the sport, were dominant in their time, and won the most important titles multiple times.  Same with Salchow - though he only won the Olympics once. 

 

The point of my entire post is that, from a sporting perspective, there are several commonalities in popular GOAT candidates, most of which translate throughout most sports

 

8 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Tbh, l think it's still not that common for people to think of female athletes in those terms. For whatever reason, there just aren't that many female athletes that stand out to people on that way. 

 

It's strange that, that's the attitude in a sport where females tend to be the popular face, at least until fairly recently. In tennis and gymnastics, I think there is a lot of GOAT debates. Don't know much about other sports but I imagine with a lot of other sports there's less talk just because women in the sport don't have as much tradition as the men?

 

34 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Asada? Ito? Michelle Kwan had many memorable performances, with superb technique if we consider spins and spirals.

I consider Yagudin to be better than Plushenko. So, really, depends on whom you're talking to, whom they've watched, what they've watched, and what they're thinking about. 

 

I'm not talking about personal favorites, of which, then there would be a huge list of candidates. But about people who are widely mentioned in these categories.  I personally think Yagudin is greater than Plushenko for the reasons I mentioned above.  They both check off all the boxes for me but, personally, I think Yagudin edges out Plushenko because Yagudin was a more complete skater with more consistently memorable programs. 

 

However, when the GOAT conversation comes up in English speaking media, it's consistently Button, Plushenko, and Hanyu for the men. I think they get chosen for the reasons I mentioned above.  

 

Once again, when I say "longevity", I mean consistently at the top of the sport, not who's been in the sport the longest. Then it's a question of how long is long enough?  Does being in the top 3 for 10 years matter more than dominating for 4?  How do you weigh those who were great for a year or two then left versus those who were competitive for a couple cycles? 

[Old Cat Lady]

Just now, hoodie axel said:

But I'm not talking about personal favorites either. Several people do mention Asada, Ito, and Yagudin for GOATs. Are you simply talking about a small sample of people/ North American media who talk about GOATs?

 

I'm just talking based on what I've seen as a whole personally, which, of course, is all English speaking and mostly NA and whatever gets translated (a few Russian and Japanese articles) so maybe a small sample?  

 

I see other names get thrown around on forums too, but not in large volumes.  

[hoodie axel]

Just now, Old Cat Lady said:

 

I'm just talking based on what I've seen as a whole personally, which, of course, is all English speaking and mostly NA and whatever gets translated (a few Russian and Japanese articles) so maybe a small sample?  

 

I see other names get thrown around on forums too, but not in large volumes.  

Maybe just make that GOAT thread, as this is OT.

[eagle]

53 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

 

And? The original quote was about medals being considered for being a GOAT. If you meant "shaking hands" literally, well, Button might not live past 90 at all. An entirely pointless sentiment. ETA: You did go back and add Grafstrom in now, though, so dropping it.

Well you were the one who asked question, I answered. I checked & found out Gillis G has won OG Gold 3X. I do consider OG gold medals as one of criteria to be regarded as GOAT, across all Olympic sports.

When compared between different sports, titles is what we see. Debating on programmes, leaving a mark all that, is for die hard figure skating fans.

 

So in this regard I do not regard Michelle Kwan as GOAT. Blunt as it sounds, she did not enough mental fortitude to make it for OG Gold. Other OG champs also had to compete under intense pressure with very capable rivals but they made the last lap

[Old Cat Lady]

To continue discussion from the general Yuzuru chat

[hoodie axel]

Well, simply starting where we left off, I guess. I think Dick Button, Hanyu, and Plushenko are well-remembered and presented as GOATs for men, especially from NA media (and some of the Russian and Japanese media) because of how visible they have been, even quite recently. Dick Button and his achievements were discussed repeatedly during his commentary, and he's a well-known figure for it. Plushenko was widely discussed right upto Sochi (and still remains visible as a name attached with Hanyu's, and as a coach and a visible figure in Russian skating), and Hanyu himself is a recent double OGM (and NBC was comparing this achievement with Button's, and was wondering aloud if he'd be able to match it before PC happened, for that matter, like it was wondering aloud about Kim before Sochi, with regards to Witt and Henie). The sport is more popular in these parts of the world currently, compared to Sweden (where Grafstrom and Salchow were from). These countries (especially considering NBC's coverage of Pyeongchang) are widely visible within this sport.

 

My point with bringing up Button's technical development agaisnt Plushenko's in that discussion was simply to say that I am more fine with Button being the GOAT than Plushy, even if they both had diminished fields they were competing against. Plushy did himself also somewhat push the tech aspect, with his attempts at 4T+3T+3Lo (although I don't think he ever landed this cleanly), 4T+3Lo (although I don't think he attempted this in competition ever), and 3A+1Lo+3F (he lipped),  but if we compare his accomplishments against the demands of the sport in the era he competed, I don't think he measures up, with the kind of choreography and skating skills he usually brought up, even if he did end up winning a lot. I think it's too hard to compare such drastically different eras, though.

 

I don't think titles are what matter most in this sport. The judging is not something I'd like to deal with and determine things like "who should have won" and then count the number of titles. I do think most fans and most media take this as the main factor for GOATdom, though, mainly because medals are the first things visible.

 

Interesting point about the American media touting Kwan particularly as the GOAT. If we consider her international visibility, I've read she wasn't very well known outside of NA at all. I wonder what would be happening if she were a more recent skater, given how much more visible American media coverage has become since then.

 

ETA: There's also the question of whether being a (or "the") GOAT matters. I don't think it does, but coming up with lists to debate about it is fun. And a good motivation factor to watch old videos, lol.