General Yuzuru Chat

[rockstaryuzu]

12 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

 ^^ Oh, you mean European folk music? 

 

Well, Rika Hongo did Riverdance and she was universally praised for it, and Junhwan did the Gypsy Dance and everybody liked it.

Try not to tell the Irish that their musical heart and soul is "European folk music" (said the half-Irish person)... it's so, so much more than that.☺️🇮🇪

[rockstaryuzu]

2 hours ago, Anzi said:

I think the point is not whether you choose the music from your own cultural background, but rather whether you personally have certain connection with the music per se. The music resonates with you in certain way, and in turn you bring out that affection and understanding. When you have that feeling you would be released from the mechanic enactment abided to principal, internalizing the rhythm and melody in your body movement. The music as outside thing becomes one with you. 

 

That's the idea of Zen philosophy.

This is a pretty good way to put it. I think skaters who never get any say in choosing their own music lack this aspect, most of the time. 

[rockstaryuzu]

12 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

It’s figure skating, not Irish dancing or ballet or martial arts or stage musicals or any other sort of musical reference that’s been used over the years on ice.  It will probably reference the original to a greater or lesser extent, but it’s quite a different sort of movement, faster, with different technical requirements.  It’s one of the reasons that criticism of skaters for not being ‘balletic’ annoys me.

When people say a skater's not 'balletic', don't they usually mean that the skater has terrible body lines though? Like, their arms are stiff or their posture's bad or something?

[4Nessie]

5 hours ago, sweetwater said:

I think to understand/respect the music's cultural background, to incorporate something typical of the culture into the choreography/costume, and to express the music well with your skating are three different things especially when you are a singles skater. For example, sometimes skaters move as if they are holding his partner when skating to tango but that is not essential to express the music itself nor showing respect to the music, isn't it? (If he is portraying someone dancing with his partner or someone imagining that he is dancing with his partner, such movement might be essential to convey the story)

Also, you don't need to be born and raised in the specific culture to express the music. I'm Japanese, so if I take programs using Japanese music for example, Shae-Lynn understood the story of Seimei and did a great job conveying it through her choreography incorporating many movements inspired by Japanese culture. Tom Dickson did the same when he choreographed Sayuri for Satoko. 

Michal Březina's Kodou SP choreographed by Pasquale Camerlengo was also really cool. The movements in the program didn't specifically look Japanese, but they suited the music very well. Especially the Stsq was so fun to watch and it expressed the exciting music very well.

If the skater is good and has a strong reason to skate to the music and a good choreographer to work with, he/she can pull off anything. I think skater's skills and motivation is more important than his/her cultural/ethnic background.

 

Michal's Kodo is great and I've loved it back in 2011 as well. Tomas Verner had also a great asian program in 2008. As I said, many skaters worldwide do music from different culture. It is not necessary a bad thing. They may have a nice choreography and convey some typical movements. There is just often something missing, that cannot be expressed by movement, but only by some inner emotions or something like that. But I am an emotional person and when I don't see emotions in skating programs, they lack something important for me. So again, it can be my personal problem with such programs.

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, 4Nessie said:

There is just often something missing, that cannot be expressed by movement, but only by some inner emotions or something like that. But I am an emotional person and when I don't see emotions in skating programs, they lack something important for me. So again, it can be my personal problem with such programs.

No, you're not the only one who thinks like that. I think that having this type of expression of the music, where skater is conveying meaning and not just going through the motions, is actually a very important part of the sport. If it was only about the motions and the skills, why have music at all? Why not be like gymnastics, where the routines are traditionally performed without music? 

 

But skating does have music, and therefore a skater's ability to understand, express, and convey the meaning of the music matters greatly.  Thus it becomes important for skaters to choose music that works for them... something Yuzu is very good at...

 

 

 

slightly OT by-the-way here: I think it would be absolutely wonderful to see a males singles skater (not necessarily Zu but anyone who's up for it) do a proper Bhangra routine on skates. It would be technically challenging but massive fun to watch....and Bhangra is one of those "it's for everyone" cultural dances that would work no matter who did it.

[4Nessie]

9 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

No, you're not the only one who thinks like that. I think that having this type of expression of the music, where skater is conveying meaning and not just going through the motions, is actually a very important part of the sport. If it was only about the motions and the skills, why have music at all? Why not be like gymnastics, where the routines are traditionally performed without music? 

 

But skating does have music, and therefore a skater's ability to understand, express, and convey the meaning of the music matters greatly.  Thus it becomes important for skaters to choose music that works for them... something Yuzu is very good at...

 

Exactly. Yuzu nails it. We live in a great skating era, where Yuzu provides us with his Yuzu-mojo. But after watching Yuzu, you sometimes look for similar feeling with other skaters, where you can't find it. However, each season is better and better and young skaters are trying to express that as well, Yuzu being their idol. I am looking forward to see all those skaters grow up and show us their own magic...

[4Nessie]

47 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I think it would be absolutely wonderful to see a males singles skater (not necessarily Zu but anyone who's up for it) do a proper Bhangra routine on skates.

 

It would be so much fun to watch if done properly. 

Also, I would like to see more variability in music choices. There are so many music gems out there and everyone is still doing R&Js, POTOs, Carmens, Tango de Roxanne, generic soldier costume programs, ... I get that... you have to make the audience happy. But I hate the assumption that you have to skate to something people are familiar with to have success...

[Sombreuil]

2 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

When people say a skater's not 'balletic', don't they usually mean that the skater has terrible body lines though? Like, their arms are stiff or their posture's bad or something?

Usually they have a particular axe to grind for another skater that has some ballet training- the young Yuzuru’s ‘noodly’ posture kept being referred to some time after he remedied it, whereas the likes of Zagitova and Nathan Chen were anointed with the ‘balletic’ title by the media as soon as they hit seniors, and as someone who has recently been binge watching Fonteyn/Makarova/ Guillem not to mention Bruhn/Nureyev/ Mukhamedov they really aren’t, even to the extent that it is possible on ice skates.  I don’t blame the skaters - to me their ex choices seem to indicate that it’s not a claim they would make for themselves, but the media sees ballet training , hears/sees ballet music/costuming and its a convenient way to give artistic credit where it isn’t really due- look X isn’t just a technician, see how balletic he/she is!

[Murieleirum]

16 hours ago, 4Nessie said:

 

I agree to some extend. But my opinion on music choices is a bit different maybe. I think that a skater should choose his music for some reason. To show something through that music. If you choose Irish music, than you should show something that is specific for it, otherwise you could choose anything and skate the same program to it. That's the main problem imo. Many skaters choose music that they like for some reason, but they are not able to express it fully.

 

We are super spoiled by Yuzuru. No skater really thinks about their musical choices connected to the meaning of the performance which is exclusively tied to the skater's personal history - like Yuzuru does. Most skaters try to choose a music that makes them emotional AT BEST! But Yuzuru has a "bigger picture" wiseness to his choices that is typical of geniuses. We cannot expect everyone to be as ambitious as him. But we could expect for the difference to be noticed by most technicians and experts of the sport... but then, only because they know skating, doesn't mean they are sensitive enough to recognize a vision that goes beyond skating. (Disregard that, they don't even know skating lol +1 Twizzle 3A) 

[kaeryth]

Japanese survey! Google translate says: They asked 52 Uni students who they think is a (Japanese) genius?

 

 

[rockstaryuzu]

5 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

Usually they have a particular axe to grind for another skater that has some ballet training- the young Yuzuru’s ‘noodly’ posture kept being referred to some time after he remedied it, whereas the likes of Zagitova and Nathan Chen were anointed with the ‘balletic’ title by the media as soon as they hit seniors, and as someone who has recently been binge watching Fonteyn/Makarova/ Guillem not to mention Bruhn/Nureyev/ Mukhamedov they really aren’t, even to the extent that it is possible on ice skates.  I don’t blame the skaters - to me their ex choices seem to indicate that it’s not a claim they would make for themselves, but the media sees ballet training , hears/sees ballet music/costuming and its a convenient way to give artistic credit where it isn’t really due- look X isn’t just a technician, see how balletic he/she is!

See now, I would have pegged  Chen as a skater people say isn't balletic enough. Guy looks like he never had a day's dance training in his life, and it's because his lines are often sloppy. Likewise with Zagitova, even at the Olympics. Although she was literally playing a ballerina, her elbows and knees were sticking out when they shouldn't have been, and her posture would sometimes collapse.

 

I know just enough about ballet to know what people should look like when they're being 'balletic'. To my mind, Jason Brown actually exemplifies the term. And Yuzu has almost perfect lines but IMO when he was younger he would get carried away by his music and get a little wild and lose control of his arms a bit. 

 

 

Also, @kaeryth : Yuzu is unquestionably a genius. He has all the criteria for it. I approve of this poll.

[micaelis]

10 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

Usually they have a particular axe to grind for another skater that has some ballet training- the young Yuzuru’s ‘noodly’ posture kept being referred to some time after he remedied it, whereas the likes of Zagitova and Nathan Chen were anointed with the ‘balletic’ title by the media as soon as they hit seniors, and as someone who has recently been binge watching Fonteyn/Makarova/ Guillem not to mention Bruhn/Nureyev/ Mukhamedov they really aren’t, even to the extent that it is possible on ice skates.  I don’t blame the skaters - to me their ex choices seem to indicate that it’s not a claim they would make for themselves, but the media sees ballet training , hears/sees ballet music/costuming and its a convenient way to give artistic credit where it isn’t really due- look X isn’t just a technician, see how balletic he/she is!

As someone who has a serious interest in ballet extending back over half a century I agree that there is a tendency to call a skater 'balletic' simply if he or she has had some (usually minimal) ballet training.  Actually, I would have to say that except for upper body and arm position it is very difficult to transfer ballet to ice, simply because skaters can glide and dancers can't.  That simple difference means all the difference in the world.  To me the attribute of 'balletic' is more appropriate if by that one means a close coordination between music and motion and a focus on the movement of all parts of the body in the choreography.  If that is the case then 'balletic' would be an appropriate adjective even if the skater has had no formal ballet training.  In short, figure skating is dancing on ice, dancing with its own particular aesthetic and the skaters who realize that are the ones who are usually well up in the PCS points. 

 

As far as why 'balletic' is the term most often used rather than associating figure skating with some other form of dance, I think it is because ballet is the one dance form most closely associated with aerial work and also a dance form with its own highly evolved and catalogued system of movements, just as in figure skating.  In the end, though, one has to say that of all those skaters currently in the elite category Yuzu is the most balletic.  His choreography is always the densest and most detailed of all the current crop of male skaters and it is reflected in his PCS numbers.  Whether he has had ballet training (I'm not sure here) is irrelevant.  The fact is that Yuzu is a skater who has mastered the aesthetic of ice skating and whether that is 'balletic' is also irrelevant.  I'm reminded of a statement made by a young and super-gifted ballet dancer in a novel I've been working on when he declares his intention in his dancing - I want to make my body sing.  Yuzu, by that standard, is the best vocalist around. 

[Sombreuil]

1 hour ago, rockstaryuzu said:

See now, I would have pegged  Chen as a skater people say isn't balletic enough. Guy looks like he never had a day's dance training in his life, and it's because his lines are often sloppy. Likewise with Zagitova, even at the Olympics. Although she was literally playing a ballerina, her elbows and knees were sticking out when they shouldn't have been, and her posture would sometimes collapse.

 

I know just enough about ballet to know what people should look like when they're being 'balletic'. To my mind, Jason Brown actually exemplifies the term. And Yuzu has almost perfect lines but IMO when he was younger he would get carried away by his music and get a little wild and lose control of his arms a bit. 

 

 

Also, @kaeryth : Yuzu is unquestionably a genius. He has all the criteria for it. I approve of this poll.

I agree with you -  have a look at this 🤣

 

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2017/3/24/nathan-chen-nureyev-ballet-figure-skating-world-championships

[4Nessie]

7 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I agree with you -  have a look at this 🤣

 

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2017/3/24/nathan-chen-nureyev-ballet-figure-skating-world-championships

 

Ugh... I don't know.

I know he is talented and all that, but all those exaggerating articles about him made me dislike Nathan even before he started to skate properly. It's really a shame. He could have been good. But I don't thing such pressure was a wise thing to do for his career.

 

So yeah,  everyone can talk about skaters being balletic, but it doesn't mean very much. Sadly, there are people that don't recognize quality in movement and they have to rely on judges and commentaries. How could they learn to recognize quality when some judges give +1 to quality elements?

In many cases, reputation is more important than quality. It's quite sad.

[yuzuangel]

10 minutes ago, 4Nessie said:

all those exaggerating articles about him made me dislike Nathan even before he started to skate properly. It's really a shame. 

Ugh this has made me dislike many a skater. Even though it's not at all their fault.