Mock judging panel

[robin]

17 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Isn't "only ONE step as preceding movement before solo jump in SP" supposed to be given the -1 deduction? Does this not count for Lutz? 

But I guess that since it's such a marvelous jump (don't remember if it got +2 or +3 from me), the final GOE should still be positive. 

 

Ohh that’s a part of the rules I didn’t know about. -1 seems appropriate 

 

Although she did one of those double choctaw steps so maybe they count as two?

 

It would be a big flaw in the rules if transitions weighed that much that a superior jump like Tukt’s 3Lz ends up in the negatives 

[Murieleirum]

Just now, robin said:

It would be a big flaw in the rules if transitions weighed that much that a superior jump like Tukt’s 3Lz ends up in the negatives 

 

There are so many NOT clean take-offs around, that maybe 'clean textbook take-off' should become an extra bullet? 

 

Ah, in any case, I didn't notice other steps beside that one right before the jump, it depends how soon they were before the jump I guess... I'm terrible at recognizing steps so maybe you are right! 

[yuzupon]

14 minutes ago, robin said:

 

It would be a big flaw in the rules if transitions weighed that much that a superior jump like Tukt’s 3Lz ends up in the negatives 

Uhm, if it's in the SP, and that 3Lz is a solo jump, wasn't that the kinda thing Ambessi and Dolfini talked about in their analysis? That no matter how good the jump is, no preceeding step into a solo jump in SP should get negative GOE for not adhering to the requirement? Or is there something I'm missing here?

[Murieleirum]

5 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

Uhm, if it's in the SP, and that 3Lz is a solo jump, wasn't that the kinda thing Ambessi and Dolfini talked about in their analysis? That no matter how good the jump is, no preceeding step into a solo jump in SP should get negative GOE for not adhering to the requirement? Or is there something I'm missing here?

 

It is the thing they were talking about - but in this case, there is a step. Pretty clearly. But the requirements are 'more than one step/movement immediately preceding the jump', for example you can see Medvedeva and Zagitova doing multiple difficult steps into their solo jump. So, theoretically, if there is only one step, then you get -1 deduction. ZERO steps/movements gets you -3 deduction. 

[yuzupon]

1 minute ago, Murieleirum said:

 

It is the thing they were talking about - but in this case, there is a step. Pretty clearly. But the requirements are 'more than one step/movement immediately preceding the jump', for example you can see Medvedeva and Zagitova doing multiple difficult steps into their solo jump. So, theoretically, if there is only one step, then you get -1 deduction. ZERO steps/movements gets you -3 deduction. 

Ah, thank you! For clarifying that. I just needed to make sure.

[robin]

Well, I guess if Tukt didn’t have that step before her jump it would still be a bit too much of a deduction but, oh well, the skaters that don’t have enough steps do that knowing they’ll get the deduction and Tukt did do a choctaw so the world is fine for now

[Xen]

Last call for Dabin Choi SP. If none, I'm going to move on to the FS.

 

Regarding steps preceeding jump-I'll list the jump entry methods, so if you see these steps preceeding a jump, do NOT count them as the steps preceeding jumps to fulfill the bullet or the SP requirement.

 

Salchows: can be a left 3 turn to vault and jump, or a backwards 3 turn-mohawk entry

Toe Loop: can be a direct forward 3 turn and immediately jump (if using right foot to 3 turn), or left foot 3 turn-put right foot down-tap left toepick to jump

Loop: no standard one, most people I know just jump directly off the right back outside edge

Flip: can be left forward 3 turn to vault and jump, or same as salchow-back 3 turn-->mohawk--> tap and jump

Lutz: none, usually just tap and vault directly off a back left outside edge

Axel: also none, just the standard move weight to left forward outside edge and jump.

 

For both salchows and loops, I've seen rolling continuous 3 turns (usually 2-3) as entries-that is none standard, and should be considered steps preceeding jumps, and for loop jumps is actually somewhat difficult because you have to check against the momentum to jump (otherwise you will over rotate the entry for the jump).

 

 

[hoodie axel]

Isn't a mohawk a standard entry for the toeloop, too?

[Xen]

9 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Isn't a mohawk a standard entry for the toeloop, too?

I've never used it, and haven't seen it before. Would it put you in the correct edge (right back outside)? Though I guess you could go mohawk--> extend right foot and then tap left toe to go up?

Mohawk is more commonly seen and used for salchows and flips.

[hoodie axel]

What entry does Boyang use for his 4Ts? It's not a 3-turn. I think it's mohawk->change of foot->tap? I mean, that's not a difficult entry, at least.

 

 

 

 

[Nuitsuki]

*put metal armour on* *take a deep breath*

Alright guys, I've done my part. Warning: it's very different from the ISU results.

 

Firstly, disclamer: I do apply the 'weak take off' deduction for lutz and flip. While I agree that jumps have a certain degree of natural prerotation, flip and lutz have the least prerotation tendency among all. Also, I do think full blade toe pick can be detected in real time. I've compiled some jumps for illustration. No effect added, slow motion footage was from the original video and I didn't do anything with them.

 

 

In real time: Comparing 3flip of Alina and Marin, you can see that the direction which Marin pointed her toe pick towards indicates prerotation, and you can actually see the moment when ~2/3 of her blade touched the ice. While Alina also prerotated 3Flip, her toe pick was quite neat and fast.

In slow motion, I freezed the frame right before they take off. Marin already rotated on the ice over 180 degree, while Alina was just around that benchmark. That is to say, Marin did prerotate more on 3F than Alina, at least in the short program, ang my eyes do not fail to detect that.

 

However, it could be argue that because Marin did 3F3T, she needed more leverage, hence she pressed the blade harder than Alina who did solo 3F. To justify this point, I included Alina's 3Lz in her combo. In this case you can see clearly with normal speed that she pressed her toe pick harder and it became later full blade before she left the ice. Similarly with Evgenia, you can detect full blade toe pick on 3flip in real time. 

 

So my answer is that, for flip and lutz jumps, I'd give weak take off deduction to people who use blade to pick because (1) it's recognisable in real time, (2) using blade goes against the mechanism of toe jumps. In this case, I'd given deduction to Marin's 3Flip, Alina's 3Lz (but she fell on the combo so maximum -3 deduction is already given), and Evgenia's 3F.

 

Now, in edge jumps, I said earlier that deduction should applied for who prerotates over 180 on ice. However, after watching 3Lo from Marin, Sakoto and Evgenia, I have to admit that it is nearly impossible to tell among them, who prerotates over 180 degree in normal speed. So I give up that idea.

 

Obviously, this is just my personal thoughts. But I want to make the standard as clear as possible. I didn't mention toe loop because so many skaters prerotate the toe loop in combo, and some of them prerotate on toe pick which is hard to caught, and given toe loop also has big natural prerotation on itself, I'd just give it a pass.

 

Alright, back to the individual scoring. I'd like to share how I grade GOE bullets here, please correct me if I was wrong 

 

Alina Z. 

Spoiler

- 3Lz3Lo: bullet 8. -3 GOE for fall

-3F: LFO-LBO rocker, LBO-LFO counter (hopped), LFO-LBI 3turn, 3F. Bullets 1, 3, 5, 6, 8 checked => +2 GOE.

- 2A: spiral, split jump, bracket, change foot, 2A, counter for exit (aka one hell of an 2A). Bullets 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 checked => +3 GOE.

 

Marin H.

Spoiler

- 3F3T: bullets 5, 6, 7, 8 checked. -1 for poor take off on 3F, -1 on UR. => 0 GOE

- 3Lo: Ina bauer, RFI-LBI mohawk, LBI-RBI (not sure what she wanted to do here? can't read the steps), RBI-RFI counter, RFI-RBO 3turn, 3Lo. Bullets 1, 5, 6, 7 checked. +2 GOE.

-2A: spiral, RBI-LFO 2A. Bullet 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 checked. +2 GOE.

 

Liza Tuk

Spoiler

- 3T3T: RFO-RBI 3turn, 3T3T. Bullets 3, 4, 7, 8 checked, weak landing -1 => +1 GOE

- 3Lz: choctaw?, 3lz. Bullets 4, 5, 6, 7 checked, -1 GOE for only 1 step preceding solo jump. => +1

- 2A: bullet 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 => +2 GOE.

 

Wakaba

Spoiler

2A: RFI-RBO bracket, change foot, 2A. Bullets 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 => +3 GOE

3Lz3T: RBI-LFI mohawk, LFI-RBI mohawk, change edge, 3Lz3T. Bullet 4, 5, 6, 7. => +2 GOE

3Flip: LFO-RBI choctaw, RBI-RFO bracket, RFO-RBI 3turn, something I can't read, 3F. Bullets 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 checked, -1 for flat edge. => +1 GOE.

Elena R.

Spoiler

-3Lz3T: LFO-RBI 3turn, change edge, jump. Bullets 4, 8 checked, -2 for obvious UR => -1 GOE.

-3Lo: some steps I can't read because curves were not recognisable, LBO-RFO mohawk, RFO-RBO rocker, step over, 3lo. Bullet 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 checked => +2 GOE

-2A: RFO-RBO rocker, some steps I can't read, LBI-LFO 3turn. Bullet 5, 6, 7 checked => +1 GOE

Gabrielle D.

Spoiler

3T3T: ina bauer, 3turn, 3T3T. Bullets 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 checked => +3 GOE.

3Lz!: i can't tell what steps they are but BESP uncles said the entry was difficult, so bullets 1, 8 checked. -1 for unclear edge => 0 GOE.

2A: RBI-RFI rocker (hopped), RFI-RBI counter, change foot, 2A. Bullet 1, 5, 6, 7 checked => +2 GOE

Mai M.

Spoiler

3Lz3T: RBO-LFI choctaw, jump. Bullet 5, 6 checked, -1 UR => 0

2A: RFI-RBI bracket, change foot, 2A. Bullets 1, 5, 6 checked => +1 GOE

3F: RBI-RFI counter, step over, LFO-LBO rocker, step over, RBI-RFO 3turn, RFO-RBI 3turn, change edge, RBO-LFI choctaw (flat), change edge to LBI, 3F. Bullets 1, 5, 6, 7 checked => +2 GOE

 

[hoodie axel]

I don't think I'll be able to do this anymore...

 

I'll observe.

[Nuitsuki]

7 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

I don't think I'll be able to do this anymore...

 

I'll observe.

 May I ask why? Is it because of me

[hoodie axel]

3 hours ago, Nuitsuki said:

 May I ask why? Is it because of me

Haha no, I just won't have the time to spend anymore.

[Nuitsuki]

21 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

Haha no, I just won't have the time to spend anymore.

Ah that sucks...join us next time!

 

@robin @Murieleirum how did you score GOE for jump?

i showed my friend the scoring and she said i ticked the bullet 5 “good extension on landing” & bullet 1 “difficult/creative entry” too generously  

ETA: actually i was very generous...probably I’d score again