Yuzuru Jumps Very High

[HRvF]

I have been fascinated by Hanyu-senshu's goal of landing a 4A and when I saw his (translated) comment about the 4A:

Quote

So the dilemma he describes is that the jump needs significant height during take off but it’s difficult to connect those to the necessary 4.5 rotations afterwards. He says it’s easier to rotate if you jump smaller, but then it’s likely going to be underrotated

(x)

 

I went digging into the question a bit and thought I'd share my thoughts here. I'm by nature an analytical type of person, so this post is a little "intense", but if this post/topic is not appropriate, please let me know and I'll change/delete it. My intention is just to discuss interesting aspects around the question and admire the hard work Hanyu-senshu has put in, in no way am I trying to be "critical" or "judgmental" in any way. (Because this post is very long, I put some of the content in "spoilers" so that it isn't a loooooong wall of text.)

 

Why am I thinking about this? 

Spoiler

I have been thinking about the mechanics of Hanyu-senshu's jumps a lot. I worked as a personal trainer and studied exercise long long ago. I'm no expert and it has been a long time since I've worked in that field, but I do have a natural interest and curiosity about exercise and bio-mechanics. I absolutely understand that me writing this post is similar to a school student walking into a post-graduate university class and starting to "lecture". The experts know so much more than me and I see the coaches using video analysis, so I know I'm waaay out of depth with this post, but I still find the topic interesting and I also want to do this to show how much work Hanyu-senshu has been putting into the 4A, which I believe is not appreciated enough!)

 

So these are my assumptions:
=> Jump "airtime" is related to the height and distance of a jump and therefore the amount of initial energy put into the jump along both horizontal as well as vertical vectors.
(You could, for example, do projectile motion along parabolic trajectory calculations using kinematic equations to see how vertical and horizontal movement affects airtime.)
=> The higher a skater can jump, the longer airtime he has for rotation (more energy into vertical vector).
=> The faster a skater enters the jump (more energy into horizontal vector), the further the jump and the longer the airtime.

=> Rotational energy is achieved through body positioning (for example, upper body movement and position) as well as the entry curve of the jump.
(Although I think height is the more important vector of the two.)

 

Hanyu-senshu is an athlete who can JUMP REALLY HIGH!

Spoiler

I have had a theory for a while that Hanyu-senshu has specifically developed a technique of jumping that maximizes vertical vector energy input over horizontal (relative to other skaters) and that is also why he is able to do complex transitions into a jump, jump from slow speed and his strengths are jumps for which the vertical vector CAN be optimized (like axel).

 

The second part of my theory (but my knowledge about skating is very limited) is that because of his tall, light, slim body frame (which generally helps for jumping in terms of power to weight ratio and fast rotation), means he is able to jump higher, so it makes sense that he would optimize that aspect of his jumps.

 

But I was also wondering if his body shape contributes to sometimes a difficult to control axis during jumping? For example, I think he is about 5 to 7 cm taller than Nathan which would place his center of gravity higher above the ice and then more difficult to keep the angle of the axis stable? (It seems to me his higher center of gravity can lead to his "tilt" to "fall over" while flying through the air, but perhaps I'm not seeing it right). The entry-curve of a jump also contributes to rotational energy, so perhaps that also plays a role. (For example, if the entry curve is optimal, then more force can be allocated for upwards vector energy because more rotational energy input has already been added before take-off.)

 

I think, unique to his jumping style, he maximized his jumps in terms if height over distance (relative to other skaters). I think this can be seen with the vertical jump arcs we see sometimes where his parabola is arched upward more than other skaters.

 

If my assumptions are correct it means that;

1) using higher speed into a jump is not an option for him,  (I think that higher entry speed also to tends to throw off the axis of a jump?)

2) relative to other skaters, Hanyu-senshu may be putting extra effort into vertical vector energy at and before take-off => this relates to his statement: "He says it’s easier to rotate if you jump smaller, but then it’s likely going to be underrotated."

 

I think the "trick" is all about a balance between putting in energy into the vertical vector for a higher jump versus putting energy into rotation. A higher jump gives more airtime but, in contrast, more energy to rotation increases rotation speed. With this in mind I looked at video footage of his 4A attempts and tried to get an idea of how he jumps and what his airtime and rotation speed is.

 

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Spoiler

My "analysis" and "stats" are inherently VERY flawed (I just have an old computer and poor internet). Proper equipment should be used to really look at stuff like this. I marked take-off and landing as "leaving the ice" and "landing on the ice", but this depends on which frames were captured and could be marked about 0.1 seconds this way or that. Different camera angles can mean that different time points appear to be the one to be marked. Even 0.05 seconds makes a huge difference to the calculations, so take every stat and calculation I made with a huge pinch of salt!

 

Hanyu-senshu's 4As at Torino:

Spoiler

I looked at footage of 3 different 4A attempts;

A [4.25 estimated rotations],

B [4.1 estimated rotations],

C [4.25 estimated rotations]),

then marked "take-off" and "landing" and I also marked when the first 0.5 turn was completed.

 

In other words, I looked at total airtime, but also divided total airtime into two phases.

Phase 1 = first 0.5 rotation or "initial" rotation and,

Phase 2 = remainder of airtime.

 

The reason why I looked at it in two phases is because I thought that during the first 0.5 rotation, different forces and actions take place compared to the rest of the rotations.
I assumed that initially the rotation speed would be different because:
 - some energy is put into the upwards vector
 - the arms are not yet completely pulled in to to increase speed (body position not yet optimal for fast rotation)

 

Here is a summary table:

 

Indeed the following numbers came out:
 Phase 1: duration between 0.098 and 0.116 seconds, rotation speed between 4.949 to 5.102 R/second or 260 to 306 R/minute 
 Phase 2: duration between 0.676 and 0.712 seconds, rotation speed between 5.276 to 5.342 R/second or 317 to 321 R/minute 
 For total airtime: duration between 0.774 and 0.818 seconds, rotation speed between 5.199 to 5.301 R/second or 312 to 318 R/minute 
 (Total airtime = phase 1 + phase 2)

 

 

So although these numbers are questionable due to poor technology used to look at it, it is possible to theorize that rotation during phase 1 (first 0.5 rotations) are slower than during phase 2 (rest of rotations) and that Hanyu-senshu is able to dedicate about 0.1 seconds to phase 1, about 0.7 seconds to phase 2 and a total of 0.8 seconds for total airtime. (I think jump C was the best of the three attempts).
 
I was wondering if any special tactics could be used to increase the potential success of the 4A. As mentioned before, I believe increasing the entry-speed to increase airtime is not an option. I also don't think faster rotation during phase 1 would work, because the effort during phase 1 is needed to make sure the jump is high enough for good airtime (the cutoff point (in terms of time or rotations) for phase 1 might be shifted though depending on where/how much effort is needed to achieve height). Therefore, a possible place left for optimization is to increase the rotation speed during phase 2.
 
 Looking at the numbers, one could speculate in the following:
 If a total airtime of 0.8 seconds can be achieved and of that 0.1 seconds is used for phase 1 and 0.7 seconds is used for phase 2, 4.5 rotations can be achieved the following way:
 Phase 1 (0.1 seconds and 0.5 rotations): 5.000 R/sec    300 R/min
 Phase 2 (0.7 seconds and 4.0 rotations): 5.714    R/sec     343 R/min
 
 The highest R/min achieved (with my flawed and rough data) during phase 2 was 321 R/min (5.342 R/sec) (Jump C), the rest of the parameters has been achieved.

 

Rotation speed speculations:

Spoiler

Would it be possible to increase the rotation speed during phase 2 from 5.342 R/sec to 5.714 R/sec?
 (QUICK NOTE: I think according to the rules, 4.25 rotation is adequately rotated (as achieved in jump A and C), but it looks for my untrained eye that the angle of landing that is very difficult as the direction of movement is wrong. So it's also important to keep in mind the curved entry-path which continues during the landing. The curved entry-path also contributes towards rotational energy. So I guess it makes more sense to try to aim for the full 4.5 rotations instead of trying to land the 4.25? Also having a bit of extra time for the slow-down and "checkout" is probably a good thing with these high rotation speeds? My limited skating knowledge fails me here.)

 

So I tried to get some information about typical rotation speeds to get an idea how possible 340 R/min would be and came across the Wired article ("Figure Skating's Quintuple Jump: Maybe Impossible, Definitely Bonkers") (source) which stated that a quad needs 340 R/min and peak R/min is typically 80 to 100 higher. So I think the way I measure it must be way different to how they measured it. (I'll show some related calculations next.) The Wired article states that a quint would need 400 to 500 R/min and the highest they (James Richards, kinesiologist) saw in lab was 430 to 440. The highest rotation speed for Chen was 440.

 

440 R/min (7.333 R/sec) for 4 revolutions would mean an airtime of 0.545 seconds which is very different from what I've found (quad data below). I think either 1) my flawed method didn't get values close to the real values at all 2) they used a different criteria for airtime 3) they only measured spinning in a harness in the lab and not in practice on the ice. 

 

A scientific American article in 2014 (source) said that at that time quad airtime was between 0.65 and 0.70 seconds and to fit an extra rotation (for a quint) would require about 0.72 to 0.75 seconds. Off course depending how they measured airtime compared to how I did it, Hanyu-senshu is already there!

 

So either way, I couldn't really find information that could tell me if Hanyu-senshu could conceivably spin faster (up to 340 R/min according to how they measured it?). (Interestingly though, it seems there's a theory that athletes CAN physically spin faster, but have sort of a psychological "brake" on rotation speed. Here is a quote from the Wired article about that: "Weirdly, Ridge found that test subjects in gloves as light as six ounces tended to over-rotate on their first few jumps - suggesting that the weight does, in fact, help increase spin. But the skaters quickly adapted to the presence of the weights, and after a few more tries had returned to their normal spin rates."

 

And another quote from Smithsonian magazine (source): "Surprisingly, Richards' group found that rotating quickly enough was more a mental than a physical challenge for skaters. 'There appears to be a speed limit that's internally wired," he says, though this maximum speed varies from person to person. It can take weeks or months for an athlete to train themselves to spin faster than their natural comfort zone." <= I don't know how true this is, but if true, it also shows how much work Hanyu-senshu has already put in because he seems to be spinning faster in the 4A attempts than for quads! (quad data below)

 

 

I want to also add though that I think it is frightening to think about spinning so fast (and jumping so high) and then needing to land on ice! So many forces on impact, I think it's crazy (and scary) what elite skaters can do. And sometimes I think it would be better if Hanyu-senshu didn't pursue the 4A dream and rather become a life-long artist on ice, creating his own artwork in ice shows, instead of risking injury in competitive skating. But whatever he decides, I know his fans will support him 100%) 

 

 But anyway, I then had a look at the rotation speeds of Hanyu-senshu's 3As:

Spoiler

From this table:

 

 Phase 1: average duration 0.123 seconds, average rotation speed 4.164 R/second or 255 R/minute 
 Phase 2: average duration 0.598 seconds, average rotation speed 5.048 R/second or 303 R/minute 
 For total airtime: average duration 0.721 seconds, average rotation speed 4.874 R/second or 292 R/minute 
 (Total airtime = phase 1 + phase 2)

 

(I know one of the big flaws of my "methodology" is that I don't accurately measure rotations, I'm very roughly "ball parking" it. This can off course change the data a lot.)

A few rotation speeds were over 310 R/min and one of the 3As were even 348R/min during phase 2. So I decided to compare this jump with a jump that had a low rotation speed.

 Here is a comparison of the jumps:
                                                      PHASE 1                       PHASE 2                       TOT AIRTIME
 Jump 1 (2018 GPHelsi FS):    0.142s (211 R/m)        0.517s (348 R/m)        0.659s (319 R/m)    
 Jump 2 (2019 WC SP):            0.136s (221 R/m)        0.629s (286 R/m)        0.765s (275 R/m)

 

The 2018 FS jump was the second jump in combination (4T 3A) it is therefore expected that this 3A would be lower and of shorter duration than usual and that is why the rotation speed is so high (to complete all rotations in less time). The landing was tricky, but I'm not sure if it is because of underrotation. To my untrained eye it almost looks rather like the high rotation coming out of the jump was what forced the landing into a tighter circle?

 

The 2019 WC SP jump looks perfect for me and there was ample time to break and exit from rotation (checkout). Total airtime was of long duration and this jump was probably very high.

 

 

 

(In the static graphics I marked the approximate rotation phases but ignored the entry and exit curve because the distance of the jump and thus the curve path in relation to the camera movement is difficult to estimate on the photos. So it's again a rough estimate.)
 
 From the comparison between these two jumps I think the conundrum is once again clear. Jumping high and long airtime can be done. Fast rotation can be done. But both together is much more tricky. (For example, I estimate for Hanyu-senshu, a 4.5 Axel would need about 0.8 seconds airtime and about 340 R/min (in the way I measured) for phase 2 if 0.1 seconds is used to achieve the first 0.5 rotations at about 300 R/m.)

 

 

Comparing his 3A stats with the 4A attempts this shows how much training and work Hanyu-senshu has been putting into this!

 3A average duration 0.721 seconds => 4A duration 0.818 seconds
 3A average rotation speed 4.870 R/second (292 R/minute) => 4A rotation speed 5.301 R/second (318 R/minute)
 
 And I also did a VERY rough "eyeball" estimate of the height of the jump (the problem is estimating where the ice is under the jump). But a VERY rough estimate gave me this:
 3A (NHK SP 2019): 0.758 m
 4A (attempt at GPF practice 2019): 0.941 m !!! 

 

 

 

My conclusion is that Hanyu-senshu has been training for the 4A VERY VERY hard and the 4A attempts we saw were ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE jumps! (We can also see this from how much muscle he has gained! I also suspect that his 4A training has been affecting his other jumps. For me this makes sense because until he has his perfect balance of technique for the 4A and have it "locked in", thus experimenting with different speeds, curves, positions etc, it might affect how he does other jumps as well. But also maybe not I'm just speculating hehe) 

 

But what I think IS true is that he is jumping higher, is achieving longer airtime and is rotating faster.

 

In terms of how he might reach 4.5 instead of 4.25 rotations, I think...

* he is already jumping very high
* airtime is already long
* perhaps rotating faster after the initial phase (to get height first) is a possible approach to reach more rotations (With this I don't mean a "delayed" rotation, but rather perhaps a slightly different arm movement which first help pull the body UP then to ROTATE. Yes, I know, we are talking about tiny tiny fractions of seconds!)

 

With this in mind, I decided to look at his rotation speed when doing quads (to get an idea what rotation speed he gets there) and compare it with another skater (I picked Nathan since he is his main rival at the moment, although Boyang might also be a good comparison?

 

Anything to learn from Quad Jumps?

Spoiler

With my flawed methodology (take with a load of salt), it looks like Nathan has less airtime and thus faster rotation speed.

 

Hanyu-senshu quad (I only looked at averages of two Lz and one L because I didn't have time to look at more, perhaps I can update with more stats later):
Duration: 0.820
R/sec: 4.880
R/min: 293

 

Nathan quad (average of seven Lz jumps):
Duration: 0.772
R/sec: 5.183
R/min: 311

 

From this table:

 

This difference sparked my curiosity, so I thought to compare a Nathan Lz with a Hanyu-senshu Lz. In the following graphic you can see Nathan rotating very slightly faster and landing earlier (about 0.05 seconds difference it seems). My theory is that Hanyu-senshu has a unique arm movement in the beginning of a jump, pulling the arms in a little later and using the arms in the beginning to help get vertical vector energy (it looks that way from the graphic).

 

[When marking the rotation phases, I ignored the effect of the entry and exit curve - it works out anyway I think because it's a Lz with opposing curves (it "comes back")]

 

 

 

So this brought me back to my initial thought that perhaps the key for Hanyu-senshu lies in that first phase of the 4A (how to balance rotational energy and vertical energy input). We've seen him "bulking up" so extraordinarily and all those muscles help with pulling the arms in during rotation (especially deltoids and pecs), but could it also help for the upwards vector?

 

 

Speculations about arm movements:

Spoiler

 

If you look at sprinters, they use their arms to help propel them forward.

 

(PM me if you know source of this image pls)

 

Could there be an optimal arm movement for the 4A? Here is once again where limited skating knowledge will fail me. I was wondering if a slightly different arm arc upwards and position might not be helpful (off course these happen at fractions of seconds and tiny changes can make big differences). Now I know it's very tricky because even a slight positional change can have a big influence on axis position so I can understand that one should not just mess around with it too much. And I know that massive forces pull the arms out during rotation so there's that to also consider (if I'm not mistaken the deltoids + pecs primarily pull the arms in during rotation).

 

The reason why I was wondering about this was because I thought perhaps extra force generation could be gained by using different muscle groups in different proportions (Once the deltoids have been contracted (shortened) for upwards pulling, they may not have much space left for rotational action. Perhaps other muscles can help rotation?). For example, if the Latissimus muscle is used to pull in and up (in sync with other muscles - this is tricky because latts usually pull down. hehe difficult to explain without demonstrating), perhaps that can give extra force (leaving the deltoids and pecs to help with the upward)?

 

For example, I think if I was skating I would experiment with creating rotational force rather by using the opposite side (left?) latts to "pull" around instead of "pushing" (deltoids + pecs) with the right shoulder. But I think this would throw me off axis and would put extra rotational forces on the back, so it might not work. (Have been jumping around on the floor like an idiot hahaha.)

 

[Although I think athletes at this level are already optimizing to a great degree with muscles working in sync very well, there might not be room for change there. Also, shoulder joints are of the most tricky joints in the body with a lot of different muscles working together in different ways. I think it might be risky to upset any stable balance already achieved there and an athlete wouldn't want to spoil good jumping technique for other jumps and Hanyu-senshu has such a beautiful and relaxed upper body during jumping (thus correctly not pulling shoulders to ears as most people naturally do with shoulder adduction).]

 

 

SAFETY NOTE: Shoulder muscles are tricky and not something to mess with irresponsibly! Specialized exercises should always be done under supervision of qualified professionals. To give an idea of how tricky the shoulder joint is, here is an article you can refer to, advising against rotator cuff exercises (where rotator cuff exercises are very popular in gyms). [article]

 

(PM me if you know source of this image pls)

(PM me if you know source of this image pls)

 

 

 

So, anyways, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts. Perhaps people with more skating knowledge than me (which is off course 99.99% of other people around the Planet) could correct me where I was thinking wrong or add some information. But I also wanted to highlight that Hanyu-senshu is an amazing athletic jumper (it seems he jumps so high and has so much airtime he can get away with lower rotation speed relative to other skaters! but he has also been increasing his rotation speed) and that he has put in so much work into the 4A and it might not be appreciated enough... to my liking hehehe.

 

I think he has the ability to land a 4A. I actually also believe he has the ability to land a quint. The question is, is it worth the injury risk?

 

 

 

 

[Crow]

You have put a lot of time and effort into your musings! I have a couple general thoughts in the matter and they are rather simple reflections, I hope you are not upset by that, I did read your whole post.
What I was thinking while reading is that I think the problem is in controlling the landing, I think spinning faster is not the issue but the fact is the faster you spin the harder it is to control the landing ( unless I understand that wrong).
What we have heard Yuzu say in the past is that the part he is missing for being able to land it is the visuals of how the jump would look, and Im not sure how this would exactly affect his current jump, is it the position of the arms while on air or the arms on landing? Or the position of the body through out? I've no idea.

And yes he has put a lot of effort into this, that we know. I think if its worth the risk or not is something he decided already. I think he said he is trying to be as careful as he can but still going for it and I can understand that, he achieved so much and he has this unique goal that he would love to see accomplished and to him it is worth more than protecting his body to the point of not attempting this risky trials.

On the quint jumps I remember someone was talking about how Yuzu could more "easily" go for a 5 jump cause of his high jumps than the 4A, I think it was the Japanese Federation vice president? But Im actually not sure at all. What I know is that Yuzu is much more interested in the 4A  Either cause its is his favorite jump or his stronger jump according to him, or what he feels more comfortable exploring or maybe cause he thinks he is in a unique position regarding the 4A, that others wont be able to easily challange and that in contrast the quint jump is more "reachable". Who knows! Not me.

[SitTwizzle]

Waw, what a work!

After all there is something other than Maths, such as Physics and Histology. ;-)

Thank you very much, I am so little qualified to appreciate the validity of your work (though understanding well the problem of measurements; i-Scope welcome) but what is sure is, it opens many gates, where Yuzuru Hanyu and Ghislain Briand must already be working quite a lot.

[rockstaryuzu]

I don't have time to read this all right now but it looks very interesting! 

 

As far as height goes, you might be interested in what Roman Sadovsky said about jumping quads when you're tall ( at 6' 1" , Roman's probably one of the tallest men doing quads in FS these days). He said that the taller you get, the more perfect your technique has to be, because if a jump goes wrong in mid air, it becomes nearly impossible to save the landing. Basically, you have less of a margin for landing off-balance, because if you do, the forces on your legs and feet are harder to overcome because of the length of the limbs. 

 

Yuzu's 5'8", so he's tallish for a figure skater, but his whole body is narrow so he probably has a better sense of balance, and that probably helps him. So I wonder if his height is an advantage or a disadvantage.

[Henni147]

9 hours ago, HRvF said:

{ whole post }

 

Thank you so much for your hard work! I'm not an expert of figure skating either, but I agree with many things you mentioned. Regarding the rotation speed I'd like to add one aspect:

 

Quote

Source: https://figureskatingmargotzenaadeline.weebly.com/moment-of-inertia.html

 

In figure skating, rotational inertia takes place as a skater is spinning or jumping because in order to perform the required amount of revolutions spinning on the ice or in the air, they must decrease their moment of inertia. This can be acquired by pulling their arms in closer so they reduce their average radius, or average distance to the center. Since the moment of inertia acts as a form of resistance, a skater can increase their angular velocity (rpm) by reducing their average radius to decrease their moment of inertia. This means that when skaters have their arms out, they have a larger average radius, resulting in a larger moment of inertia and a slower angular velocity. When skaters pull their arms in, they have a smaller average radius, resulting in less rotational inertia and an ability to gain more angular velocity.

 

I've noticed that Nathan and Boyang pull their arms very tight and cross them in front of their chest, while Yuzu's elbows stick out to the side a bit, so his radius and momentum of inertia is a bit bigger and he needs more force to increase his rotation speed (I don't know how big that effect is, though).

 

Some time ago I shared a paper about the biomechanics of the triple Axel in the general chat. That could be a very interesting read for you:

 

 

By the way: I can 100% understand your worries regarding analytical posts like this. When I was new to figure skating myself in 2017, I wrote down my thoughts about Yuzu's Lutz and the result was that many fans blocked me on Twitter. It shattered my fan heart into pieces, but I loved Yuzu and his skating too much to give up on him and the community. Today - honestly - I don't regret it. I think that an analysis like yours is very valuable. It might turn out be wrong, but you never know. It might be the key to success for Yuzu (if he's truly lurking here). With a different viewpoint you might see things that athletes, coaches and experts don't see (in a positive way). People wanted to bury Galileo Galilei for his theory of a heliocentric system, but in the end it turned out to be true, aye? 

[HRvF]

5 hours ago, Crow said:

I hope you are not upset by that

Thank you for reading it and thank you for your reply which I think is very thoughtful and I do agree with you as well.

 

5 hours ago, Crow said:

I think the problem is in controlling the landing, I think spinning faster is not the issue but the fact is the faster you spin the harder it is to control the landing ( unless I understand that wrong).

 

I think you are right that that is a very important factor. When I compared the 3A of 2018GPF_FS (in combination) to 2019WC_SP it also looked to me that the high rotation speed from the 2018 3A was what made the landing difficult. (In other words,  I think possibly that for higher rotation speed, more time is needed for a good "checkout", never-mind all the crazy forces on landing which I still find frightening AND the fact that all this happens in split seconds!) I made two video snippets of those jumps, but don't know how to attach in comments, so once I figure that out, I'll add it here, then it's easy to see the comparison.

 

6 hours ago, Crow said:

I think he said he is trying to be as careful as he can but still going for it and I can understand that, he achieved so much and he has this unique goal that he would love to see accomplished and to him it is worth more than protecting his body to the point of not attempting this risky trials.

 

Well, I will support him with any decision he makes  (I think he has proven to a very good decision-maker)

 

6 hours ago, Crow said:

Either cause its is his favorite jump or his stronger jump according to him, or what he feels more comfortable exploring or maybe cause he thinks he is in a unique position regarding the 4A, that others wont be able to easily challange and that in contrast the quint jump is more "reachable". Who knows! Not me.

 

hehe, indeed! But I have to say, even though he is focused on 4A and not on quint, I would really love it if he could do it even if only to stick it a little bit to the "nay-sayers". (I'm sorry, I'm a little evil  BUT - he knows what's best, so I support him in his decisions.

 

[HRvF]

4 hours ago, SitTwizzle said:

Waw, what a work!

Thank you for reading! I think it is because I tend to get obsessive about things 

 

I'm just like a hobbyist looking from afar (wish I had access to Ice Scope!) so just wanted to share some speculations and musings. (It's just because I find these things interesting and I think Yuzu is an amazing athlete. I really do think his athletic ability is under appreciated.) 

 

Yuzu has a great (the best in the world?) coaching team and he himself is also very intelligent and responsible so I think the 4A mission is in good hands.  

[HRvF]

53 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

He said that the taller you get, the more perfect your technique has to be, because if a jump goes wrong in mid air, it becomes nearly impossible to save the landing. Basically, you have less of a margin for landing off-balance, because if you do, the forces on your legs and feet are harder to overcome because of the length of the limbs. 

 

Yuzu's 5'8", so he's tallish for a figure skater, but his whole body is narrow so he probably has a better sense of balance, and that probably helps him. So I wonder if his height is an advantage or a disadvantage.

 

That is very interesting! I was wondering about that.

 

[SitTwizzle]

Just a little out-of topic historical remark.

Spoiler

"People wanted to bury Galileo Galilei for his theory of a heliocentric system, but in the end it turned out to be true, aye?" Not exactly, for what I remember. He discovered nothing. He adopted Copernicus theories (though not understanding everything) earlier than other professors (who were quite in their comfort zone). Copernicus was the expert for the Vth Latran Council, which permitted the adoption of Gregorian calendar in 1582, still in use. The problem with Galileo Galilei were not his teachings (they were so welcome that much was forgiven to him for so many years), but his keeping insulting his peers. These complained, he received gradual remonstrances, ending in a trial where a tribunal judged, not on scientific grounds but on grounds of defamation on request of the victims, that he had to sign a retractation (with four elements, two of which wrong, as two of his own conceptions of it were wrong too, funnily) and to tell a daily prayer during seven years, which he managed to get told by his natural daughter whom he had never deigned to aknowledge before (or take notice of her) and who was a nun. An man of advanced knowledge but bad character and manners. Later he was instrumentalized, and is still so.

 

[HRvF]

49 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

I've noticed that Nathan and Boyang pull their arms very tight and cross them in front of their chest, while Yuzu's elbows stick out to the side a bit, so his radius and momentum of inertia is a bit bigger and he needs more force to increase his rotation speed (I don't know how big that effect is, though).

 

Yes, whenever I saw Yuzu jumping, I always thought, gosh he puts "brakes on" for his jumps, surely he can easily do an extra rotation   if he stops putting on the "brakes"!

But, on the other hand, so many people (commentators for example) has said that his jumps are so pretty because of his relaxed upper body compared to other skaters. Perhaps, like @Crow mentioned, he CAN spin faster easily, but doesn't do it for other reasons (like difficult landing).

 

58 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

Some time ago I shared a paper about the biomechanics of the triple Axel in the general chat. That could be a very interesting read for you

 

This is A M A Z I N G ! ! Thank you for sharing!

 

59 minutes ago, Henni147 said:

By the way: I can 100% understand your worries regarding analytical posts like this.

 

Thank you very much for your beautiful words and encouragement.  I have to say, I was very nervous to post this. You understand exactly. (Sorry to hear about your own negative experience though  )  I didn't want to seem like I'm trying to be a smart alec, but when I saw the quote about "He says it’s easier to rotate if you jump smaller, but then it’s likely going to be underrotated" I just couldn't stop thinking about it 

[HRvF]

21 minutes ago, SitTwizzle said:

Just a little out-of topic historical remark.

  Hide contents

"People wanted to bury Galileo Galilei for his theory of a heliocentric system, but in the end it turned out to be true, aye?" Not exactly, for what I remember. He discovered nothing. He adopted Copernicus theories (though not understanding everything) earlier than other professors (who were quite in their comfort zone). Copernicus was the expert for the Vth Latran Council, which permitted the adoption of Gregorian calendar in 1582, still in use. The problem with Galileo Galilei were not his teachings (they were so welcome that much was forgiven to him for so many years), but his keeping insulting his peers. These complained, he received gradual remonstrances, ending in a trial where a tribunal judged, not on scientific grounds but on grounds of defamation on request of the victims, that he had to sign a retractation (with four elements, two of which wrong, as two of his own conceptions of it were wrong too, funnily) and to tell a daily prayer during seven years, which he managed to get told by his natural daughter whom he had never deigned to aknowledge before (or take notice of her) and who was a nun. An man of advanced knowledge but bad character and manners. Later he was instrumentalized, and is still so.

 

hahaha - that sounds crazy! Sometimes I really wish we could get more historical information like this, instead of just bland dates and events, the real people behind the events!

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, SitTwizzle said:

Just a little out-of topic historical remark.

  Hide contents

"People wanted to bury Galileo Galilei for his theory of a heliocentric system, but in the end it turned out to be true, aye?" Not exactly, for what I remember. He discovered nothing. He adopted Copernicus theories (though not understanding everything) earlier than other professors (who were quite in their comfort zone). Copernicus was the expert for the Vth Latran Council, which permitted the adoption of Gregorian calendar in 1582, still in use. The problem with Galileo Galilei were not his teachings (they were so welcome that much was forgiven to him for so many years), but his keeping insulting his peers. These complained, he received gradual remonstrances, ending in a trial where a tribunal judged, not on scientific grounds but on grounds of defamation on request of the victims, that he had to sign a retractation (with four elements, two of which wrong, as two of his own conceptions of it were wrong too, funnily) and to tell a daily prayer during seven years, which he managed to get told by his natural daughter whom he had never deigned to aknowledge before (or take notice of her) and who was a nun. An man of advanced knowledge but bad character and manners. Later he was instrumentalized, and is still so.

 

Spoiler

All that might be true, but Galileo was most definitely ex-communicated (i.e. barred from receiving the Eucharist) 1633 by the Catholic Church (in fact, by the Inquisition) for insisting that the earth went around the sun, and not the other way. He wasn't even allowed to be buried on church grounds in the consecrated cemetary reserved for the baptized, when he died. It wasn't until 1991 that Pope John Paul II issued an apology and a recognition that the Church had erred in condemning him. 

 

It may be entirely true that his peers were the cause of him being dragged before the Inquisition to explain himself, however. 

 

Anyway, the poor man has not been allowed to rest in peace - his remains have been moved several times over the centuries and what's left of his right hand (which fell out of his coffin during one of these moves) is currently on display in a bell jar at the Galileo Museum in Florence, Italy. Gave me quite a shock when I stumbled across it. Poor Galileo did not deserve that. 

 

[SitTwizzle]

39 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

  Hide contents

All that might be true, but Galileo was most definitely ex-communicated (i.e. barred from receiving the Eucharist) 1633 by the Catholic Church (in fact, by the Inquisition) for insisting that the earth went around the sun, and not the other way. He wasn't even allowed to be buried on church grounds in the consecrated cemetary reserved for the baptized, when he died. It wasn't until 1991 that Pope John Paul II issued an apology and a recognition that the Church had erred in condemning him. 

 

It may be entirely true that his peers were the cause of him being dragged before the Inquisition to explain himself, however. 

 

Anyway, the poor man has not been allowed to rest in peace - his remains have been moved several times over the centuries and what's left of his right hand (which fell out of his coffin during one of these moves) is currently on display in a bell jar at the Galileo Museum in Florence, Italy. Gave me quite a shock when I stumbled across it. Poor Galileo did not deserve that. 

 

Spoiler

To be true, I rather simplified on the kind side... I don't think it is the place for a list of his errors — even frauds, and the different theories then in concurrence. I just cannot let say he was excommunicated : he could not have continued to receive his ecclesiastical benefits (I don't know the English word); and he died with a full indulgency and a special blessing from the Pope. As to John Paul II's apologies... Sigh... And for the hand, I must say we Catholics have "strange manners" with the corpses of the saints; some are left whole, others literally cut into pieces and sent all over the world. But not only saints, many known people had this part in a place, that part in another. Just "my so dear Chopin" has his corpse in the Père Lachaise cemetery, in Paris, while his heart was sent to Poland. He seems to have sincerely converted on his death bed, but I am sure nobody thought he might be declared a saint some day; so it was just a famous, beloved person everybody wanted a part of. Probably the same with Galileo.

 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, SitTwizzle said:

  Hide contents

To be true, I rather simplified on the kind side... I don't think it is the place for a list of his errors — even frauds, and the different theories then in concurrence. I just cannot let say he was excommunicated : he could not have continued to receive his ecclesiastical benefits (I don't know the English word); and he died with a full indulgency and a special blessing from the Pope. As to John Paul II's apologies... Sigh... And for the hand, I must say we Catholics have "strange manners" with the corpses of the saints; some are left whole, others literally cut into pieces and sent all over the world. But not only saints, many known people had this part in a place, that part in another. Just "my so dear Chopin" has his corpse in the Père Lachaise cemetery, in Paris, while his heart was sent to Poland. He seems to have sincerely converted on his death bed, but I am sure nobody thought he might be declared a saint some day; so it was just a famous, beloved person everybody wanted a part of. Probably the same with Galileo.

 

Spoiler

If Galileo died within the graces of the Church, he would have been buried within church grounds as was the custom at the time, but he was not. I have no doubt the man had his faults, but it is a matter of recorded history that the Church did excommunicate him over heliocentrism. 

 

As for his hand, the history reported in the Galileo Museum, which anyone can go and read, is simply that it was an accidental happening. Why they didn't just tuck the hand back in and pretend it never fell out in the first place, I don't know; but I do know that the reason it is on display is because proponents of the Enlightenment in the 18th century sought it out and created the display . For what purpose, who knows, but I doubt it was out of any discovery that Galileo was somehow become a saint. 

 

Incidentally, it is a very small hand for a man's. I suspect Galileo was quite short. 

 

[Umebachi]

16 hours ago, HRvF said:

I have been fascinated by Hanyu-senshu's goal of landing a 4A and when I saw his (translated) comment about the 4A:

(x)

 

I went digging into the question a bit and thought I'd share my thoughts here. I'm by nature an analytical type of person, so this post is a little "intense", but if this post/topic is not appropriate, please let me know and I'll change/delete it. My intention is just to discuss interesting aspects around the question and admire the hard work Hanyu-senshu has put in, in no way am I trying to be "critical" or "judgmental" in any way. (Because this post is very long, I put some of the content in "spoilers" so that it isn't a loooooong wall of text.)

 

I think he has the ability to land a 4A. I actually also believe he has the ability to land a quint. The question is, is it worth the injury risk?

 

 

Thank you for your fantastic obsession!  This is very-stimulating and enriching.   I love detailed technical discussions and happy to learn by reading up on science.   

 

If only he could find a way to speed up his spin a smidgen without losing height!  The pull-in motion of the arms will be critical but even a very subtle and slight change can throw the body off axis and with so much angular momentum the tiniest deviation will amplify rapidly.    Also, his slightly slower entry speed with wider elbow angle and relaxed shoulders result in an aesthetically pleasing motion.  Perhaps this is one of the reasons why his entry into jumps look so much more dynamic and organic than Nathan's entry - which is smaller and more efficient but mechanical (we are not even talking about the landing!). 

 

To jump the 4A  Yuzu may need to go all out for that efficient spinning motion from the start of the jump.  He will probably need greater ab strength to keep the body in that tight but resilient coil!