Best choreographers/choreography

[hoodie axel]

In your opinion!

 

Just for singles', if we include 6.0, I think the best ever choreographer is Sandra Bezic, and Lori Nichol is easily second. If not, it becomes interesting, since I think Lori Nichol is first, and David Wilson second Will add links to argue later, but what's your opinion?

[Yume]

David Wilson is second? Interesting. Why?

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Yume said:

David Wilson is second? Interesting. Why?

I think Wilson gains the most points for quickly adapting and creating programs that fit early CoP standards extremely well. Right off the bat, he created this:

 

1. Sasha Cohen, Romeo and Juliet, 2006 Olympics LP

Which I grant masterpiece status, and it's the best ladies' program under CoP. Practically everything there is perfect and fits the music.

 

The next season, he created

2. Jeff Buttle, Ararat, 2007 Canada Nationals

3. Yuna Kim, The Lark Ascending, 2007 Worlds

 

Buttle's program was very interesting, especially in how it builds right through the straight line step sequence and into the final jump. Buttle never performed it well (although this version I think he performed only thrice, but I never got to see 4CCs), but the choreography is masterful.

 

Yuna's program is the next masterpiece he choreographed, and the second best ladies' program under CoP for me (one of the reasons Lori is first, BTW, is because the Mao has her Liebestraume next in the list). He latched on to her skating quality perfectly here, and the sense of a senior bursting out onto the scene is portrayed extremely well in this program.

 

The next few seasons, I think most of his praise-worthy work is with Yuna, but nothing too of note when it comes to actual choreography, although Danse Macabre did allow her to perform extremely well. This is around where the CoP of the time was starting to worsen ladies' programs, with bad spiral sequence and footwork rules, too... until 2011. Here comes the next piece of note, for me:

 

4. Yuna Kim, Homage to Korea, 2011 Worlds

Again here he shows quick adoption of the CoP rules of the time, by making a much simpler spiral sequence that fit the choreo very well, and good interpretation of the traditional Korean music through interesting arm positions through the program. I don't think it's a perfect program, skated only once in the season and in need of a lot of fine-tuning, but it shows flashes of brilliance.

 

He didn't have a great showing in 2012 from what I can remember, but in 2013 he created two great programs, which is quite unusual since we crave for even one good program from this choreographer now. Those were:

5. Javier Fernandez, Charlie Chaplin, 2013 Europeans

6. Yuna Kim, Les Miserables, 2013 Worlds

 

(I will not be acknowledging any of his work with Patrick Chan in this era)

 

The program for Fernandez is great, a wonderful fit for his personality, and a great way to fit demanding tech content into the ever-more-annoying CoP rules, while still making it look very good. Kim's program isn't choregraphically brilliant, definitely packed all of her strengths into a big package, but it is absolutely perfect package for her, allowing her to give that legendary performance based practically off her own life story up until that point.

 

I don't think Wilson did any great work for 2014 and 2015. In 2016, he again created a program that allowed a skater to give a great performance even if not with great choreo, this time for Javi at Worlds 2016, with Guys and Dolls (extremely annoying I can't find a video   ). Then again for 2017 Worlds he gave us Patrick Chan's Journey.

 

Since then, he has been stale. But I do think people tend to exaggerate how bad he is (probably because he is very in-demand, because there's very little fresh talent around), because he tends to recycle work (or so it seems), but I think it's slightly unfair in that regard. He had great programs, two masterpieces since the inception of the CoP (and the two best ladies programs under CoP, although they rank very, very, very highly in an overall scheme, too), and it wasn't even "oh, it's because he knows how to work with Yuna", because it was her first season with him. He adpated to the CoP rules extremely quickly, in fact, as shown with Cohen's program. It can be said that he usually takes a developed skater to make a good program, but he's had great programs for top skaters nonetheless which is what counts. Currently, though, he's in a bad rut: his program for Mihara were criticized as being "for Yuna", but the exhibitions he choregraphed for her and Yuzuru were uninspired too, just random pretty movement they are each known for.

 

I do think his choreo is a little less "dimensional" or "dance-like" compared to Tom Dickson, and also I think Kurt Browning and Yuka Sato are more talented choreographers who hit it out of the ballpark when they actually do choreograph (very excited to see what Han Yan will do, since he worked with both!). But Dickson's body of work in terms of "great programs" to me is smaller, even though he's a more consistent choreographer than Wilson, and Browning and Sato rarely ever choreograph fully fledged programs, and they all too produce(d) their greatest works with specific skaters. Dickson makes all his skaters look good and I'd probably want to go to him in order to develop my skills (Dickson is third based off body of work); I can't that say about Wilson, but he does make the ones he gels with look good, too, and when Wilson hits it out of the park, he REALLY hits it out of the park, and he's had a greater body of work than the other three I mentioned here, for me. I think body of work overall matters BTW, because I'd LOVE to otherwise say that Karen Chen is the best choreographer ever, given her On Golden Pond.

 

ETA: That said, it might be difficult to compare choreography of newer talents (mostly thinking about Bourne and Buttle, and maybe Richaud if he rises) to the ones who've been around for a while, especially Wilson who got to experience making choreo with the earliest of CoP rules, and the rules are far tighter and far more weighed down now, and Wilson is quite uninspired currently. So another criteria (which I mostly haven't considered, going based off bodies of work) is to see who can STILL make their skaters look good while navigating through all the level requirements. But even in that regard, Wilson has recent work with Chan and Fernandez, as noted.

[anski]

To me, Marina Zueva is one of the best. Maybe she’s more well-known because of her coaching Tessa and Scott and the Shibsibs, but she also created some of the most iconic programs for Gordeeva and Grinkov. As a choreographer she has worked too with Sasha Cohen, Marin Honda and Yulia Lipnitskaya. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hoodie axel]

I had no idea she'd done G/G's Moonlight Sonata! I like quite a few instances in that program. I'm not a fan of her Nutcracker for Cohen, though (eta: ... Or most of her singles choreo)

[Yume]

6 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I think Wilson gains the most points for quickly adapting and creating programs that fit early CoP standards extremely well. Right off the bat, he created this:

 

1. Sasha Cohen, Romeo and Juliet, 2006 Olympics LP

Which I grant masterpiece status, and it's the best ladies' program under CoP. Practically everything there is perfect and fits the music.

 

The next season, he created

2. Jeff Buttle, Ararat, 2007 Canada Nationals

3. Yuna Kim, The Lark Ascending, 2007 Worlds

 

Buttle's program was very interesting, especially in how it builds right through the straight line step sequence and into the final jump. Buttle never performed it well (although this version I think he performed only thrice, but I never got to see 4CCs), but the choreography is masterful.

 

Yuna's program is the next masterpiece he choreographed, and the second best ladies' program under CoP for me (one of the reasons Lori is first, BTW, is because the Mao has her Liebestraume next in the list). He latched on to her skating quality perfectly here, and the sense of a senior bursting out onto the scene is portrayed extremely well in this program.

 

The next few seasons, I think most of his praise-worthy work is with Yuna, but nothing too of note when it comes to actual choreography, although Danse Macabre did allow her to perform extremely well. This is around where the CoP of the time was starting to worsen ladies' programs, with bad spiral sequence and footwork rules, too... until 2011. Here comes the next piece of note, for me:

 

4. Yuna Kim, Homage to Korea, 2011 Worlds

Again here he shows quick adoption of the CoP rules of the time, by making a much simpler spiral sequence that fit the choreo very well, and good interpretation of the traditional Korean music through interesting arm positions through the program. I don't think it's a perfect program, skated only once in the season and in need of a lot of fine-tuning, but it shows flashes of brilliance.

 

He didn't have a great showing in 2012 from what I can remember, but in 2013 he created two great programs, which is quite unusual since we crave for even one good program from this choreographer now. Those were:

5. Javier Fernandez, Charlie Chaplin, 2013 Europeans

6. Yuna Kim, Les Miserables, 2013 Worlds

 

(I will not be acknowledging any of his work with Patrick Chan in this era)

 

The program for Fernandez is great, a wonderful fit for his personality, and a great way to fit demanding tech content into the ever-more-annoying CoP rules, while still making it look very good. Kim's program isn't choregraphically brilliant, definitely packed all of her strengths into a big package, but it is absolutely perfect package for her, allowing her to give that legendary performance based practically off her own life story up until that point.

 

I don't think Wilson did any great work for 2014 and 2015. In 2016, he again created a program that allowed a skater to give a great performance even if not with great choreo, this time for Javi at Worlds 2016, with Guys and Dolls (extremely annoying I can't find a video   ). Then again for 2017 Worlds he gave us Patrick Chan's Journey.

 

Since then, he has been stale. But I do think people tend to exaggerate how bad he is (probably because he is very in-demand, because there's very little fresh talent around), because he tends to recycle work (or so it seems), but I think it's slightly unfair in that regard. He had great programs, two masterpieces since the inception of the CoP (and the two best ladies programs under CoP, although they rank very, very, very highly in an overall scheme, too), and it wasn't even "oh, it's because he knows how to work with Yuna", because it was her first season with him. He adpated to the CoP rules extremely quickly, in fact, as shown with Cohen's program. It can be said that he usually takes a developed skater to make a good program, but he's had great programs for top skaters nonetheless which is what counts. Currently, though, he's in a bad rut: his program for Mihara were criticized as being "for Yuna", but the exhibitions he choregraphed for her and Yuzuru were uninspired too, just random pretty movement they are each known for.

 

I do think his choreo is a little less "dimensional" or "dance-like" compared to Tom Dickson, and also I think Kurt Browning and Yuka Sato are more talented choreographers who hit it out of the ballpark when they actually do choreograph (very excited to see what Han Yan will do, since he worked with both!). But Dickson's body of work in terms of "great programs" to me is smaller, even though he's a more consistent choreographer than Wilson, and Browning and Sato rarely ever choreograph fully fledged programs, and they all too produce(d) their greatest works with specific skaters. Dickson makes all his skaters look good and I'd probably want to go to him in order to develop my skills (Dickson is third based off body of work); I can't that say about Wilson, but he does make the ones he gels with look good, too, and when Wilson hits it out of the park, he REALLY hits it out of the park, and he's had a greater body of work than the other three I mentioned here, for me. I think body of work overall matters BTW, because I'd LOVE to otherwise say that Karen Chen is the best choreographer ever, given her On Golden Pond.

 

ETA: That said, it might be difficult to compare choreography of newer talents (mostly thinking about Bourne and Buttle, and maybe Richaud if he rises) to the ones who've been around for a while, especially Wilson who got to experience making choreo with the earliest of CoP rules, and the rules are far tighter and far more weighed down now, and Wilson is quite uninspired currently. So another criteria (which I mostly haven't considered, going based off bodies of work) is to see who can STILL make their skaters look good while navigating through all the level requirements. But even in that regard, Wilson has recent work with Chan and Fernandez, as noted.

After reading your post i have to say that i give more value to Wilson's work than before. I see him a bit differently. It's obvious that he's/was a CoP genius given how Yuna was able to get the points that others couldn't.

HOWEVER, imo, he's not 2nd after Lori. I give Lori the first place too because she created some iconic programs, has longevity on top, still does some good things, even if she lacks innovation. But Wilsob is not that good, mostly consistently good to put him in 2nd place.

First the only program that you talked about and i can call masterpiece is the lark ascending. The kind of program where everything is in place, you don't see how those 4min went so fast. Skated cleanly, it's the only program of that quad that i would give 70+ in PCS. Clearly superior to Gershwin. Chaplin is close to a masterpiece too but i'm not totally convinced. The other masterpiece that i would give to him is danse macabre. That's all. Clearly he was inspired with only one or two skaters. While there are other choreographers who deliver with many skaters each season.

I put easily Tom Dickson above him. You said that Wilson quickly created programs that fit perfectly the coP. But there is this 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwjm3fiTidjhAhWDSRUIHdczDlkQwqsBMAB6BAgEEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

That's Dickson's work. Created in 2005-2006 when Yuna was junior (she recycled) And i think it's one of the best tango de Roxanne for many people.

I think his muse is Satoko Miyahara since he delivers everytime he does choreo for her. These are masterpieces

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwij6_-bi9jhAhXOVBUIHXxnAHIQwqsBMAJ6BAgGEBA&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwjN0Nuui9jhAhWZUxUIHfzSAl0QwqsBMAB6BAgHEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwiZh83Ii9jhAhVTShUIHXE_AgQQwqsBMAN6BAgHEBM&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

And of course he did a senior program for Rika Kihira this season

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwig5ZGDjdjhAhXF66QKHYhbBxUQwqsBMAB6BAgHEAU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Not the junior one that Wilson did.

He has mostly less "prestigious" (by that i mean skaters who don't win world or olympic titles) clients. So maybe that's why he gets less recognition i guess. 

Nikolai Morozov is often forgotten (maybe because he's not so liked). He made some good things like this for Volosozhar/Trankov https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwid2-3zkNjhAhUWVRUIHcedBpgQwqsBMAd6BAgEECU&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov&cshid=1555538824833

Or this for Ilinykh/Katsalapov 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwifl_HqktjhAhVLzKQKHb2HAtcQwqsBMAZ6BAgDECI&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Shae despite being "new" has enough good work to challenge Wilson even if she can't go above him for now. Seimei and Skyfall are jewels.

[sallycinnamon]

If we only consider choreographies in the past 15 years then I do agree that Lori Nichol and David Wilson have probably the best body of works. Sasha's Romeo and Juliet, or anything that David choreographed for Yuna (and yes, especially Homage to Korea and The Lark Ascending + Dance Macabre) are amongst the best ladies programs created in the CoP system. Even if his works in the past couple of years seem less creative and innovative, many of his works that he created in the first decade of the new judging system are beautiful and he could really adapt to the new system very well.

Lori choreographed fantastic programs, amongst others my favourites are her works for Mao (if I have to choose only a few, then her SP from 2013/14 or her latest programs, both Ritual Fire Dance programs or her Madame Butterfly). She also choreographed beautiful programs for Carolina, like her programs for the 2013/14 season especially Bolero. I also loved many of her programs for Sui/Han or Denis Ten (The Artist, or his 2014/15 LP come to my mind now). 

It's really hard to compare their works with the newer talents, maybe in a few years it'd be easier to do. But for me, Shae-Lynn or Jeff made such great programs that I'd put them already in Top 5 probably, if not Top 3  

There are other choreographers that worked in both system like  @anski mentioned Zoueva or Tarasova as well. Tom Dickson is also one of my favourites, or some of Camerlengo's programs are also amongst the bests.

[hoodie axel]

(I notice so many grammatical errors in my post now. I should take more time to proofread.)

7 hours ago, Yume said:

After reading your post i have to say that i give more value to Wilson's work than before.

I'm glad I changed your mind a little! He's not my favorite choreographer, but he does get too bad of a rap, IMO.

 

Good to see we agree on Lori first (I want to insert her programs in a post, but she has too many of them. Let's just think about a lot of her programs for Kwan and Asada here ). I could easily imagine Dickson second because of his consistent work, I agree, and yes, his Tango for Yuna (especially for a junior, very rare) was wonderful. I can't access your links for Miyahara, but I think one of them would be Sayuri's theme? In terms of developing a skater, he's actually one of the best around, IMO.

 

I would like to point out his work for Matt Savoie and Jeremy Abbott here, instead of Miyahara, though, especially Savoie who was a bit of an unknown quantity, but was very gifted. Too bad the USFSA usually goes for the more consistent skater (like Lysacek ). Very intricate, and "dimensional" like I mentioned, and very edgy and sophisticated music. His skaters shine with the SS and TR aspects of choreo, too.

 

7 hours ago, Yume said:

Nikolai Morozov is often forgotten (maybe because he's not so liked).

IDK why he's not mentioned by others, but for me I often get confused when I try to look up past skaters and see who choreographed their programs. For example, Yagudin's programs between 2000 to the 2002 worlds are all phenomenal (and I liked the Skate Canada 2002 SP very much too), and he was with TAT, but I often hear his program footwork was done by Morozov? IDK. Morozov (and let's just toss in TAT and her team here, I guess) did do Sasha Cohen SPs like Malaguena, and I love her Dark Eyes SP very much.

 

TAT did some very good work with developing her skaters. I don't like her work with Asada for the most part, though.

 

I am not sure 100% about ID and Pairs, because I haven't watched past ones too much. Zueva's work with VM, DW, and the Shibs I like very much, though, and she also worked with S/H.

 

7 hours ago, Yume said:

Shae despite being "new" has enough good work to challenge Wilson even if she can't go above him for now. Seimei and Skyfall are jewels.

7 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

It's really hard to compare their works with the newer talents, maybe in a few years it'd be easier to do. But for me, Shae-Lynn or Jeff made such great programs that I'd put them already in Top 5 probably, if not Top 3  

I still mostly consider Bourne and Buttle to be amateur talents, as I think their impulses are a little too on-the-nose, but not bad, although I like Bourne a lot more than Buttle whom I've found limited (but he can hide weaknesses very well, like with Zhou). I can get why they're popular because they're modern. For Bourne, I agree on Skyfall, but amongst her programs for Yuzuru, I actually far prefer Hope and Legacy to Seimei.

[Yume]

TAT's work with Mao was awful. Little choreo between the elements and music choices that didn't suit Mao during the two most important seasons of the quad. She was betting everything on the step sequences, which were always good i have to give her that.

Morozov was to her what Gleikhengauz is to Eteri. Just that Gleikhengauz gets more credit. I give a special point to choreographers able to make good choreos in all categories. And Morozov did that. Unlike Wilson for example.

 

ETA: Sayuri was made by Lori. Easily one of the best programs.

Linked firedance, miss saïgon and invierno porteno.

[hoodie axel]

25 minutes ago, Yume said:

Sayuri was made by Lori.

LOL I forgot again which one was which. But incredible that Lori was the one who packaged her SS display! Great way to highlight her strength at the Olympics.

[Old Cat Lady]

Funny, I was actually thinking about this after I was complaining about David Wilson on the "thoughts on programs" thread so I started compiling lists of programs by choreographer. It's a lot more work than anticipated and I got a bit distracted with other things so I never finished it.  

 

This is a hard question to answer actually.  First, I think you need to define what makes a great choreographer. These are the qualities I can think of off the top of my head:

 

1. strategy - who best milks the scoring system?How well does the choreographer understand what the skater can handle? How well does he hide weakness of the skater while emphasizing the strengths?  How well are they able to adapt to needs? At least this year, I think Shae and Jeffrey did really well with this with Vincent and Nathan.  The many shorter movements hide their inferior edge quality while giving the illusion of content. They both had programs that looked busy but was comprised of simplistic movements that these skaters could handle while still landing jumps.   it's enough to fool the judges ... or give the judges enough of an excuse to mark the way they want.  

 

2. Longevity - I guess we give this to David Wilson. Pretty sure he has the largest body of work.  Whether you like his work or not, we can't deny how many times medals were won with his programs. Pretty sure he has the largest body of work of active choreographers

 

3. Consistent excellence. Not sure who I'd give this to. I think this is the one where the list is most relevant.  This kind of just comes down to what percentage of the programs were good. Also, what's better; a choreographer with higher highs and lower lows or one that is reliable? 

 

4. Impact. How memorable was the program?  Was the program innovative? Did it elevate the skater? If I had to pick a single program it would be Sui/Han's long program.  But then there's also a question of, how much is the choreographer and how much is the skater?

 

I'm sure there's more that I can't think of right now.  Taking a cursory look, I'll grudgingly give it to Nichol for this year at least though I dislike a lot of her work but I think she's second to Wilson in how long she's been at the top and I think she did the best program this year.  Of course, if I'm only naming a choreographer for this year I don't think Longevity is all that relevant.  Must think on this more.

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Longevity - I guess we give this to David Wilson.

Why?

[Old Cat Lady]

25 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Why?

 

Why Wilson or why am I including it in the consideration?

 

For the former, honestly I don't know exactly how long he's been doing it. I just know that he's been cranking out programs for top skaters for many many  years and he seems to have the biggest body of work. But I know Lori's been doing it for a couple decades now so if it's her, I have no dispute. I haven't followed skating consistently so I'm not sure if she's produced top programs year after year

 

If you're questioning the latter, I guess it depends on whether you're asking for greatest career or greatest talent. If you're talking the greatest talent, then I don't think it's that relevant actually.

 

ETA: I just realized you said just for singles in the op and I picked Lori based on S/h. 

[hoodie axel]

I don't think longevity with nothing much of note is a good thing. Nichol has more longevity than Wilson, for me, because she's had great programs since 1996 worlds with Kwan at the very least (I'm fairly sure I remember seeing her with a few top guns in 1988 Olympics too). Maybe Wilson has been around longer than that, but how many great programs do you remember of his?

[Old Cat Lady]

17 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I don't think longevity with nothing much of note is a good thing. 

 

I agree with that.  My knowledge of skating history is just very spotty 

 

I would also say that I don't think every year counts when I think of "longevity".  If someone had a big success and it was 5 years before anything of note, then they had another couple years of success, then another couple years of nothing, and another year of relative success, I don't consider that great longevity.