General Skating Chat

[Xen]

Just now, xeyra said:

 

Do you mean 3A-1lo-3S or 3F here?

Sorry, uh 3A-1Lo-3S oops, gah messed up my combos....

[xeyra]

Plus one of the combos needs to be with a 2T otherwise there'd be 3 repetitions. And while some of the guys could jump a layout like that, you'd probably see the 4Lzers use their 4Lz3T combo in the first half. And variation on where the combos are, where the jumps are. Yuzu would probably jump that 4Lo in the first half, not the second, for example. 

[Valkyria]

41 minutes ago, Xen said:

This is why, despite my lament towards the PCS scores being less than 50%, I'm not sure I'm okay with PCS points being too dominant. PCS is possibly even more subjective than GOE scores, and this would allow the big feds to be even more dominant. There was mention a couple pages ago that some people in the skating judging world do not think Asians can be expressive/artistic-well, whatever that means. But I can imagine that some might be a bit annoyed by how many asian bell-curve destroyers there are right now in skating. The last world podium had 3 asian men, the next quad cycle for ladies is probably going to be Japan vs Russia, China's always a threat in Pairs.

 

It did get mentioned in a different forum, that if we go for an artistic program, it's highly likely to be dominated by the north american , canadian, european skaters similar to the status quo in Ice Dance, as the prevelance of warhorses indicate, tastes are conservative and defined by western/anglo-saxon preferences. Honestly, minus the Shibutani's (who are backed by the USFSA), have we seen another asian face in ice dancing crop up in the top 5 teams, in either seniors or juniors even? Let's not even get into Latinos, Africans etc....

 

I'm with you on the weight of TES and PCS being 50/50, which is what the CoP was initially built for. Since the tech increase has caught up to the limits imposed at the beginning and "broken" the system, they should have a look at the PCS multipliers so the ceiling gets raised to be even again with current TES. I still think working these kinks out of the current system + a more defined/stricter way of awarding GOE and PCS for judges would benefit the sport more than reworking it alltogether *le sigh*

 

Besides that, you bring up the issue of culture and/or racial bias and how it plays into the areas of scoring that are subjective, which is much more serious, imo. I get different tastes, but there are more ways to be expressive and "artistic" than what one personally likes: it goes back to training and supervising judges to limit these biases, but since ISU itself works in biases depending on where the wind blows... I don't see how it could go away. And once again they're shooting themselves in the foot, since one of the areas where FS is actually popular is East Asia. So yeah ¬¬

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Plus one of the combos needs to be with a 2T otherwise there'd be 3 repetitions. And while some of the guys could jump a layout like that, you'd probably see the 4Lzers use their 4Lz3T combo in the first half. And variation on where the combos are, where the jumps are. Yuzu would probably jump that 4Lo in the first half, not the second, for example. 

Yeah, but I'm thinking more of after Yuzu...cause otherwise I'd have slipped in a 4A....(Yuzu I think would be more like 4Lo 4A// 4T-1Lo-3S 4S-3T 4T 3A 3A-2T, though where to put the 4Lz... wow I see Yuzu's source of indecision...)

But yes, 4T 4Lz// 4Lo 4T-3T 4S2T 3A-1Lo-3S  3A, would this work? I was thinking more of figuring out a rough idea of where we'd be with TES scores potentially...actually what would be the min/maxing layout under the new system?

[Dori6886]

1 hour ago, Moria Polonius said:

 

In Polish TV we've got 2 sets of commentators, the Eurosport ones and the TVP ones. The Eurosport ones have a tendency to gush (the ones who adore Yuzu) and the TVP ones are very tech-focused. They don't just call the jumps, they comment how they factor in the score. For example, for last Worlds they commented that Kevin Reynolds was a whole different level, when he was the first to jump 2 different quads, pointed out how drastically the score jumped up after Boyang's Lutz or Yuzu's 4S-3t, that Yuzu's 4Lo was "a strong accent", that Nathan's quad contet had potential for enormous score, the commented on Yuzu's GOE for some jumps, "close to perfection". (And they commented how they didn't like Shoma's Loop as muchbas Yuzu's ). They never forget to mention the SP scores. When I listen to them, I'm torn between appreciating that they don't talk too much and being annoyed that they're all about the tech. In the light of this debate, however, this sort of approach might be exactly what's needed. 

2/3 Polish Eurosport commentators have skating expirience and when they speak about technical stuff (I agree it's too little) they are usually right. Only one is big Yuzu fan, but all three usually have very nice things to say about him. Female commentator prefers Javi.

TVP commentators are commenting like 95% of sports they broadcasting and they talk mostly about technical things and history. But they are prone to mistakes- both small and big. I remember them calling wrong jumps and adding 110 PCS to Yuzu's TES score. Sometimes they will start talking about the past and forgetting names, even pople that are still active in FS (Zueva for example). They can gush too. At least about Yuzu  

The advantage of TVP is that you can watch competitions they have right to broadcast on their internet site in good quality for free and they had great coverage of Rio Olympics there so I hope for the same for Pyeongchang.

[xeyra]

34 minutes ago, Xen said:

Yeah, but I'm thinking more of after Yuzu...cause otherwise I'd have slipped in a 4A....(Yuzu I think would be more like 4Lo 4A// 4T-1Lo-3S 4S-3T 4T 3A 3A-2T, though where to put the 4Lz... wow I see Yuzu's source of indecision...)

But yes, 4T 4Lz// 4Lo 4T-3T 4S2T 3A-1Lo-3S 3A, would this work? I was thinking more of figuring out a rough idea of where we'd be with TES scores potentially...actually what would be the min/maxing layout under the new system?

 

Min maxing depends on capabilities and risk/reward but without 4A, the max layout would probably go something like 4Lz3T 4F // 4Lz 4F2T 4S 4T 3A1Lo3F. Or better yet, 4Lz 4F // 4Lz3T 4F2T 4S 4T 3A1Lo3F. Or even 4Lz 4F // 4Lz3T 4F3Lo 4S 4T 3A1Lo3F!

 

But your suggestion, counting spins and steps:

4T 4Lz // 4Lo 4T-3T 4S-2T 3A-1Lo-3S 3A - 98.70 BV

4T 4Lz // 4F 4T-3T 4S-2T 3A-1Lo-3F 3A - 100.35 BV

This without another repeat quad instead of one of the 3As.

 

Max possible TES is hard to calculate because you don't know how the percentage will be applied exactly but going by the list the japanese created and assuming GOE intervals on combos are applied according to the first jump BV only (and without counting bonus), this would be an idea of the possible max TES on these layouts:

4T 4Lz // 4Lo 4T-3T 4S-2T 3A-1Lo-3S 3A - 140.75 TES

4T 4Lz // 4F 4T-3T 4S-2T 3A-1Lo-3F 3A - 142.65 TES

 

Edit: This TES would never be achievable, though, because I doubt there'll be as much freedom with +5 GOE as there's been with +3. 

[Yatagarasu]

16 hours ago, xeyra said:

Back in 2016 Lakernik gave an interview where he talked about the technical and artistic programs and what they might contain.

• Technical program would be like the short or free skate, with a certain number of elements
• Artistic would focus on presentation, with easier elements
• They'd be equal in length
• Medal for each program and possibly overall (sum of scores of the two programs?)

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016/08/16/196138174

 

[xeyra]

3 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

 

The artistic program could be so ripe for politicking. And likely based on 'taste'. Like Ice Dance. 

 

Either way, the goal is not to bridge any gap between 'artistic' and 'athletic'... it's to separate them. The overall medal is merely a possibility, not planned like the two separate program medals, so bridging the gap is not their intention going forward with the sport. 

[Yatagarasu]

Just now, xeyra said:

 

The artistic program would be so ripe for politicking. And likely based on 'taste'. Like Ice Dance. 

 

Exactly. Plus I don't see how they can even hope that IOC accepts this as part of the Olympics. ISU actually had to work really hard on ID rules, in order to have it as part of the sport. Anything like this just makes it ten times worse and I just don't see how it would ever remain, especially considering the "maybe" overall medal. All of this is handing all the control to the judges, in an even worse way than 6.0 was and basically, RIP sport. 

 

Unless, as someone (my apologies, forgot who) mentioned before, all of this is a giant smoke-screen so that the outrage goes here, instead of the BV changes which they actually want to push through. 

 

Also I cannot stop laughing at Theatre on Ice. Yeah, sure. That'll be an Olympic sport when pigs fly. 

[Xen]

4 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

The artistic program could be so ripe for politicking. And likely based on 'taste'. Like Ice Dance. 

 

Either way, the goal is not to bridge any gap between 'artistic' and 'athletic'... it's too separate them. The overall medal is merely a possibility, not as planned as the two separate program medals, so bridging the gap is not their intention going forward with the sport. 

In some ways, this seems so poetic...

Let's see, there is a technical program that still has PCS and TES scores, but since BV is in place, it will likely stay as an olympic sport. So we end up with a 4 minute single program, which I guess ISU wanted all along.

 

But then, we create an artistic program so the feds can politik all they want to their heart's content. And at some point the IOC gets fed up and kicks the artistic program to the curb (aka out of official sanctioned olympic competition), so it dies a sad sad death ...

 

Just now, Yatagarasu said:

Unless, as someone (my apologies, forgot who) mentioned before, all of this is a giant smoke-screen so that the outrage goes here, instead of the BV changes which they actually want to push through.

Yes, agree, that's where the real battle is, though if you think the ISU wanted more independent judges, they'd actually not lower the BV but actually find some way to keep the BV fairly consistent so politiking carries less weight....

[Yatagarasu]

6 minutes ago, Xen said:

Yes, agree, that's where the real battle is, though if you think the ISU wanted more independent judges, they'd actually not lower the BV but actually find some way to keep the BV fairly consistent so politiking carries less weight....

 

There actually is a solution to the issue - remove PE, IN from the PCS, and make stricter rules for the CO component if you end up keeping it, then up the factors for PCS. The programs can still be presented in the same way, but the most subjective scores would go. It is not ideal but it is one way to remove the subjectivity even further. 

 

Instead, they increase the subjective factor by ten. Mind-boggling. Which is why yes, I can actually see the BV of it being the crux of the matter and the rest just a smoke screen. 

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

There actually is a solution to the issue - remove PE, IN from the PCS, and make stricter rules for the CO component if you end up keeping it, then up the factors for PCS. The programs can still be presented in the same way, but the most subjective scores would go. It is not ideal but it is one way to remove the subjectivity even further. 

 

Instead, they increase the subjective factor by ten. Mind-boggling. Which is why yes, I can actually see the BV of it being the crux of the matter and the rest just a smoke screen. 

You know what would be curious to see?

1) Which programs have received a lot of 10's from the PE, IN and CO scores. Is there a common theme of which type of programs dominant on those scores, that would help check whether there is that much subjectivity, or if judges have diversified enough so rather than eliminate, we simply weigh these differently.

2) I know there is a trend of smaller fed skaters getting hammered on PCS scores. Where do they usually get hammered on? If not PE, IN and CO, but say TR or SS, is there a correlation between the lowering SS and TR to the lvs of the step sequence and the related GOEs?

 

Edit: it's odd that we're trying to quantify artistry...

[MrPudding]

 

Their predictions

[Xen]

3 minutes ago, MrPudding said:

 

Their predictions

...Can I laugh at some of them? Honestly, the only ones that kind of make sense are Phil Hersh's for the singles events....

[Yatagarasu]

11 minutes ago, Xen said:

You know what would be curious to see?

1) Which programs have received a lot of 10's from the PE, IN and CO scores. Is there a common theme of which type of programs dominant on those scores, that would help check whether there is that much subjectivity, or if judges have diversified enough so rather than eliminate, we simply weigh these differently.

2) I know there is a trend of smaller fed skaters getting hammered on PCS scores. Where do they usually get hammered on? If not PE, IN and CO, but say TR or SS, is there a correlation between the lowering SS and TR to the lvs of the step sequence and the related GOEs?

 

Edit: it's odd that we're trying to quantify artistry...

 

We'd have to go look but I do remember last season someone went through the PCS scores and the person who had the highest ones even with mistakes, was actually Javier Fernandez. He's probably the most overscored top skater in PCS that we have. 

As for the second, I'd bet it's on all of them. 

And we cannot, not really. I mean ID used to be pretty popular but that popularity went lower and lower and one of the principal reasons was the whole subjectivity in scoring. I am for example completely burned out on it; I still watch the top six but I have no attachment to any ID pairs because it's a recipe for heart-ache. To add this component to all the disciplines will just make me go lol no. I love skating but suffering through politicking to this extent in all events is simply not going to happen as a case of self-preservation.